Malzhan Growth

[auburnphan 6,050]

3 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

I don't know that it was written or just spoken, but I can tell you that one of them was from David Pollack in a discussion, I believe on the SEC Network, leading up to either the SEC or National championship game. (you'll have to pardon me... it's been 4 years and chemo messes with your brain).

Here... I found a thread about it here... 

 

Gus did not invent the read option, he gets credit for having it in the game plan, having a superior athlete to run the read option makes it great.  Also K-State and its history with Snyder basically running the read option from 1989 until now minus 3 years off it is very likely that Nick could have had the same if not more success in the Big 12.  Rich Rodriguez gets credit for the zone read play out of the shot gun.  I just don't hand out the word genius like participation trophies.  Gus is a great offensive mind, but genius, nope.

 

http://www.auburntigers.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/091714aaa.html

[Strychnine 1,802]

3 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

While I can see where you are coming from Re: Cam, you have to keep in mind that Marshall was, by all accounts, a middle of the road defensive back who, while he excelled in JuCo, didn't have the size to play QB in the SEC. Gus built the perfect offense around him to make him as successful as he was.  Had he gone to K-State, like a lot of his family wanted him to, it's doubtful he would have had near the success, if he would have even won the start.

Don't forget, in 2013, sportscasters were referring to our offensive scheme as "cheating" because it was so hard to defend. While it used elements of decades old schemes, no one had seen anything exactly like it.

 

They may have had a point.  Mizzou had a rather good defense that season, and they could do absolutely nothing against it.  They probably felt cheated.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, auburnphan said:

Gus did not invent the read option, he gets credit for having it in the game plan, having a superior athlete to run the read option makes it great.  Also K-State and its history with Snyder basically running the read option from 1989 until now minus 3 years off it is very likely that Nick could have had the same if not more success in the Big 12.  Rich Rodriguez gets credit for the zone read play out of the shot gun.  I just don't hand out the word genius like participation trophies.  Gus is a great offensive mind, but genius, nope.

500 yards rushing and 59 points in a conference title game, and there might not have been a legit NFL starter on that roster except Jay Prosch. 

 

[auburnphan 6,050]

Just now, McLoofus said:

500 yards rushing and 59 points in a conference title game, and there might not have been a legit NFL starter on that roster except Jay Prosch. 

 

does that make you a genius?   I said he is a great offensive mind, where is your beef?

[McLoofus 35,182]

5 minutes ago, auburnphan said:

does that make you a genius?   I said he is a great offensive mind, where is your beef?

That makes you a guy who used the tools at hand better than the vast majority of coaches would have. It seems that maybe you agree with that and Nick Marshall doesn't deserve all the credit for that 2013 offense, after all. No beef with that.  

[auburn4ever 1,266]

We'll just see how much Gus has really grown during his 5th year @ Auburn.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, auburnphan said:

Gus did not invent the read option, he gets credit for having it in the game plan, having a superior athlete to run the read option makes it great.  Also K-State and its history with Snyder basically running the read option from 1989 until now minus 3 years off it is very likely that Nick could have had the same if not more success in the Big 12.  Rich Rodriguez gets credit for the zone read play out of the shot gun.  I just don't hand out the word genius like participation trophies.  Gus is a great offensive mind, but genius, nope.

Ummmm... when or where did I say Gus invented the read option? What I said was that Gus took schemes that were decades old and used them in a way that no one had seen. He also incorporated elements of his HUNH, which he wrote the book on.

The play of the O-line was actually the most unique part of our 2013 offense. He took the tells that most defensive coordinators use to determine run or pass and flipped them. That was the main point that Pollak was discussing when he called it "cheating", because Gus was legally pushing O-Linemen down field, just enough to make the defensive backfield think run, but not so far as to have and illegal man down field. No one had faced that, so it made it very hard to defend until coordinators had time to really analyze it. That's also why Saban has been lobbying for years to get the downfield rule changed to 1 yard instead of 3, because he hates trying to defend it even now. 

On top of that, the way we executed the read-option, and the speed at which we ran it gave coordinators fits and brought around defensive tactics like crashing the mesh point, which are now causing teams to step away from the read-option as s main weapon.

[auburnphan 6,050]

Just now, McLoofus said:

That makes you a guy who used the tools at hand better than the vast majority of coaches would have. It seems that maybe you agree with that Nick Marshall doesn't deserve all the credit for that 2013 offense, after all. No beef with that.  

A little more talent on that offense than I remembered.   Giving credit and calling someone a genius are two different things

RB's on roster that made NFL:   Mason, Grant , Barber, Payne

WR's on roster that made NFL:  Coates, Louis

TE:  Uzomah

OL:  Dismukes, Slade, Robinson, Coleman, 

I know all did not play that season.

 

[Warbird82 160]

20 hours ago, homersapien said:

NOOOOO!

Bring back black shoes!

(#1 is OK though.)

I can go with the black shoes.    So...does this mean you're not for bringing back the shadowed jersey numbers from the Bowden years?

[McLoofus 35,182]

32 minutes ago, auburnphan said:

Giving credit and calling someone a genius are two different things

I agree. There are almost no football coaches that are geniuses, but plenty of them have moments of genius. 

I'm just glad that you're giving him some credit whereas you said that you don't in your initial response on the subject. 

[meh130 1,043]

On 8/23/2017 at 10:58 AM, gr82b4au said:

Go rewatch the 2013 SEC championship game and listen to them talk about how every college football program will want to copy AU's offense because it was unstoppable. I have problems with Gus but I will give him 100% credit for 2013. Gus designed his offense around a player that could execute it perfectly. 

True. But big parts of that were Greg Robinson, Tre Mason, Nick Marshall, and Jay Prosch. Marshall was a magician with his sleight of hand on the read option, and once we wore a defense down, the power running plays were unstoppable.

[meh130 1,043]

On 8/23/2017 at 2:29 PM, lionheartkc said:

Ummmm... when or where did I say Gus invented the read option? What I said was that Gus took schemes that were decades old and used them in a way that no one had seen. He also incorporated elements of his HUNH, which he wrote the book on.

The play of the O-line was actually the most unique part of our 2013 offense. He took the tells that most defensive coordinators use to determine run or pass and flipped them. That was the main point that Pollak was discussing when he called it "cheating", because Gus was legally pushing O-Linemen down field, just enough to make the defensive backfield think run, but not so far as to have and illegal man down field. No one had faced that, so it made it very hard to defend until coordinators had time to really analyze it. That's also why Saban has been lobbying for years to get the downfield rule changed to 1 yard instead of 3, because he hates trying to defend it even now. 

On top of that, the way we executed the read-option, and the speed at which we ran it gave coordinators fits and brought around defensive tactics like crashing the mesh point, which are now causing teams to step away from the read-option as s main weapon.

These are great points. I would add, Malzahn would move and shift the read defender on the read option, and Nick Marshall was extremely good and being able to handle those changes. I first noticed this against Tennessee. We went from reading the crashing OLB/DE and sending the H-Back to block the scraping ILB, to reading the scraping ILB, and using the H-Back to block the crashing OLB/DE. It completely confused TN.

Go back and look at the first TD in the 2013 Iron Bowl. UAT decided to defend the zone read by forcing the RB handoff. The had the OLB drift out to take the QB, and the ILB scraped to the inside rather than the outside, so he could take Mason. We flipped the play on that drive, the OLB drifted out, the ILB scraped inside, Prosch sealed the OLB, and Marshall took it to the house.

I don't think many teams had seen that kind of stuff before that year. We did very little inside zone read with Cam--we did more outsize zone read (aka, "Inverted Veer") with him.

The Marshall/Mason combination was a rare event, and Malzahn playbooked them perfectly.

[gr82b4au 5,568]

6 minutes ago, meh130 said:

True. But big parts of that were Greg Robinson, Tre Mason, Nick Marshall, and Jay Prosch. Marshall was a magician with his sleight of hand on the read option, and once we wore a defense down, the power running plays were unstoppable.

Yes we have to have players but I don't think people realize how bad we were in 2012. Worst Au team I have ever seen bad. Then he took a DB, made him a QB, and had one of the most prolific offenses in SEC/AU history. We designed the offense around what NM was good at and, well, we were freaking unstoppable. Like I said, Gus has many flaws and there are times I am not the biggest fan but what he did that year with that team after what I witnessed in 2012 was incredible and he deserves credit. I give him crap when he screws up (like against UGA recently) so I will give him props when he deserves it. 

[Joeythemooch 11]

Im new here but it seemed to me that gus didn't trust either his QB or his tackles, or both. When he has that distrust he appears to try to over compensate with cute plays which lead to personnel groupings that tip the play to everyone but him. Just my opinion 

 

[jAUSon 2,836]

29 minutes ago, Joeythemooch said:

Im new here but it seemed to me that gus didn't trust either his QB or his tackles, or both. When he has that distrust he appears to try to over compensate with cute plays which lead to personnel groupings that tip the play to everyone but him. Just my opinion 

 

Welcome. 

[DAG 33,997]

12 hours ago, gr82b4au said:

Yes we have to have players but I don't think people realize how bad we were in 2012. Worst Au team I have ever seen bad. Then he took a DB, made him a QB, and had one of the most prolific offenses in SEC/AU history. We designed the offense around what NM was good at and, well, we were freaking unstoppable. Like I said, Gus has many flaws and there are times I am not the biggest fan but what he did that year with that team after what I witnessed in 2012 was incredible and he deserves credit. I give him crap when he screws up (like against UGA recently) so I will give him props when he deserves it. 

Well yes it was his players from that 2012 squad . He deserves credit for sure but it's not like he came in and won with someone else's players. 2012 team just had bad coaching combined with an offense that wasn't suited for them. Also, people tend to forget that in 2011 the offense was shaky at best. To be frank we needed a new dynamic QB because KF wasn't going to cut it. The next step in CGM career is continuation of success at the QB position without the need to go the JUCO route continuously . We have JG coming in. Malik Willis looks promising . Potential for JF. Potentially Bo Nix. It's time for that next step.

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 hours ago, DAG said:

Well yes it was his players from that 2012 squad . He deserves credit for sure but it's not like he came in and won with someone else's players. 2012 team just had bad coaching combined with an offense that wasn't suited for them. Also, people tend to forget that in 2011 the offense was shaky at best. To be frank we needed a new dynamic QB because KF wasn't going to cut it. The next step in CGM career is continuation of success at the QB position without the need to go the JUCO route continuously . We have JG coming in. Malik Willis looks promising . Potential for JF. Potentially Bo Nix. It's time for that next step.

*Mostly agree with the last half of that.

And I don't think any reasonable fans are asking him to trot out a Cam, or a Nick, or a Stidham every year. Nor is anyone asking him to reproduce what Ohio State pulled off a couple years ago. I personally am just asking him to have a Chris Todd behind a Malik Willis behind a Sean White, or whatever. Not a Woody Barrett behind a John Franklin behind a Jeremy Johnson behind a Sean White.

Auburn football should be respectable every season and even just adequate QB play should be enough to guarantee that. And, yes, we should be in a title hunt every few years with very good- or better- QB play. 

*I say "mostly" because if there's a juco guy who's better than our guys, is a good kid and wants to come to Auburn, I'm fine with it. What I'm not fine with is him *having* to go the juco route because we don't have any adequate talent and because he has to find a plug-and-play guy he doesn't have to teach the position to.

 

 

[DAG 33,997]

3 hours ago, McLoofus said:

*Mostly agree with the last half of that.

And I don't think any reasonable fans are asking him to trot out a Cam, or a Nick, or a Stidham every year. Nor is anyone asking him to reproduce what Ohio State pulled off a couple years ago. I personally am just asking him to have a Chris Todd behind a Malik Willis behind a Sean White, or whatever. Not a Woody Barrett behind a John Franklin behind a Jeremy Johnson behind a Sean White.

Auburn football should be respectable every season and even just adequate QB play should be enough to guarantee that. And, yes, we should be in a title hunt every few years with very good- or better- QB play. 

*I say "mostly" because if there's a juco guy who's better than our guys, is a good kid and wants to come to Auburn, I'm fine with it. What I'm not fine with is him *having* to go the juco route because we don't have any adequate talent and because he has to find a plug-and-play guy he doesn't have to teach the position to.

 

 

Yep always go for the best player no matter what and build depth .

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 minutes ago, DAG said:

Yep always go for the best player no matter what and build depth .

I re-read your comment and realized I was only saying the same thing you were, lol.