Trump’s Attack On Black Athletes May Bring a League to Its Feet

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

15 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Did you mean to quote this post again? What does this have to do with Idolatry? It’s fine if a group needs to use the flag in protest. Vietnam Vets have burned it themselves to make their point against the government.  

 But the “protest” has lasted for well over a year and the usage of the flag as the backdrop for their protests isn’t working. It’s not really a necessary evil at this point. They may need to find a different instrument to get their point across. 

Thank you.

[ArgoEagle 1,831]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Holy cow!

You don't see the irony in such statements, do you?  

I see the irony in you.

[aujeff11 6,243]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

It has everything to do with idolatry. 

It really doesn’t. The people that think the anthem or the flag should be respected aren’t necessarily using the flag as an idol. It’s absurd to say otherwise. 

 

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Finally, the effectiveness of such protest is not relevant to this discussion

Why not?

You’re so dismissive of the opponent’s views as being the veil to inherent racism in nature, you fail to see that there may be a group of people that don’t want their flag fruitlessly disrespected over and over again when it doesn’t have to be. 

[homersapien 11,513]

6 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

I see the irony in you.

You are totally out of your league.

[homersapien 11,513]

26 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

It really doesn’t. The people that think the anthem or the flag should be respected aren’t necessarily using the flag as an idol. It’s absurd to say otherwise. 

 

I am talking about the people who do view the flag itself as sancrosacnt.  Not the ones who agree with us.

[Mims44 1,896]

9 minutes ago, homersapien said:

That's exactly the sort of thinking that gets us into messes like Viet Nam. 

Or excuses basic violations of the actual principals we supposedly hold as sacred, such as imprisoning Japanese-Americans - or even more significantly - supporting racial discrimination.

It's patriotism gone bad - my country right or wrong.

Our country is not determined by an external diety.   Our country is determined by it's citizens.  WE are ultimately responsible for it's laws and it's actions.

To hold the actions of our country as "sacrosanct" is to abrogate one's own personal resposibility for them.  That's the opposite of patriotism.

This is very much off the point I was trying to make. If you can be understanding of someone who gets angry at seeing a bible burning but not someone who gets angry at a flag burning then you are failing to empathize.

To your quote, you could also say that had the PTB held the US constitution as sacred there never would have been prison camps for Japanese Americans. If you believe ALL men are created equal you also would not have racial discrimination.

 

Also, a deity is not needed for a religion. There's a bunch of religions out there without them... also not all religions need to be unchanging and not all followers of religions have to be unquestioning.

[homersapien 11,513]

6 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

This is very much off the point I was trying to make. If you can be understanding of someone who gets angry at seeing a bible burning but not someone who gets angry at a flag burning then you are failing to empathize.

To your quote, you could also say that had the PTB held the US constitution as sacred there never would have been prison camps for Japanese Americans. If you believe ALL men are created equal you also would not have racial discrimination.

 

Also, a deity is not needed for a religion. There's a bunch of religions out there without them... also not all religions need to be unchanging and not all followers of religions have to be unquestioning.

I don't get angry at them. 

I actually do understand them.  They are being ruled by an emotional response instead of their intellect.  I can empathize with that.

But that doesn't mean they aren't wrong.

[aujeff11 6,243]

9 minutes ago, homersapien said:

OK fine.

I'm not going to waste time with you trying to argue the obvious.

 

You’re such a cop-out. Try it again:

Which is? 

Maybe you can show me how idolatry is pertinent to the discussion as well.  

 

 

 

[homersapien 11,513]

19 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

Why not?

You’re so dismissive of the opponent’s views as being the veil to inherent racism in nature, you fail to see that there may be a group of people that don’t want their flag fruitlessly disrespected over and over again when it doesn’t have to be. 

No, that's a mischaracterization.

I am dismissive of people who are totally unempathetic to a black man using this ritual - which is afterall, designed to make us reflect on being American - to protest the reality of racism in our country.

I never said such lack of empathy constitutes personal racism.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

15 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

It really doesn’t. The people that think the anthem or the flag should be respected aren’t necessarily using the flag as an idol. It’s absurd to say otherwise. 

I didn't say they were.  I asked the question, at what point does one cross the line from merely honoring and into idolatry?  Is there a line?  That question has yet to be answered.

 

[homersapien 11,513]

Just now, TitanTiger said:

I didn't say they were.  I asked the question, at what point does one cross the line from merely honoring and into idolatry?  Is there a line?  That question has yet to be answered.

 

Gotta watch Jeff.  He's really into assumptive extrapolation.

[homersapien 11,513]

2 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

You’re such a cop-out. Try it again:

Which is? 

Maybe you can show me how idolatry is pertinent to the discussion as well.  

 

 

 

I retracted that post.  Please see the replacement(s).

 

[aujeff11 6,243]

Just now, homersapien said:

I am dismissive of people who are totally unempathetic to a black man using this ritual

The black man made his point. How much longer is he going to have to make his point? What’s the end game? 

[aujeff11 6,243]

3 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I didn't say they were.  I asked the question, at what point does one cross the line from merely honoring and into idolatry?  Is there a line?  That question has yet to be answered.

 

 I think there is some distance between the two. 

[homersapien 11,513]

5 minutes ago, aujeff11 said:

The black man made his point. How much longer is he going to have to make his point? What’s the end game? 

I don't know.  You don't know.  He doesn't know.

Maybe until we actually become a country without racism.  Not until we have all interbred with each other, live in the same neighborhoods and go to the same churches and night clubs.

 

[TitanTiger 20,542]

Just now, aujeff11 said:

 I think there is some distance between the two. 

Noted, and I agree to an extent.  But it still doesn't answer the question.

[homersapien 11,513]

1 hour ago, aujeff11 said:

 I think there is some distance between the two. 

Hardly.  

That's the basis of this debate.  Again, have you read Argo's posts?  They are exactly why Titan mentioned it.

Is the flag "the thing"?  Or is "the thing" what it represents?

If it's the latter, then using it as a symbol for protest is appropriate.

[Mims44 1,896]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I don't know.  You don't know.  He doesn't know.

Maybe until we actually become a country without racism.  Not until we have all interbred with each other and go to the same churches and night clubs.

 

Right around the corner I'm sure.

 

What we need to do is discover aliens... discover aliens and the first footage of them is the aliens pissing on the US flag.

 

[aujeff11 6,243]

6 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Maybe until we actually become a country without racism

I respect your idealistic but impractical views. The NFL won’t exist at that point if you’re searching for a non racist country with reverse racism laws.

6 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Not until we have all interbred with each other and go to the same churches and night c

 What about same schools, too? 

[ArgoEagle 1,831]

55 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You are totally out of your league.

I know; I'm major league, your single A minors.

[homersapien 11,513]

23 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

I know; I'm major league, your single A minors.

Got a draft of that major league law making disrespecting the flag a crime yet?

[SaltyTiger 7,908]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

Noted, and I agree to an extent.  But it still doesn't answer the question.

In the Christian or Biblical sense that line would be said idol coming between you and God. i.e. Abraham sacrificing Isaac was about idolatry was't it. 

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

45 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

In the Christian or Biblical sense that line would be said idol coming between you and God. i.e. Abraham sacrificing Isaac was about idolatry was't it. 

Good example but I doubt Titan will agree. Another example in a secular world is......as an Auburn grad I honor her every chance I get but I don't idolize her. I love and honor my family but I don't idolize them.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

4 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

In the Christian or Biblical sense that line would be said idol coming between you and God. i.e. Abraham sacrificing Isaac was about idolatry was't it. 

Expound.  Come between you and God in what way?  To what extent?

[aujeff11 6,243]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Expound.  Come between you and God in what way?  To what extent?

That’s actually what I was taught in Bible school as well. As in anything that can come between you and your relationship with God. The belief is that God is a jealous  God and wants to be the only God in people’s life

Money is a big God. Work, too. My brother is 6’6, tats all over, does sound for bands and I’m pretty sure he’d admit music as his idol. Heck, even this site can be considered an idol.