The Shooting of Adam Toledo

[TexasTiger 12,949]

7 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

It’s interesting that the police are now publishing body cam footage to try to quell the false narrative that has already promulgated.  

When they do the right thing, the camera is their friend.

[I_M4_AU 7,857]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

When they do the right thing, the camera is their friend.

Of course if they perceive they have done the right thing, but that is the point.  The police want to get ahead of the narrative that will most certainly be skewed, as it is in this case, to calm people down.

Most of the controversial times, like in the Chauvin case, the incident is a long drawn out situation and people in the crowd are filming it with their smart phones.  That footage is published before the police even look at what the police officers body cam shows.  Now the police are trying to control the narrative, unlike in the past.

I am sure the police unions, in the past, wanted that footage to be held without being published.  Now I would think the unions are just trying to protect their police officers.

If they did the wrong thing, it wouldn’t matter if they show it or not.

[AUDub 11,153]

On the other hand, I have personally seen an officer here in Birmingham employ warning shots.

Back when I worked at Century Plaza, there was a spate of break-ins with cars in our lot, mostly employees since those were the closest to the big hill that bordered the mall to the northwest and gate city (a bad 'hood) to the southeast. Mall security really kept an eye on that area.

One night I stepped out to smoke a cigarette outside the 2nd floor (Sears) western entrance, close to closing, when a crowd of people poured out behind me to watch the show. Mall security had caught some kids in the act. One of those kids managed to get to the hill and probably to freedom. Other one got corralled. He ran under the stairs qe were standing on toward Crestwood and pulled a gun from his wasteband. Mall security obviously backed off immediately. Kid then ran toward the northern corner of the old auto center.

About this time Birmingham PD came roaring around the southern corner of the mall proper and one of the funniest things I've ever seen occurred. Kid disappeared around the northwest corner of the auto center into the tight alley we had back there. Officer in his cruiser followed. About 10 seconds later the kid comes back from behind the building and SOMEHOW that officer had gotten that big ass Crown Vic turned around back there. I'll die wondering how he did that so damn fast.

Kid runs toward that hill which had about a half football field worth of rip rap on it (stone to prevent erosion). Officer gets out of the car and from behind the door of the car lets loose 4 shots into that rip rap, then yells "GET ON THE GROUND, ************, OR I WILL KILL YOU WHERE YOU STAND!"

Kid dropped like a stone lol. He had ditched the gun behind the auto-center and the police found it later. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by AUDub

[AU9377 4,967]

47 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

See the slowed video? He may have saved a life.

You are right.  I had not seen the full video when I made that comment.

[AU9377 4,967]

50 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Happened too fast. Girl in pink was about to have a new orifice.

I think warning shots are something police should do more often in the certain circumstances, like if loss of life isn't imminent, you know where you're aiming and all that, but I don't fault the officer shooting to kill given what was happening here.

I agree, now that I have seen the video.

[AUDub 11,153]

Ah well nevertheless 

What a grossly inappropriate thing to tweet. Guy saved a black girl from getting stabbed, LeBron James puts him on blast. 

Celebrities are so damn dumb. 

[AUDub 11,153]

Oops memory holed

[autigeremt 6,643]

Society is in a very bad place right now. I wish people would get it together.

[TexasTiger 12,949]

Seeing some incredibly stupid takes today...

[GoAU 1,600]

9 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

https://www.al.com/news/2021/04/columbus-ohio-police-fatally-shoot-makhia-bryant-16-release-body-cam-footage.html

 

Another police killing, this time a 16 yo girl that was swinging around a little knife in a fight with another girl. Cops shows up on the scene, gets out of his car, pulls out his gun and just pops her 4 times. The fight had already been going on for a while before the cop arrived and nobody had been killed or wounded by the girl yet.

He Couldn't think of another way to disarm an emotionally charged teenage girl?  It's like the cops in Grand Theft Auto that'll gun you down for running a red light lol. 

 

 

 

 

I would love to think you're being sarcastic, but I'm sure you are not.   The cop has no idea what has been going on, or for how long.  He got there and saw the girl trying to stab (kill) the other girl.  There was a clear threat to the other girl and he did the right thing, he ended the threat.  A "little" knife can be just as deadly as a big knife - there are numerous ways to be killed with a blade well under an inch.  That girl is dead because she did something incredibly stupid, period.   it is her fault, and no one else's.  We keep leaving to roles of the "victims" out of the equation and that's a mistake.  Cops that are wrong should be held accountable, but the entire situation needs to be taken in appropriate context and people need to keep quiet until the facts come out before the lynch mobs start forming.... 

8 hours ago, AU9377 said:

Anybody ever hear of firing a warning shot?

Sure - it's a horribly bad idea.  Those shots have consequences too.  In this situation, he fires a warning shot, and the other girl gets killed - is that right?  The "warning shot" is when the cruiser showed up - she ignored it.

8 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

I generally agree about warning shots (where might those bullets go?). But some cases involve multiple shots that seem way more than needed for the perceived threat.

One shot is rarely enough to stop someone in their tracks - you fire until the threat is no longer a threat.  The person with the knife is much less of a priority than saving the other girl at that point from the officers perspective.  He was clearly trying to save the girls life.

[AUDub 11,153]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Seeing some incredibly stupid takes today...

Nearly 500000 followers...

 

Bunch of galaxy brained morons out there. "What's a knife fight among kids? It's just a stab wound. How bad could that be?" 

Edited April 22, 2021 by AUDub

[TexasTiger 12,949]

42 minutes ago, GoAU said:

I would love to think you're being sarcastic, but I'm sure you are not.   The cop has no idea what has been going on, or for how long.  He got there and saw the girl trying to stab (kill) the other girl.  There was a clear threat to the other girl and he did the right thing, he ended the threat.  A "little" knife can be just as deadly as a big knife - there are numerous ways to be killed with a blade well under an inch.  That girl is dead because she did something incredibly stupid, period.   it is her fault, and no one else's.  We keep leaving to roles of the "victims" out of the equation and that's a mistake.  Cops that are wrong should be held accountable, but the entire situation needs to be taken in appropriate context and people need to keep quiet until the facts come out before the lynch mobs start forming.... 

Sure - it's a horribly bad idea.  Those shots have consequences too.  In this situation, he fires a warning shot, and the other girl gets killed - is that right?  The "warning shot" is when the cruiser showed up - she ignored it.

One shot is rarely enough to stop someone in their tracks - you fire until the threat is no longer a threat.  The person with the knife is much less of a priority than saving the other girl at that point from the officers perspective.  He was clearly trying to save the girls life.

I didn’t reference this instance as an example.

[AU9377 4,967]

2 hours ago, GoAU said:

I would love to think you're being sarcastic, but I'm sure you are not.   The cop has no idea what has been going on, or for how long.  He got there and saw the girl trying to stab (kill) the other girl.  There was a clear threat to the other girl and he did the right thing, he ended the threat.  A "little" knife can be just as deadly as a big knife - there are numerous ways to be killed with a blade well under an inch.  That girl is dead because she did something incredibly stupid, period.   it is her fault, and no one else's.  We keep leaving to roles of the "victims" out of the equation and that's a mistake.  Cops that are wrong should be held accountable, but the entire situation needs to be taken in appropriate context and people need to keep quiet until the facts come out before the lynch mobs start forming.... 

Sure - it's a horribly bad idea.  Those shots have consequences too.  In this situation, he fires a warning shot, and the other girl gets killed - is that right?  The "warning shot" is when the cruiser showed up - she ignored it.

One shot is rarely enough to stop someone in their tracks - you fire until the threat is no longer a threat.  The person with the knife is much less of a priority than saving the other girl at that point from the officers perspective.  He was clearly trying to save the girls life.

You are correct in this situation.  However, there are many situations where a lesser degree of force is an option and it is overlooked.  After watching the entire video, this was clearly a split second decision that had to be made and the shooting was justified.

[GoAU 1,600]

36 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

You are correct in this situation.  However, there are many situations where a lesser degree of force is an option and it is overlooked.  After watching the entire video, this was clearly a split second decision that had to be made and the shooting was justified.

Appreciate the honesty and open mind.  I agree these situations all must be reviewed honestly and objectively.  Trying to lump “all cops” into a bucket is no different than stereotyping any other group of people.  

[AUDub 11,153]

5 minutes ago, GoAU said:

Appreciate the honesty and open mind.  I agree these situations all must be reviewed honestly and objectively.  Trying to lump “all cops” into a bucket is no different than stereotyping any other group of people.  

There's very much a middle ground to be found between people that lionize the police in all cases and people that think all cops are bastards.

Yeah there are serious issues with policing in this country we need to rectify, but gaslighting every time a police officer employs force - even when it's reasonable, like the two cases we're discussing here - and acting like it's George Floyd all over again will do far more harm than good.

[GoAU 1,600]

3 minutes ago, AUDub said:

There's very much a middle ground to be found between people that lionize the police in all cases and people that think all cops are bastards.

Yeah there are serious issues with policing in this country we need to rectify, but gaslighting every time a police officer employs force - even when it's reasonable, like the two cases we're discussing here - and acting like it's George Floyd all over again will do far more harm than good.

Just out of curiosity - when you say “serious issues with policing” are you implying widespread systemic problems across the police force as a whole, or isolated, but serious issues?

I would say that given the number of police officers and the number of interactions with the population there are on a daily basis that the vast, vast majority of police officers do an exceptionally good job.  

[AUDub 11,153]

Just now, GoAU said:

Just out of curiosity - when you say “serious issues with policing” are you implying widespread systemic problems across the police force as a whole, or isolated, but serious issues?

Both. The isolated but serious issues happen, but the bigger problem is the lack of accountability and a system that favors them too heavily when they screw up or do something malicious and abusive of the public's trust. Internal Review Boards are generally a joke and it amounts to the foxes watching the henhouse. There's the fact that police are extremely hard to convict even when they absolutely commit a crime.

Add in mindsets like the thin blue line ("I'm a warrior, the last line of defense between order and chaos!), the increasing militarization of police departments across the country, policies that are implicitly or explicitly racist and/or classist, the tendency of police to cover each other's indiscretions and it's no wonder people have trust issues.

Just now, GoAU said:

I would say that given the number of police officers and the number of interactions with the population there are on a daily basis that the vast, vast majority of police officers do an exceptionally good job.  

Oh, no doubt. I think the vast majority of law enforcement are good, friendly people doing their job as best they can and just trying to get through life like the rest of us. There are plenty of well meaning, excellent police. But a bad system is a bad system, and it can be bad in spite of many of the people participating in it being good folks.

[WarEagle1983 2,185]

15 hours ago, AUDub said:

Happened too fast. Girl in pink was about to have a new orifice.

I think warning shots are something police should do more often in the certain circumstances, like if loss of life isn't imminent, you know where you're aiming and all that, but I don't fault the officer shooting to kill given what was happening here.

1. Glad GF got justice. 2. In regards to Toledo and this girl getting killed...I'm leaning towards it being justified at this point. Every case is not the same and I'm currently in the minority with many of my black counterparts regarding this girl's death. As a black man i understand too well about all of the issues but at the same time, not every case is the same. I always try to put myself in the place of people when i may have a different opinion to at least try to see where that person is coming from even if i don't agree. 

I'm sad that the young girl had to die but watching the full videos...what the heck was the officer supposed to do? Let the girl in the pink get stabbed even though she was the instigator? The threat may have initially been towards the deceased girl but that changed when she picked up a weapon. My biggest question/issue was her foster parents...ADULTS...who didn't deescalate the situation. A grown azz man literally kicked a young girl in the head! He along with the foster mother let that young girl run around with a knife and didn't try to block/hold or tell her to go back into the house. But when the officer shoots the girl...it's why did you shoot my baby? She's just a teen. Why are you as a man and father not trying to handle that situation? 

If those girls came over there to jump the deceased they should be charged with her murder in my opinion. People I know are saying self defense but she had the opportunity to stay in her home and wait on the police. It's just a complete mess of a situation but at this point the officer is less of the story in my opinion. He had to make a split decision with someone who was actually armed and getting ready to slice up a person. If i was in that situation i would hope an officer would use a gun versus a taser if someone is about to stab me. It all sucks but i hope we as a black community get the facts first and not just jump to conclusions. We made progress with the verdict but i don't want to take step backwards in crying wolf in situations that don't call for outrage. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by WarEagle1983

[AUDub 11,153]

4 hours ago, WarEagle1983 said:

what the heck was the officer supposed to do? Let the girl in the pink get stabbed even though she was the instigator?

If Twitter is any indication, he should have:

A. Pressed E to activate a bullet time sequence and shoot her in the leg or hand

B. Used his taser, beanbag shot or his baton

C. De-escalated the situation using kind language

D. Not shown up at all

E. Let the girls have it out and watch a girl get stabbed in front of him

[I_M4_AU 7,857]

What could have happened if the police were not there:

CINCINNATI —

A family is broken after a 13-year-old girl was stabbed to death in Winton Hills.

The teen's father said the pain is immeasurable and described her as the glue that held them all together.

"I held her. I watched her as she died. I watched her, you know. All I could do was just hold her, hold her," Maurice Jackson said.

Devastation, heartache and loss are all emotions that Jackson, Nyaira Givens' father, is feeling after her sudden death.

"I tried. I tried to stop the bleeding," Jackson said.

There are so many feelings he cannot escape, and many people wouldn't be able to either, after the loss of a child.

Cincinnati police said Givens was stabbed to death by another 13-year-old girl during a fight near the family's home on Topridge Place.

Prayers on Tuesday evening helped ease the heartache, but just barely.

"Just tried my best to protect her and be the father I could be, you know? I guess I didn't pay attention to all the other stuff that was going on around her," Jackson said.

He said his daughter was the second oldest of seven children.

He also said she helped keep the family together and loved school.

Jackson told WLWT his daughter was a freshman at Aiken High School and went to school with the girl who stabbed her.

https://www.wlwt.com/article/family-devastated-after-13-year-old-stabbed-by-former-friend-during-fight-dies/36180426#

Has the national media said much about this incident?  I haven’t heard much from BLM about this incident.  Do they not care if the murder is black on black?  Questions need to be asked of the BLM organization from a responsible media.

[I_M4_AU 7,857]

Another thought about the Columbus shooting; who called the police and what did they expect to happen?  Why were all the bystanders just standing around?  Is this type of behavior *normal* for the group of people that called the police?

Does BLM (the organization) want no interaction with the police if a black person is involved in a life and death situation?  What does BLM (the organization) envision as how the police should work and is that vision going to save black lives?

12 hours ago, AUDub said:

the bigger problem is the lack of accountability and a system that favors them too heavily when they screw up or do something malicious and abusive of the public's trust.

In the past, police have used the defense of training as to how they are viewed in interactions with the public that are deemed malicious by the public.  Over the years and, now with the Chauvin conviction, things have changed drastically.  The DOJ is investigating the Minneapolis Police and those finding will be interesting.  If a police officer can not use how they were trained as a defense, they will no longer believe in the training and will be left to their own devices as to how to proceed, until time new training is established.  In the meantime, it will take years to *unlearn* techniques that have been taught for decades.  Shooting at the largest mass of a perpetrator and shooting until there is not longer a threat, for example.

The President, for political gain (IMO), is championing that the country and the police are systematically racist and need whole sale changes.  It seems he also wants national guidelines for policing.  A federal guideline for Chicago isn’t going to word in Mooresville, NC and could turn my sleepy little town into Chicago.  I’m not sure that is going to work and will, eventually, cause more deaths to the black community.

I don’t trust the government to do the right thing here.

 

[CoffeeTiger 5,133]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

Another thought about the Columbus shooting; who called the police and what did they expect to happen?  Why were all the bystanders just standing around?  Is this type of behavior *normal* for the group of people that called the police?

Does BLM (the organization) want no interaction with the police if a black person is involved in a life and death situation?  What does BLM (the organization) envision as how the police should work and is that vision going to save black lives?

In the past, police have used the defense of training as to how they are viewed in interactions with the public that are deemed malicious by the public.  Over the years and, now with the Chauvin conviction, things have changed drastically.  The DOJ is investigating the Minneapolis Police and those finding will be interesting.  If a police officer can not use how they were trained as a defense, they will no longer believe in the training and will be left to their own devices as to how to proceed, until time new training is established.  In the meantime, it will take years to *unlearn* techniques that have been taught for decades.  Shooting at the largest mass of a perpetrator and shooting until there is not longer a threat, for example.

The President, for political gain (IMO), is championing that the country and the police are systematically racist and need whole sale changes.  It seems he also wants national guidelines for policing.  A federal guideline for Chicago isn’t going to word in Mooresville, NC and could turn my sleepy little town into Chicago.  I’m not sure that is going to work and will, eventually, cause more deaths to the black community.

I don’t trust the government to do the right thing here.

 

I mean it's not as if police training is overly rigorous or consistent. 

 

You can qualify to be a cop without even having a HS diploma. Just take a small skills test, then you have About 13~ weeks of police academy, a short period of on job training, and then maybe a few hours of refresher courses every year or so? Nobody really knows exactly because every department in every city in every state has different training requirements and different requirements for refresher training. 

 

You can get through police training and be on the streets by yourself faster than you can get through cosmetology school and be licensed to legally cut hair. 

 

[I_M4_AU 7,857]

25 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

You can qualify to be a cop without even having a HS diploma. Just take a small skills test, then you have About 13~ weeks of police academy, a short period of on job training, and then maybe a few hours of refresher courses every year or so? Nobody really knows exactly because every department in every city in every state has different training requirements and different requirements for refresher training. 

A police officer is a profession and going through a police academy is the way they are standardized.  If they can’t meet the standard, they don’t make it through the academy.  It is up to each instructor to hold the standards of that academy, I don’t see a lot of bad interactions with the public and police on a daily basis.  The police seem, for the most part, to be doing a good job.  It is going to be difficult to do their job if they are always 2nd guessed by the public and politicians who do not understand what training they have had and/or have never done the job.

A case in point;

Police officers in Chicago may soon require permission from a supervisor before pursuing a suspect on foot, Mayor Lori Lightfoot said Tuesday.

“No one should die as a result of a foot chase,” the mayor said.

Police methods have faced new scrutiny recently following the release last week of video footage from the March 29 police shooting death of 13-year-old Adam Toledo. The case has sparked new debate on police use of deadly force.

City Alderman Brian Hopkins told FOX 32 that city police already need a superior’s permission to launch a vehicle chase for a suspect. A new policy on foot chases would simply make the same policy apply to all chases.

Hopkins acknowledged the most obvious criticism that such a policy would likely attract: that a suspect on foot could be long gone in the time it would take an officer to get the required approval.

“The point would be moot then,” Hopkins noted, according to FOX 32.

The alderman added that police are seeing more vehicles flee from officers because suspects know about the permission policy.

Lightfoot also acknowledged that requiring an OK was a less-than-perfect solution.

“I don’t want people out there who are dangerous to think, ‘Well, if I just run, then I’m safe. I can continue to wreak havoc,’” the mayor said. “We can’t live in that world, either.”

https://nypost.com/2021/04/21/chicago-police-may-soon-need-supervisors-ok-to-chase-suspects-on-foot-mayor/

The Mayor of Chicago is trying to appease the mob by instituting a policy she knows in weak and that the criminal element in her city will take advantage of, she knows this, she said it herself.  She is actually enticing criminals to run from the police.  WTF?  This is what got Toledo and Wright killed.

I am sure policing can improve, but to trash a present system to fit it into a one size fits all type of system hasn’t worked.  Just look at the COVID-19 response from different states and you can see some states have done a better job than others in the deaths per million category just because the demographics are different.  Why would you force Montana to treat crime that same as NYC?

 

 

[WarEagle1983 2,185]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I mean it's not as if police training is overly rigorous or consistent. 

 

You can qualify to be a cop without even having a HS diploma. Just take a small skills test, then you have About 13~ weeks of police academy, a short period of on job training, and then maybe a few hours of refresher courses every year or so? Nobody really knows exactly because every department in every city in every state has different training requirements and different requirements for refresher training. 

 

You can get through police training and be on the streets by yourself faster than you can get through cosmetology school and be licensed to legally cut hair. 

 

Which is insane considering they have to power to take a person's life at any moment. 

[GoAU 1,600]

13 hours ago, WarEagle1983 said:

Which is insane considering they have to power to take a person's life at any moment. 

Not “at any moment”, but as a result of the actions of that person being arrested.     They do not “have to power” to use unjustified deadly force.