Decline

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Recently, there has been the introduction into several discussions of decaying morality as the root cause some of our problems.  I believe what is commonly considered as morality, is merely a symptom of a much larger moral, ethical, intellectual failure.

 

I will go a step further than the speaker is willing to go.  I see the failure as a bi-product of practicing capitalism in the most extreme sense.  When everything/everyone must be commoditized, capitalism becomes religion, money becomes god.  We serve the system, the system serves the powerful.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in capitalism but,,, with constraints/conditions.  Without them, the capitalists will destroy democracy, capitalism, our society, our world.  Please, think deeply, honestly about what a devout belief in capitalism did to bring about the Great Depression, think about what unbridled capitalism has done to the family, education, the media, the environment, civility, community, happiness. the church itself.

WE can still solve problems.  However, WE need to once again realize that humanity IS who we are.  When we adopt the idea that ideology is more important than humanity, we enslave ourselves to ideology.  We promote destruction through ideas that reflect, every man for himself, might makes right, survival of the fittest.  We destroy humanity through a philosophy that lowers our morality to the level of animal behavior.

In my humble opinion, it is not basic morality that should be so concerning, that is merely the symptom, it is our loss of a sense of humanity that will destroy us.  Grotesque inequality should never be a goal, should never be justifiable.  It is an atrocity against humanity, nature, liberty, society.

 

[autigeremt 6,686]

21 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Recently, there has been the introduction into several discussions of decaying morality as the root cause some of our problems.  I believe what is commonly considered as morality, is merely a symptom of a much larger moral, ethical, intellectual failure.

 

I will go a step further than the speaker is willing to go.  I see the failure as a bi-product of practicing capitalism in the most extreme sense.  When everything/everyone must be commoditized, capitalism becomes religion, money becomes god.  We serve the system, the system serves the powerful.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in capitalism but,,, with constraints/conditions.  Without them, the capitalists will destroy democracy, capitalism, our society, our world.  Please, think deeply, honestly about what a devout belief in capitalism did to bring about the Great Depression, think about what unbridled capitalism has done to the family, education, the media, the environment, civility, community, happiness. the church itself.

WE can still solve problems.  However, WE need to once again realize that humanity IS who we are.  When we adopt the idea that ideology is more important than humanity, we enslave ourselves to ideology.  We promote destruction through ideas that reflect, every man for himself, might makes right, survival of the fittest.  We destroy humanity through a philosophy that lowers our morality to the level of animal behavior.

In my humble opinion, it is not basic morality that should be so concerning, that is merely the symptom, it is our loss of a sense of humanity that will destroy us.  Grotesque inequality should never be a goal, should never be justifiable.  It is an atrocity against humanity, nature, liberty, society.

 

Some truth in that for sure. It's a disease that has left the duopoly rotten to the core. 

[aubaseball 2,648]

Sorry, but I don’t follow the logic of capitalism being the cause of the decay.   In a more simplistic way of looking at it, how does being able to go buy (say lumber) at either lowes, Home Depot or any lumber company a bad thing?  That is the essence of capitalism.   Equating capitalism to anything else is a stretch in my opinion.   

the downfall of what I see in society is a lack of personal responsibility, a feeling that someone is owed something or entitled to something.   The lack of respect for others.   The 24 hour news cycle stations that try and drive a wedge between both political parties.   The slow death of how churches play a role in local communities.  

 

[autigeremt 6,686]

5 hours ago, aubaseball said:

Sorry, but I don’t follow the logic of capitalism being the cause of the decay.   In a more simplistic way of looking at it, how does being able to go buy (say lumber) at either lowes, Home Depot or any lumber company a bad thing?  That is the essence of capitalism.   Equating capitalism to anything else is a stretch in my opinion.   

the downfall of what I see in society is a lack of personal responsibility, a feeling that someone is owed something or entitled to something.   The lack of respect for others.   The 24 hour news cycle stations that try and drive a wedge between both political parties.   The slow death of how churches play a role in local communities.  

 

Very well stated. 

[aubiefifty 16,903]

7 hours ago, aubaseball said:

Sorry, but I don’t follow the logic of capitalism being the cause of the decay.   In a more simplistic way of looking at it, how does being able to go buy (say lumber) at either lowes, Home Depot or any lumber company a bad thing?  That is the essence of capitalism.   Equating capitalism to anything else is a stretch in my opinion.   

the downfall of what I see in society is a lack of personal responsibility, a feeling that someone is owed something or entitled to something.   The lack of respect for others.   The 24 hour news cycle stations that try and drive a wedge between both political parties.   The slow death of how churches play a role in local communities.  

 

i will tell you in one word..........greed.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

I understand the simplistic analysis.  It is what we have been educated to understand.  And again, I am not here to bury capitalism.  I believe in capitalism.  However, capitalism must take some responsibility.  Capitalism is the structural foundation of our society.  I would argue that we have more reverence for capitalism than we do democracy.

We need to understand the relationship of power and capitalism.  We need to understand the relationship between the relative power of labor and, the power of capitalists.  We need to understand that it is desirable to balance these interests. We need to accept that the capitalists are much better at exploiting power than we can currently comprehend.

I think we have to look at how weakening labor unions, weakening the NLRB, the role of globalization have contributed to the imbalance in power and extreme inequality.  Then, we have to think about how this fundamental economic change has brought about corrupt government and, societal change.

Labor unions were historically the balancing mechanism between society and the capitalists.  Their role was vital in maintaining democracy.  Their weakening through so-called right to work laws were vital to shifting political power in favor of the capitalists. 

Once labor was sufficiently weakened, big business quickly moved toward relocation and, exploiting cheap labor.  Wages began to stagnate.  Furthermore, this represents a point at which states and municipalities began to compete for the capitalists.  The interests of society were in effect, subordinated to the interests of the capitalists.  Economic development turned into socialism for the capitalists.  I think it is important to remember that, while this is going on, the federal work force is being reduced through privatization which, also serves to weaken the government's ability to influence labor rates.

The weakening of labor sets the stage for globalization, the further erosion of equality and, the beginning of unrestrained, unprincipled capitalism.  Why did we open up China and, almost immediately grant them favored nation trade status?  It certainly wasn't our love for their communist government or, the Chinese people.  It was the capitalists.  One could argue that it was "triangular diplomacy" but, that holds little truth considering at the time, China had little if any power or influence.  The real answer is the desire of capitalists to exploit a population of potentially over a billion workers/consumers.  Our capitalists, now free from the constraints of social responsibilities, a sense of nationalism, thought they would play the Chinese the same way they played the corrupt governments of South America and, the Middle East.  It was suppose to be the next manifestation of Economic imperialism.

So, here we are, weakened labor, weakened government, globalization, extreme inequality.  A few hundred of us are fabulously wealthy.  A few million of us are better off.  The rest of us, are tired, burdened with debt, anxious, depressed, angry, confused.

Now, let's go back to the "big box store" analogy.  Sure, these store are convenient but, do they offer us anything other than one stop shopping?  And, what are the costs?  Think about all of the local businesses, local businessmen/women that have been displaced.  Think about how these people helped create and maintain our sense of community, supported local causes from youth sports, to schools,  to food banks, to churches.  Think about their position in the middle class.  Do we realize the economic impact of displacing the ownership of a local grocery, electronics store, sporting goods store, toy store, appliance store, sewing shop, lumber yard, plumbing supply, electric supply, pharmacy, distributorships, banks (extremely important to local economies), etc., etc.  Cities and towns have gone from growth centers to having wealth sucked out of them.

Now, let's think about the other social implications of allowing the capitalists free reign.  As wages stagnated in the 70s, the first major change was more and more women choosing to enter the workforce.  Stagnate wages created the environment in which two incomes were required for households to enjoy prosperity.  Ultimately almost all households have come to rely on two incomes just to maintain their standard of living.  What has this done to our children?  What has this done to the family?  How has this fundamentally changed our values?  How has it impacted the divorce rate?

Ultimately, even two incomes were not enough.  Eventually, many Americans had to tap into their ability to borrow in order to maintain their standard of living.  This in large part led us to the destabilization of the housing market and, financial crisis.  And now, is defining our communities by higher rents, lower rates of ownership.  Has anything changed economically other than the balance of power?  How do people behave when they have a lesser stake in their communities?

I would argue that by enshrining the capitalists most willing to part with all values and principles in the name of shareholder return, has done little for most of us.  It has weakened our communities, families and, our most basic values.   We have been trained to chase the carrot without thinking about, why, at what cost.  We have weakened our communities, institutions, ourselves.  All we have done by promoting the inevitable inequality of unbridled, completely unrestrained capitalism is, hurt ourselves, damage democracy (our government is overtly for sale), damage our communities as the money sucked out of them, create more government debt, strengthen the Chinese Communist Party.  We live in direct opposition to our stated principles.

I deeply believe in competitive, regulated capitalism.  I detest unbridled, unprincipled power based crony capitalism.  Competitive capitalism built the American dream.  What we are now is NOT capitalistic.  What we are doing now is putting ownership of everything into the hands of a few, subjugating the rest of us into servitude, a race to the bottom.  We MUST restore the balance of power.

Now, to address the supposition that we merely have a significant portion of the population who are lazy, violent, larcenous, evil.  I believe this is nothing more than a contrived idea that allows those who are benefiting from our current economic condition to stay out of the fray, maintain the status quo.  Our society, any society, is a reflection of the powerful, not the powerless.  I would argue that economic power dynamics are what have often lead us to thoughts that are racist, xenophobic, bigoted and, contribute to us being the type of people who can demonize the poor as our enemy instead of human beings who need our help.

Please, try to consider without thinking in the binary fashion.  Very few ideas are simply good or, bad.  Capitalism in itself is good.  The practice of capitalism that destroys the power of labor and gives all power to the capitalists is dysfunctional.  It is a race to the bottom for the vast majority.

Ambition, competition are good.  These are the hallmarks of capitalism.  Power and greed serve only those willing to part with their humanity.  Power and greed build empires, not thriving communities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SaturdayGT 719]

6 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

i will tell you in one word..........greed.

 Is Greed still money oriented?...t thought power took money's place decades ago...it encompasses  both...money is for half-assers...

 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

5 minutes ago, SaturdayGT said:

 Is Greed still money oriented?...t thought power took money's place decades ago...it encompasses  both...money is for half-assers...

 

So much truth in these few words.  One would always get you the other,,, within limits.  At one time though, they worked together but, they didn't always trust one another.  That is to say, they were distinctively different groups.  Now, economic power has assumed all power.

Sadly, it looks tragic.  This leadership will get everything they can get for the rest of this decade.  At the end, the dollar loses world reserve status and, the lives of average Americans will make the great depression look like good times.

[AU9377 5,035]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:17 PM, icanthearyou said:

................

In my humble opinion, it is not basic morality that should be so concerning, that is merely the symptom, it is our loss of a sense of humanity that will destroy us.  Grotesque inequality should never be a goal, should never be justifiable.  It is an atrocity against humanity, nature, liberty, society.

 

That grotesque inequality is also at odds with the very core of actual Christian values.  Unfortunately, that message is not being received by many of those that need it most.  Instead, they are positioned in a way that encourages conflict over compassion.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

18 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

That grotesque inequality is also at odds with the very core of actual Christian values.  Unfortunately, that message is not being received by many of those that need it most.  Instead, they are positioned in a way that encourages conflict over compassion.

The doctrine of capitalism is more a part of American Christianity than the very commandments of Jesus.

 

[PUB78 1,362]

On 6/7/2022 at 7:12 AM, aubaseball said:

Sorry, but I don’t follow the logic of capitalism being the cause of the decay.   In a more simplistic way of looking at it, how does being able to go buy (say lumber) at either lowes, Home Depot or any lumber company a bad thing?  That is the essence of capitalism.   Equating capitalism to anything else is a stretch in my opinion.   

the downfall of what I see in society is a lack of personal responsibility, a feeling that someone is owed something or entitled to something.   The lack of respect for others.   The 24 hour news cycle stations that try and drive a wedge between both political parties.   The slow death of how churches play a role in local communities.  

 

You nailed it!

[autigeremt 6,686]

4 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

The doctrine of capitalism is more a part of American Christianity than the very commandments of Jesus.

 

He also warned of Revelations….which seem closer every day. If you (general use) believe in such things. 

[GoAU 1,600]

On 6/7/2022 at 7:34 PM, icanthearyou said:

I understand the simplistic analysis.  It is what we have been educated to understand.  And again, I am not here to bury capitalism.  I believe in capitalism.  However, capitalism must take some responsibility.  Capitalism is the structural foundation of our society.  I would argue that we have more reverence for capitalism than we do democracy.

We need to understand the relationship of power and capitalism.  We need to understand the relationship between the relative power of labor and, the power of capitalists.  We need to understand that it is desirable to balance these interests. We need to accept that the capitalists are much better at exploiting power than we can currently comprehend.

I think we have to look at how weakening labor unions, weakening the NLRB, the role of globalization have contributed to the imbalance in power and extreme inequality.  Then, we have to think about how this fundamental economic change has brought about corrupt government and, societal change.

Labor unions were historically the balancing mechanism between society and the capitalists.  Their role was vital in maintaining democracy.  Their weakening through so-called right to work laws were vital to shifting political power in favor of the capitalists. 

Once labor was sufficiently weakened, big business quickly moved toward relocation and, exploiting cheap labor.  Wages began to stagnate.  Furthermore, this represents a point at which states and municipalities began to compete for the capitalists.  The interests of society were in effect, subordinated to the interests of the capitalists.  Economic development turned into socialism for the capitalists.  I think it is important to remember that, while this is going on, the federal work force is being reduced through privatization which, also serves to weaken the government's ability to influence labor rates.

The weakening of labor sets the stage for globalization, the further erosion of equality and, the beginning of unrestrained, unprincipled capitalism.  Why did we open up China and, almost immediately grant them favored nation trade status?  It certainly wasn't our love for their communist government or, the Chinese people.  It was the capitalists.  One could argue that it was "triangular diplomacy" but, that holds little truth considering at the time, China had little if any power or influence.  The real answer is the desire of capitalists to exploit a population of potentially over a billion workers/consumers.  Our capitalists, now free from the constraints of social responsibilities, a sense of nationalism, thought they would play the Chinese the same way they played the corrupt governments of South America and, the Middle East.  It was suppose to be the next manifestation of Economic imperialism.

So, here we are, weakened labor, weakened government, globalization, extreme inequality.  A few hundred of us are fabulously wealthy.  A few million of us are better off.  The rest of us, are tired, burdened with debt, anxious, depressed, angry, confused.

Now, let's go back to the "big box store" analogy.  Sure, these store are convenient but, do they offer us anything other than one stop shopping?  And, what are the costs?  Think about all of the local businesses, local businessmen/women that have been displaced.  Think about how these people helped create and maintain our sense of community, supported local causes from youth sports, to schools,  to food banks, to churches.  Think about their position in the middle class.  Do we realize the economic impact of displacing the ownership of a local grocery, electronics store, sporting goods store, toy store, appliance store, sewing shop, lumber yard, plumbing supply, electric supply, pharmacy, distributorships, banks (extremely important to local economies), etc., etc.  Cities and towns have gone from growth centers to having wealth sucked out of them.

Now, let's think about the other social implications of allowing the capitalists free reign.  As wages stagnated in the 70s, the first major change was more and more women choosing to enter the workforce.  Stagnate wages created the environment in which two incomes were required for households to enjoy prosperity.  Ultimately almost all households have come to rely on two incomes just to maintain their standard of living.  What has this done to our children?  What has this done to the family?  How has this fundamentally changed our values?  How has it impacted the divorce rate?

Ultimately, even two incomes were not enough.  Eventually, many Americans had to tap into their ability to borrow in order to maintain their standard of living.  This in large part led us to the destabilization of the housing market and, financial crisis.  And now, is defining our communities by higher rents, lower rates of ownership.  Has anything changed economically other than the balance of power?  How do people behave when they have a lesser stake in their communities?

I would argue that by enshrining the capitalists most willing to part with all values and principles in the name of shareholder return, has done little for most of us.  It has weakened our communities, families and, our most basic values.   We have been trained to chase the carrot without thinking about, why, at what cost.  We have weakened our communities, institutions, ourselves.  All we have done by promoting the inevitable inequality of unbridled, completely unrestrained capitalism is, hurt ourselves, damage democracy (our government is overtly for sale), damage our communities as the money sucked out of them, create more government debt, strengthen the Chinese Communist Party.  We live in direct opposition to our stated principles.

I deeply believe in competitive, regulated capitalism.  I detest unbridled, unprincipled power based crony capitalism.  Competitive capitalism built the American dream.  What we are now is NOT capitalistic.  What we are doing now is putting ownership of everything into the hands of a few, subjugating the rest of us into servitude, a race to the bottom.  We MUST restore the balance of power.

Now, to address the supposition that we merely have a significant portion of the population who are lazy, violent, larcenous, evil.  I believe this is nothing more than a contrived idea that allows those who are benefiting from our current economic condition to stay out of the fray, maintain the status quo.  Our society, any society, is a reflection of the powerful, not the powerless.  I would argue that economic power dynamics are what have often lead us to thoughts that are racist, xenophobic, bigoted and, contribute to us being the type of people who can demonize the poor as our enemy instead of human beings who need our help.

Please, try to consider without thinking in the binary fashion.  Very few ideas are simply good or, bad.  Capitalism in itself is good.  The practice of capitalism that destroys the power of labor and gives all power to the capitalists is dysfunctional.  It is a race to the bottom for the vast majority.

Ambition, competition are good.  These are the hallmarks of capitalism.  Power and greed serve only those willing to part with their humanity.  Power and greed build empires, not thriving communities.

 

Once again,

I don’t disagree with everything you’ve said, but do disagree strongly with what appears to be your view on unions.  Have you ever worked in a union factory, or more importantly managed in a union factory?   

Before I get too far into the post I want to say I absolutely despise the movement of US manufacturing jobs to LCCs (low cost countries) - it erodes great middle class jobs, damages our GDP, and is truly a detriment to national security.  
 

That being said, unions share quite a bit of the blame in this by artificially inflating wages beyond what the market will support, shielding underperforming individuals, and placing seniority above merit for things like promotions.   I have managed 2 union factories and in both cases the unions did much more harm than good with regards to the long term viability of the plants.  They are a parasite.  And the dues that employees are forced to pay, are used to support all sorts of political causes that many (if not most) of the members know about or would support if given the choice.  Frequently the hardest working employees cannot be promoted because they lose a seniority battle with people who do “just enough not to get fired”.  I support seniority, and value long term employees - but it should just be a tie breaker.  The more senior employee should be able to perform better based on experience.  
 

Unions had their place during the industrial revolution when safety and working conditions were awful, but their time  has come and they have been corrupted and outlived their usefulness.  

[SaltyTiger 7,859]

On 6/7/2022 at 6:34 PM, icanthearyou said:

Now, let's go back to the "big box store" analogy.  Sure, these store are convenient but, do they offer us anything other than one stop shopping?  And, what are the costs?  Think about all of the local businesses, local businessmen/women that have been displaced.  Think about how these people helped create and maintain our sense of community, supported local causes from youth sports, to schools,  to food banks, to churches.  Think about their position in the middle class.  Do we realize the economic impact of displacing the ownership of a local grocery, electronics store, sporting goods store, toy store, appliance store, sewing shop, lumber yard, plumbing supply, electric supply, pharmacy, distributorships, banks (extremely important to local economies), etc., etc.  Cities and towns have gone from growth centers to having wealth sucked out of them.

Some days I just love what you say ICHY. You get it. I continue to believe that most folks are great.