Didba 5,256 Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 Lemon was used for cases to determine where the entanglement of church and state violated the establishment clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,182 Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 Yeah this deserves its own thread. The court's opinion is an exercise in bad faith jurisprudence. Not that schools didn't have to be careful before, but now they have to tiptoe through landmines. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU9377 5,035 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 The Lemon Test was already excessively vague. I'm more middle of the road with regard to this decision. In some ways, it will make public schools and governments less open to litigation. I see that as a positive in some ways. I have seen this used against school districts for little reason other than harassment at times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didba 5,256 Posted June 28, 2022 Author Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, AU9377 said: The Lemon Test was already excessively vague. I'm more middle of the road with regard to this decision. In some ways, it will make public schools and governments less open to litigation. I see that as a positive in some ways. I have seen this used against school districts for little reason other than harassment at times. The issue is it is vague for school officials, but not vague for lawyers. For myself, I know exactly what an infraction of the lemon test looks like. I have read thousands of examples of when it was or was not violated. School officials don't. I love the test, I can see why school officials don't. Still IMO from the lawyer perspective it was good jurisprudence. It gave a black letter test (at least for us) to use. I will add no doubt it is vague, however, the test was just taught so well by law schools for so long (and undergrad mind you, the first time I heard the lemon test was at auburn for my PoliSci degree), compared to other "tests" for the freedom of religion doctrine it is basically black letter law. I mean what the hell does proselytizing religion mean? That's as vague as it gets. Edited June 28, 2022 by Didba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,182 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 9 hours ago, AU9377 said: The Lemon Test was already excessively vague. You think it's vague just wait for the forthcoming "history and traditions" test 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,859 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 21 hours ago, AUDub said: Yeah this deserves its own thread. https://www.abajournal.com/web/article/supreme-court-rules-in-case-of-praying-football-coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,859 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 16 minutes ago, AUDub said: You think it's vague just wait for the forthcoming "history and traditions" test What is “history and traditions” test? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,182 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said: What is “history and traditions” test? I was making a joke, Salty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,859 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Just now, AUDub said: I was making a joke, Salty. Thanks, rather ask you than the two lawyers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,182 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 But for some context https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/LSB10315.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi9sK6Qq9D4AhU8EEQIHSDCBVMQFnoECCEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2l83f3haPNPpWJkj3uB7TS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didba 5,256 Posted June 28, 2022 Author Share Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, AUDub said: I was making a joke, Salty. You joke but that's actually a rationale that has been used before by conservative justices in dissents 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUDub 11,182 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Didba said: You joke but that's actually a rationale that has been used before by conservative justices in dissents Yeah. Hence the PDF. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didba 5,256 Posted June 28, 2022 Author Share Posted June 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, AUDub said: Yeah. Hence the PDF. I hadn't clicked on it yet, my bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU9377 5,035 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 13 hours ago, SaltyTiger said: What is “history and traditions” test? He was being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU9377 5,035 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 11 hours ago, Didba said: You joke but that's actually a rationale that has been used before by conservative justices in dissents I wouldn't say a rationale, but certainly an element to their argument, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU9377 5,035 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 19 hours ago, Didba said: The issue is it is vague for school officials, but not vague for lawyers. For myself, I know exactly what an infraction of the lemon test looks like. I have read thousands of examples of when it was or was not violated. School officials don't. I love the test, I can see why school officials don't. Still IMO from the lawyer perspective it was good jurisprudence. It gave a black letter test (at least for us) to use. I will add no doubt it is vague, however, the test was just taught so well by law schools for so long (and undergrad mind you, the first time I heard the lemon test was at auburn for my PoliSci degree), compared to other "tests" for the freedom of religion doctrine it is basically black letter law. I mean what the hell does proselytizing religion mean? That's as vague as it gets. It was well established, but of all the issues this new majority was likely to tackle, this one actually surprises me the least. Applying that test in the 5th(Louisiana/Texas/MS) and 11th (Ga/AL/FL) circuits often produces different results than the same application with the same set of facts from the 9th (CA etc) or 2nd(NY). I'll admit, I don't completely disagree with Gorsuch's analysis on this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,859 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, AU9377 said: He was being sarcastic. Dubs informed. Would have asked you or Didba but lawyers are hard to understand and make me nervous. Have a son that is a lawyer. Speak to him rarely and never ask him a question. 😏 Edited June 29, 2022 by SaltyTiger 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didba 5,256 Posted June 29, 2022 Author Share Posted June 29, 2022 16 hours ago, AU9377 said: It was well established, but of all the issues this new majority was likely to tackle, this one actually surprises me the least. Applying that test in the 5th(Louisiana/Texas/MS) and 11th (Ga/AL/FL) circuits often produces different results than the same application with the same set of facts from the 9th (CA etc) or 2nd(NY). I'll admit, I don't completely disagree with Gorsuch's analysis on this. You know what's wild is this bar exam I'm about to take is the last one that will test on abortions and the establishment clause. The lemon test was great for MBE questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU9377 5,035 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 6 hours ago, Didba said: You know what's wild is this bar exam I'm about to take is the last one that will test on abortions and the establishment clause. The lemon test was great for MBE questions It does lend itself to that format. I don't remember it being on the exam in 1996 when I took it, but then again, I probably don't remember a lot of things from that year. I was one of the last classes allowed to take the exam prior to graduation if I chose to do so. I didn't think about the fact that Mardi Gras was the week before the February exam that year (I was in school at Tulane). It worked out fine in the end, but the drive to Atlanta was long after having gone out with friends a few too many nights. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didba 5,256 Posted June 30, 2022 Author Share Posted June 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, AU9377 said: It does lend itself to that format. I don't remember it being on the exam in 1996 when I took it, but then again, I probably don't remember a lot of things from that year. I was one of the last classes allowed to take the exam prior to graduation if I chose to do so. I didn't think about the fact that Mardi Gras was the week before the February exam that year (I was in school at Tulane). It worked out fine in the end, but the drive to Atlanta was long after having gone out with friends a few too many nights. My god that sounds terrible, my testing center is only twenty minutes away luckily. Also mind blowing that you took it in the middle of your last semester!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU9377 5,035 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 10 hours ago, SaltyTiger said: Dubs informed. Would have asked you or Didba but lawyers are hard to understand and make me nervous. Have a son that is a lawyer. Speak to him rarely and never ask him a question. 😏 Too many in the profession are condescending ass hats. Even if we disagree about something, never be apprehensive about asking a question. I never intend to belittle someone's opinion or view. I'm certainly not always right and if I actually did know everything, the last thing I would be doing is practicing law. At the end of the day, we are all just people with differing backgrounds and life experiences. Sharing those life experiences with each other is the only way we grow. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU9377 5,035 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 9 minutes ago, Didba said: My god that sounds terrible, my testing center is only twenty minutes away luckily. Also mind blowing that you took it in the middle of your last semester!! I left out the fact that I also had a murder trial in January through our clinical program. How I did all that actually amazes me today, given that a month now flies by at the speed of light. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,859 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 8 hours ago, AU9377 said: never be apprehensive about asking a question Just afraid you would PM me a bill for answering………😏 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasTiger 13,006 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 19 hours ago, SaltyTiger said: Dubs informed. Would have asked you or Didba but lawyers are hard to understand and make me nervous. Have a son that is a lawyer. Speak to him rarely and never ask him a question. 😏 Do y’all agree on most political issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaltyTiger 7,859 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 8 minutes ago, TexasTiger said: Do y’all agree on most political issues? We do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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