Goals and firings

[auburnatl1 5,201]

Talent beats coaching. In every sport. At every level. There’s always upsets but over time, always. If you don’t believe it,  there’s no point in reading on. Our 3 biggest rivals - bama, uga, and lsu, normally have too 1-6 recruiting classes (bama and uga currently 1 and 2). Yes, rankings aren’t perfect and there’s now the portal. But over time, talent dominates. The other option is a world of relying on weird schemes and coach em up. Upsets. 2013 stuff.

We’ve fired one coach after another for decades for failing to match up to our rivals. But most of time, losing games was just the inevitable result. The cause was 2 years earlier when they couldn’t recruit with them.

Of course good coaching is a requisite but today if I ask if someone if they feel that a coaching candidate has the potential to do top 5 recruiting (think about that number), I get tons of  “no but we’ve never done that before”.. Translation:  Jaba and they’ll be fired. They may Gus/scheme it out for a while, but its only time.

iThe question is this; either 1)  our candidates MUST (non negotiable) have the elite potential to match uga/bama in minimally top 5 (not top 7-14, that’s been the problem) recruiting or 2) we just say it, we need to lower the goals (ie upset them 1/3-1/4 the time). Dominance or coach em up upsets? Otherwise, the firing cycle continues without end.

Edited November 12, 2022 by auburnatl1

[DAG 34,033]

Every single coach we named as a potential can get top talent as long as the alignment is in order. 

[Mikey 16,776]

2 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Talent beats coaching. In every sport. At every level. There’s always upsets,, but over time, always. If you don’t believe it,  there’s no point in reading on. Our 3 biggest rivals - bama, uga, and lsu, normally have too 1-6 recruiting classes . Yes, rankings aren’t perfect and there’s now the portal. But over time, talent dominates. The other option is a world of relying on weird schemes and coach em up. Upsets. 2013 stuff.

We’ve fired one coach after another for decades for failing to match up to our rivals. But most of time, losing games was just the inevitable result. The cause was 2 years earlier when they couldn’t recruit with them.

Today if I ask if someone if they feel that a coaching candidate has the potential to do top 5 recruiting, I get tons of  “no but we’ve never done that before”.. Translation:  Jaba and they’ll be fired. They may Gus/scheme it out for a while, but I’d only time.

iThe question is this; either 1)  our candidates MUST (non negotiable) have the elite potential to match uga/bama in recruiting or 2) we just say it, we need to lower the goals (ie upset them 1/3-1/4 the time). Dominance or coach em up upsets? Otherwise, the firing cycle continues without end.

I see no reason why Grimes, Freeze or even Kiffin couldn't be competitive with UGA and UAT in recruiting. They know what they are doing in such an arena. Sanders would have to have training wheels to travel with the big dogs. Snatching one top recruit away from FSU with the sales pitch of helping HCBUs does in no way relate to competing with Big Dogs for the same 40 or so recruits every year.

[Hank2020 3,222]

12 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Talent beats coaching. In every sport. At every level. There’s always upsets,, but over time, always. If you don’t believe it,  there’s no point in reading on. Our 3 biggest rivals - bama, uga, and lsu, normally have too 1-6 recruiting classes . Yes, rankings aren’t perfect and there’s now the portal. But over time, talent dominates. The other option is a world of relying on weird schemes and coach em up. Upsets. 2013 stuff.

We’ve fired one coach after another for decades for failing to match up to our rivals. But most of time, losing games was just the inevitable result. The cause was 2 years earlier when they couldn’t recruit with them.

Today if I ask if someone if they feel that a coaching candidate has the potential to do top 5 recruiting, I get tons of  “no but we’ve never done that before”.. Translation:  Jaba and they’ll be fired. They may Gus/scheme it out for a while, but Iits only time.

iThe question is this; either 1)  our candidates MUST (non negotiable) have the elite potential to match uga/bama in recruiting or 2) we just say it, we need to lower the goals (ie upset them 1/3-1/4 the time). Dominance or coach em up upsets? Otherwise, the firing cycle continues without end.

Talent with poor coaching usually fails. Good coaching wo talent usually fails. Consistent wins comes from great talent and at least good coaching.

[Hank2020 3,222]

9 minutes ago, Mikey said:

I see no reason why Grimes, Freeze or even Kiffin couldn't be competitive with UGA and UAT in recruiting. They know what they are doing in such an arena. Sanders would have to have training wheels to travel with the big dogs. Snatching one top recruit away from FSU with the sales pitch of helping HCBUs does in no way relate to competing with Big Dogs for the same 40 or so recruits every year.

That’s definitely a risk.

[auburnatl1 5,201]

14 hours ago, Mikey said:

I see no reason why Grimes, Freeze or even Kiffin couldn't be competitive with UGA and UAT in recruiting. They know what they are doing in such an arena. Sanders would have to have training wheels to travel with the big dogs. Snatching one top recruit away from FSU with the sales pitch of helping HCBUs does in no way relate to competing with Big Dogs for the same 40 or so recruits every year.

Which is the heart of the disagreement. In our current state, I feel that only prime (training wheels and all) and maybe  maybe maybe Kiffin could. Thanks 

Edited November 13, 2022 by auburnatl1

[Auburn93 571]

53 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Talent beats coaching. In every sport. At every level. There’s always upsets but over time, always. If you don’t believe it,  there’s no point in reading on. Our 3 biggest rivals - bama, uga, and lsu, normally have too 1-6 recruiting classes . Yes, rankings aren’t perfect and there’s now the portal. But over time, talent dominates. The other option is a world of relying on weird schemes and coach em up. Upsets. 2013 stuff.

We’ve fired one coach after another for decades for failing to match up to our rivals. But most of time, losing games was just the inevitable result. The cause was 2 years earlier when they couldn’t recruit with them.

Of course good coaching is a requisite but today if I ask if someone if they feel that a coaching candidate has the potential to do top 5 recruiting, I get tons of  “no but we’ve never done that before”.. Translation:  Jaba and they’ll be fired. They may Gus/scheme it out for a while, but its only time.

iThe question is this; either 1)  our candidates MUST (non negotiable) have the elite potential to match uga/bama in top 5 (not top 7-14, that’s been the problem) recruiting or 2) we just say it, we need to lower the goals (ie upset them 1/3-1/4 the time). Dominance or coach em up upsets? Otherwise, the firing cycle continues without end.

Without a doubt, you need talent.  But did you see Auburn 2003, 1984, 1985, 20012.  Talented squads but things were OFF.  See turn arounds the following years.  We had to have coaching.  2003 NO OC WITH ANY EXPERIENCE.  2004 BORGES.  84-85-trying to find a passing attack and QB.  See 1986 with Coach Sullivan and Jeff Burger.  (There was a transition in offenses which is a part of coaching.  You have to have a head coach who can recognize what type of scheme you need and what type of player you need,)  2012=-just awful coaching, terrible coordinator and no QB.)

It takes talent and coaching.  It always has.  So I disagree with the idea that we can hire a dummy and just have great players and win.  

[PoetTiger 1,901]

Deion would not have issues recruiting elite talent to Auburn. Read up on him. He has charisma, builds relationships, and surrounds himself with talented coaches who can support his vision and culture. For an FCS school JSU players have access to some very experienced and well respected coaches. IMO this shows he is committed to top of line player development. Players want to get to the next level, he knows what it takes to get there. And don’t think Deion has not learned a thing or two from Saban about establishing a culture of winning. He ain’t just shooting commercials and not asking questions. Deion can walk into a kids living room and sell himself as a coach and Auburn as a school. He has been around football all his life. IMO If hired here recruiting would not be his most difficult challenge.

[icanthearyou 4,464]

Georgia and Alabama have EXCEPTIONAL talent.  Before you can ever hope to compete with them on the field, you have to compete with them in recruiting.

You need something extra in order to compete for the elite talent.  Only one name mentioned brings that immediate ability.

[aubaseball 2,663]

All this top talent talk is just that, talk.   The difference between #5 ranked class and #15 ranked is minuscule and if you get the right QB with the #15 ranked class and the right coach, you can win a lot of games.   Class rankings are for the public and to make money for all the people that are in that field.   Give me a coach that can consistently recruit in the top 15, develop talent and scheme around his players all day.   

[icanthearyou 4,464]

1 minute ago, aubaseball said:

All this top talent talk is just that, talk.   The difference between #5 ranked class and #15 ranked is minuscule and if you get the right QB with the #15 ranked class and the right coach, you can win a lot of games.   Class rankings are for the public and to make money for all the people that are in that field.   Give me a coach that can consistently recruit in the top 15, develop talent and scheme around his players all day.   

No, not if you understand the difference between real talent/depth across the board versus the illusion of the rankings, not if you understand that the truly elite talent begins with the linemen.

Player rankings are usually pretty good.  Class rankings,,, not so much.  Class rankings do not reflect how effective you are at filling needs.

[AU North 164]

Overall talent is necessary. Classes with a lot of top ranked talent isolated to 1 or 2 positions will not win you many games. JMO WDE 

[auburnatl1 5,201]

6 minutes ago, aubaseball said:

All this top talent talk is just that, talk.   The difference between #5 ranked class and #15 ranked is minuscule and if you get the right QB with the #15 ranked class and the right coach, you can win a lot of games.   Class rankings are for the public and to make money for all the people that are in that field.   Give me a coach that can consistently recruit in the top 15, develop talent and scheme around his players all day.   

Respectfully, it’s that thinking that I believe is our problem. Go align the top 5 teams with the top 5 recruiting classes in the past 20 yrs.  Scary close. Always exceptions and teams under achieve each year, but it’s about odds. Just being provocative for a min  - if our goal isn’t to have the #1 recruiting class, then our goal isn’t to win national championships. Yes, the recruiting services are sometimes wrong, on any given Saturday, and coach em up.  But generally, over time, Vegas would probably support the thinking.

[icanthearyou 4,464]

3 minutes ago, AU North said:

Overall talent is necessary. Classes with a lot of top ranked talent isolated to 1 or 2 positions will not win you many games. JMO WDE 

Exactly, in order to compete for championships, you cannot be weak at any position group.  Even being young/inexperienced/thin at a position group will cost you games.

Stockpiling talent at every position is how you get to the level of always being in the playoff discussion.

[DAG 34,033]

Kind of got to coach up the talent too. Or did we forger that?

[auburnatl1 5,201]

2 hours ago, DAG said:

Kind of got to coach up the talent too. Or did we forger that?

It’s assumed. To get and keep elite talent, you have to have an elite get-them-ready-for-the-nfl coaching staff. Obviously morons coaching 5*’s won’t work (ie tamu). Ps when ever someone says a candidate can get “top talent”, that’s vague code for yet another 8-14 ranked class again

Edited November 12, 2022 by auburnatl1

[banditmwp 713]

7 minutes ago, DAG said:

Kind of got to coach up the talent too. Or did we forger that?

Jimbo Fisher apparently forgot 🤔

[DAG 34,033]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

It’s assumed. To get elite talent, you have to have elite get-them-ready-for-the-nfl coaching. Obviously morons coaching 5*’s won’t work (ie tamu).

It should never be assumed. Too many teams having lots of talent not playing up to par. 

[DAG 34,033]

Just now, banditmwp said:

Jimbo Fisher apparently forgot 🤔

OU as well

 

Add Texas  , And Penn State and ND

[auburnatl1 5,201]

2 minutes ago, DAG said:

OU as well

 

Add Texas  , And Penn State and ND

Always exceptions, always under achieving, always upsets. I totally get it. But, again, bama and uga currently have the recruiting class.  Anyone not like their chances in 2024?

[DAG 34,033]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

Always exceptions, always under achieving, always upsets. I totally get it. But, again, bama and uga currently have the recruiting class.  Anyone not like their chances in 2024?

They have the recruiting classes and the best coaches. See people think it is easy to consistently be at the top, even with the best players. It is not easy to get everyone's best shot game in and game out. Of course the teams with the best talent consistently are in the playoffs, but you are fooling yourself in assuming that having that is an automatic, especially in the SEC.

[DAG 34,033]

And no, I don't think you need some wizard to recruit here. Gene Chizik was pulling highly recruited classes. Gus's wasn't too shabby either although he allocated it mostly to one area.

[aubaseball 2,663]

20 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

It’s assumed. To get and keep elite talent, you have to have an elite get-them-ready-for-the-nfl coaching staff. Obviously morons coaching 5*’s won’t work (ie tamu).

But that’s not what you originally said.  Of course you would want to get the next Saban.   But who is the next Saban?  No one knows if Deion is even the next Gus.   He hasn’t recruited against anyone or played against anyone.   I’m not saying he might not work out, but you act like he is the only one.   

[woodford 3,669]

2 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Talent beats coaching. In every sport. At every level. There’s always upsets but over time, always. If you don’t believe it,  there’s no point in reading on. Our 3 biggest rivals - bama, uga, and lsu, normally have too 1-6 recruiting classes (bama and uga currently 1 and 2). Yes, rankings aren’t perfect and there’s now the portal. But over time, talent dominates. The other option is a world of relying on weird schemes and coach em up. Upsets. 2013 stuff.

We’ve fired one coach after another for decades for failing to match up to our rivals. But most of time, losing games was just the inevitable result. The cause was 2 years earlier when they couldn’t recruit with them.

Of course good coaching is a requisite but today if I ask if someone if they feel that a coaching candidate has the potential to do top 5 recruiting (think about that number), I get tons of  “no but we’ve never done that before”.. Translation:  Jaba and they’ll be fired. They may Gus/scheme it out for a while, but its only time.

iThe question is this; either 1)  our candidates MUST (non negotiable) have the elite potential to match uga/bama in minimally top 5 (not top 7-14, that’s been the problem) recruiting or 2) we just say it, we need to lower the goals (ie upset them 1/3-1/4 the time). Dominance or coach em up upsets? Otherwise, the firing cycle continues without end.

“If you don’t believe me then don’t read on” aka don’t argue with me lmao

You need talent and coaching. It’s not one or the other and it’s not some zero sum game. 
 

If TAMU is so loaded then why are they 3-6? Why is Tulane 8-1? TCU 9-0? 

[auburnatl1 5,201]

27 minutes ago, DAG said:

They have the recruiting classes and the best coaches. See people think it is easy to consistently be at the top, even with the best players. It is not easy to get everyone's best shot game in and game out. Of course the teams with the best talent consistently are in the playoffs, but you are fooling yourself in assuming that having that is an automatic, especially in the SEC.

Yes. You have to have both. An elite coach will attract an elite staff.  Have both with massive brand/ recruiting/selling skills - and you get 5.*s. My only point is that we continue to go nuts when we historically have had 8-14 ranked classes and then lose to teams that have had 1-3 ranked classes. We shouldn’t. Yes, Cam’s do happen, 2013’s even happen, but generally - 8-9 wins happen … a lot more. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by auburnatl1