The United Methodist Church is Undergoing a Schism

[icanthearyou 4,463]

19 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I think you just summarized the problem. 

That sounds like a good argument for evolution - or "revolution" if you insist.

It is an argument against Jesus.  It is an argument for religion over God.

[homersapien 11,385]

2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The protestant faiths have always fought amongst themselves.  When it wasn't about gay marriage, it was about race and before race, other issues made things contentious.  There are so many chiefs and too few indians.

Ecclesiologically speaking, at one point in the history of Christianity, there was essentially one church, at least in theory, correct?  (I know there have been various denominations that have claimed to be the "one true church".)

Regardless, one could argue that large denominations splitting into smaller denominations is the natural result of religious evolution.   Schism is built into that process.

 

[TitanTiger 20,498]

13 minutes ago, homersapien said:

"Exigent circumstance" as in they way homosexuals were created, the way they are?

Did evolution replace the literal interpretation of Genesis or not?  If the bible is absolutely fixed and "represents" the word of God, then Christianity is doomed to fail. 

Just as happened for every religion created in the history of Homo sapiens, something will replace it.  Presumably - and hopefully - something reflecting and complementing reality as we have come to understand it.

You're welcome to believe that.

[homersapien 11,385]

19 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

You're welcome to believe that.

Uh, thanks? 

Edited February 7, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,385]

Frankly, I think Christianity would be well served by abandoning the "Old Testament" all together.

Edited February 6, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,385]

12 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

You're welcome to believe that.

Well, why aren't some of your "true churches" enforcing a literal interpretation of Genesis and rejecting evolution as blasphemy?

Does your church take that position?

Edited February 6, 2023 by homersapien

[AU9377 4,960]

2 hours ago, PUB78 said:

Wow! How many of the divorces were for Biblical reasons? Do the couples that swapped spouses still attend your church? If so, it must be awkward.

There is nothing remotely awkward about it.  That is part of my point.  If we looked back 50 years ago, it would have been a very strange occurrence and it would have been awkward indeed.  We have had a pastor that is divorced.  The biblical reason was that his former wife didn't want to be the wife of a pastor.  He was a decent pastor.

 

[AU9377 4,960]

With a more educated and informed society, I believe that it is natural to question doctrine that flies in the face of reality.  We know as an absolute fact that there have been gay men and women since the beginning of recorded history.  Some cultures have made it out to be a depravity, while others simply did not addressed it on any deep level, while considering it part the nature of human beings.  Many never considered interactions between people of the same sex to be sexual intercourse. 

What has always been true is that human beings will look for reasons to elevate themselves and to display their individual superiority.  Shame and guilt are two ways to accomplish that. Looking back in time, if someone had a child born with a defect, they were ashamed.  They had obviously brought this upon themselves in some way.  Often that would lead to the child being killed as an infant.  Too often, the Christian church did not object.  We know better today, and as a result of that, we have changed our views.  Unfortunately, until someone has a close personal experience with same sex couples or someone dealing with being gay, they struggle with understanding the issue.  I have seen families deal with having a gay child the best they could and love that child and I have seen families cut their children out of their lives, only to regret the decision years later.  What I haven't seen is a family disown a child and 10 or 20 years later believe that they made the right decision.  In that same vein, I don't believe that dismissing members of your faith for being who they are is something that any congregation will see as having been the right choice when they revisit the issue down the road.

[PUB78 1,358]

5 hours ago, AU9377 said:

There is nothing remotely awkward about it.  That is part of my point.  If we looked back 50 years ago, it would have been a very strange occurrence and it would have been awkward indeed.  We have had a pastor that is divorced.  The biblical reason was that his former wife didn't want to be the wife of a pastor.  He was a decent pastor.

 

Are you sure that your church is Southern Baptist? Sounds more like the “progressive “ Baptist such as Jimmy Carter.

[PUB78 1,358]

5 hours ago, AU9377 said:

With a more educated and informed society, I believe that it is natural to question doctrine that flies in the face of reality.  We know as an absolute fact that there have been gay men and women since the beginning of recorded history.  Some cultures have made it out to be a depravity, while others simply did not addressed it on any deep level, while considering it part the nature of human beings.  Many never considered interactions between people of the same sex to be sexual intercourse. 

What has always been true is that human beings will look for reasons to elevate themselves and to display their individual superiority.  Shame and guilt are two ways to accomplish that. Looking back in time, if someone had a child born with a defect, they were ashamed.  They had obviously brought this upon themselves in some way.  Often that would lead to the child being killed as an infant.  Too often, the Christian church did not object.  We know better today, and as a result of that, we have changed our views.  Unfortunately, until someone has a close personal experience with same sex couples or someone dealing with being gay, they struggle with understanding the issue.  I have seen families deal with having a gay child the best they could and love that child and I have seen families cut their children out of their lives, only to regret the decision years later.  What I haven't seen is a family disown a child and 10 or 20 years later believe that they made the right decision.  In that same vein, I don't believe that dismissing members of your faith for being who they are is something that any congregation will see as having been the right choice when they revisit the issue down the road.

Early Christians search the woods and forest for infants left to die by their pagan parents.  The ones rescued were adopted as blood relatives.

[AU9377 4,960]

3 hours ago, PUB78 said:

Are you sure that your church is Southern Baptist? Sounds more like the “progressive “ Baptist such as Jimmy Carter.

Very Southern Baptist.  Most every Baptist, Methodist and similar denominations are full of people that have been divorced and remarried.  Nobody gives it a second thought.The divorced pastor we had was unusual, and he addressed it with the church prior to coming, but other than that, it is common.  I am not saying that it should be an issue, but it is an example of how the church's views on the subject have evolved over time.

We aren't but a few generations removed from many in the church using the Bible to support segregation and similar issues.

[AU9377 4,960]

3 hours ago, PUB78 said:

Early Christians search the woods and forest for infants left to die by their pagan parents.  The ones rescued were adopted as blood relatives.

Very true.

[DKW 86 7,426]

On 2/5/2023 at 10:08 PM, AU9377 said:

Why does God create the infertile if everyone is commanded to be fruitful and multiply?

You can be fruitful and multiply in many many ways. It is not just procreation.

[DKW 86 7,426]

Even in the early church, there were schisms. We are still dealing with that today. I think we are closer, IN A FEW CHURCHES, than we have ever been to the true church. Paul warned us repeatedly about fake holy people. I personally think that is the #1 issue with churches, especially in America today. The Osteens, Furticks, Copelands, Dollars, Tiltons, the Charlatans, are everywhere and should be called out. I mean daily. Copeland is worth somewhere North of $700M. THAT is clearly not in the bible nor in the teachings of Christ. 

Misinterpreting the scriptures for your own crazy opinions, a la Greg Locke and Westboro, is even worse. You are leading the flock astray and the bible firmly says that it will be worse for those that lead the flock astray than for a man to have a millstone tied around his neck and flung into the sea.

So denominationalism is bad, but not a deal breaker. Using the scriptures for gain, and to mislead the flock, that is clearly worthy of real punishment. 

I am more Ichy than Titan, I know I am profoundly screwed up and a sinner almost every day. It has taught me to go the extra mile with others and to give grace freely as others give it to me. I am not judging anyone's personal walk. I was in a church where being divorced meant you were openly shunned by the staff. You were a second class citizen for the rest of your life, always condemned to be chastised and ignored. Does that sound like a Doctrine of Forgiveness? It doesnt to me either. So, I left. God bless them but I thrived in another church. 

[homersapien 11,385]

4 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Even in the early church, there were schisms. We are still dealing with that today.....

 

 

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

19 hours ago, homersapien said:

Frankly, I think Christianity would be well served by abandoning the "Old Testament" all together.

Not a Bible scholar by any stretch but abandoning the Old Testament would not work. What would good is the New Testament without understanding the Old?

[AUDub 11,153]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

 

What a great film that was. 

Not a day goes by I don't quote the Legionary's Latin lesson. 

[homersapien 11,385]

3 hours ago, AUDub said:

What a great film that was. 

Not a day goes by I don't quote the Legionary's Latin lesson. 

That was mostly over my head.  (I could handle "biggus dickus" though.  )

Edited February 7, 2023 by homersapien

[AUDub 11,153]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

That was mostly over my head.  (I could handle "biggus dickus" though.  )

"HOLD ON, PONTIUTH! PERHAPTH I CAN BE THOME ATITHTANCE IF THERETH A THUDDEN CRITHITH!"