This qualifies as bad news

[Tigermike 3,055]

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

By MATTHEW HICKLEY - More by this author » Last updated at 00:13am on 10th November 2007

Comments (6)

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

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Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine, like the one that sufaced by the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

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Battle stations: The Kitty Hawk carries 4,500 personnel

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.

Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.

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US Pacific Command’s Adm William Fallon says the group wasn’t conducting anti-sub operations, but the fact remains that the submarine did slip past the group’s security screen undetected and popped up within firing range of the Kitty Hawk.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/14/...in2179694.shtml

[DKW 86 7,441]

We run passive sonar for detection and not being detected. Diesel boats are perfect for slipping into the net with surface ships. You have to be very quiet to passively detect a diesel boat. You also have to be running very slow for your sonar to work. A sub should hear them, but with many noisy skimmers above AND having to run balls out to keep up with a carrier group it is hard to hear one.

We had our best success against them, very easy, reliable success taking them on in single patrol.

BTW, most diesel boats are so slow, they have to basically sit in the water and get run over by a carrier group.

[autigeremt 6,716]

I have felt for some time that the U.S. needs to re-think it's force strengths, increase it's ability to fight the "non-conventional" war, and quit relying so heavily on technology. There will come a time when someone (Maybe China) will countermeasure us and render the United States helpless by taking out critical technological infrastructure.

THEN WHAT??????

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Then we fight. It's that simple. We fight a billion screaming Chinamen. My grandfather, God bless his soul, warned me about Red China in '74.

Does anyone else think that China has purchased Russian Cold War technology, and with their innovative ability actually may have perfected some of the concepts that may have been previously tossed?

[AFTiger 282]

From Bill Gertz

The Chinese Buildup Rolls On

By Bill Gertz

China has embarked on a major military buildup that the Pentagon views as a potential threat to regional stability in the Far East and to US influence in the Pacific and the world. This threat could become reality in 10 to 15 years, DoD officials maintain.

The People's Liberation Army, as the Communist Chinese military is called, is developing six distinct types of fighters-more than any nation-and a new mobile strategic missile that Air Force Intelligence calls a "significant threat" to US forces in the Pacific and portions of the continental United States.

China's recent weapons purchases from Russia comprise advanced warplanes, two guided-missile destroyers, and top-of-the-line artillery. The Office of Naval Intelligence reported that Beijing's leaders are committed to deploying a 40,000-ton-class aircraft carrier by 2010.

US defense officials are reluctant to openly characterize China as a threat, or even potential threat, but China's march to acquire sophisticated weapons, combined with a raft of troubling statements issued by Chinese military officials, has raised new concerns about the world's most populous nation.

The head of US Pacific Command, Adm. Joseph W. Prueher, maintained that US forces are far superior to anything fielded by the Chinese PLA. However, he said he is under no illusions about the potential dangers that a rearmed China could pose in another decade or so. "Our overall strategy is to deal with China from a position of strength," said Prueher, "but we also are focusing on ... China's interests ... and respecting those interests."

China's strategic intentions "are part of every discussion we have with every nation in the theater," he added.

Prueher maintained that Beijing is not now a threat but could well become one through vigorous weapons development and military modernization programs. He said, "In my estimation, China is about a decade and a half away with its training and equipment before they can put it all together."

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More of the article

[rexbo 104]

Because the environmentalists won't let them turn on the high-powered active sonars to detect them, they claim it hurts the whale's ears. But in a war, they would have been detected...

[AURaptor 1,126]

Oddly, one of the sonar ops said he thought he could hear something very faintly, just before the sub broke the surface.

" Me Chinese, me play joke...... "