Bama fans should demand preventative discipline from Saban

[WarTiger 3,915]

Quite honestly Mike Price's situation was not nearly as embarrassing for the school as this freak show and he was lucky to escape the noose. Saban should be fired but not for this one incident rather the nine others culminating with this latest one. This is a pattern; it will not stop as long as Saban is coaching in T-town. This is part of Saban's style. It happened at MSU and at LSU. It is happening because this is how Saban does business. So I ask you, Bama fans, which is more important winning or being a laughing stock?

Shula cannot be blamed for this. It does not matter who recruited these kids, the current coach is responsible for disciplining them and he is not even trying to do that. From all accounts Johns was a model citizen before playing for Saban. I don't recall any of the others that have been arrested showing up on police blotters before they began playing for Saban either. Teams reflect the personality of their head coach. This team is a perfect example of that idiom.

hey rebdawg, got a link to this info about trouble while saban was at MSU and LSU? I'd really like to have the list of arrests and player issues while he was coach at these places. Would be an interesting read...

[WAR-MATT 2]

Quite honestly Mike Price's situation was not nearly as embarrassing for the school as this freak show and he was lucky to escape the noose. Saban should be fired but not for this one incident rather the nine others culminating with this latest one. This is a pattern; it will not stop as long as Saban is coaching in T-town. This is part of Saban's style. It happened at MSU and at LSU. It is happening because this is how Saban does business. So I ask you, Bama fans, which is more important winning or being a laughing stock?

Shula cannot be blamed for this. It does not matter who recruited these kids, the current coach is responsible for disciplining them and he is not even trying to do that. From all accounts Johns was a model citizen before playing for Saban. I don't recall any of the others that have been arrested showing up on police blotters before they began playing for Saban either. Teams reflect the personality of their head coach. This team is a perfect example of that idiom.

hey rebdawg, got a link to this info about trouble while saban was at MSU and LSU? I'd really like to have the list of arrests and player issues while he was coach at these places. Would be an interesting read...

shhh....don't give them details. they think we're scared of him.

[AUdaREALsecTigers 2]

AUBURNJAC - have you seen Melick's article today? In a interview with tot he pretty much says there is nothing Sabahr could have done. So basically Sabahr = Tot when it comes to discipline.

Link

Bowden says Saban might have had no choice but to back Johns

Thursday, June 26, 2008

Nick Saban has Jimmy Johns.

Terry Bowden had Robert Baker.

Bowden, who still is hurt by the 1998 arrest of Baker on one count of trafficking cocaine and two counts of distribution, says Saban may not have had much choice but to support Johns prior to the revelation of Johns' arrest on charges of selling cocaine.

Bowden says so from experience.

"I was very close to Robert," said Bowden, the former Auburn coach who helped Baker get an early release from prison and into the NFL. "But that caught me way off guard, because he looked me in the eye and said, `I swear I'd never do that.'

"... You have to stick with him because he's one of your players. If you don't have anything that tells you the stories you're hearing are true, you're worse off as a coach not to back your player, because if you don't, you risk losing your whole team."

There are some fans, of course, who would say that because of Bowden's recruitment of certain players such as Baker, Tommy Tuberville inherited a mess when he was hired to replace Bowden after the 1998 season.

"Of course, you say that," Bowden said. "You always come in and blame the previous coach. Any time you come into a new situation, you stress discipline. Then when you go, the next guy blames you.

"But as my dad (Bobby) always says, if strict discipline won ballgames, Army and Navy would be playing for the national championship every year."

Then again, jobs like Alabama rarely come open unless it's a tough situation. And former coach Mike Shula may have felt he had to take some chances on some players because he was recruiting under severe NCAA sanctions.

The question becomes, why didn't Saban clean house?

"Sometimes you come into a program like an Alabama, and you don't need to go backwards," said Bowden, who took over an Auburn program that was under severe NCAA penalties. "You've got to be careful when the team you're taking over has won six or seven games and that's considered unacceptable. ... Sometimes you try to make everyone feel they are part of the program, to hold things together.

"But it might also keep you from turning the program around as quickly as you'd like. I think Nick is transparent; he wants to win. If a guy is a menace to the team, he'll get rid of him. But if he thinks a kid can be saved or is an asset to the team, he'll keep him around."

Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.

But really, no coach can be sure because not only does he take on 25 players every year, he takes on 25 new histories that a coach knows very little about.

"Players haven't changed," Bowden said. "Parents have. You know, I had guys who only flunked drug tests in the summer, because they'd go home and their parents smoked (dope). You don't think that doesn't drive a coach crazy?"

In the end, whether Saban handled discipline issues correctly will be judged the way every coach is judged: by wins and losses.

"If you win, you'll be perceived as having done things the right way," Bowden said. "If you lose, then it was wrong. It's as simple as that."

Ray Melick's column appears Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Write him at rmelick@bhamnews.com.

© 2008 The Birmingham News

© 2008 al.com All Rights Reserved.

Leave it to Ray to cover up for Nick again. I think he has more of a man-crush on him than finebaum.

[AU Cav 0]

Honestly, I never want Alabama to fire a head coach. Because generally they make terrible hires. All my friends and I celebrated when they gave Shula that big contract. We got odd looks from the bammers. They thought it was such a glorious thing and we agreed. We love winning that game and being the most relevant team in the state.

And as an Auburn fan, I don't want Saban fired. I'm not convinced he's a great coach. He's a superb salesman, but coaching, meh. So I did a little research. Saban since he started coaching at major colleges:

Michigan St.

1995 6-5-1

1996 6-6

1997 7-5

1998 6-6

1999 9-2.

Four years of mediocre football followed by one breakout year. Granted there were a lot of obstacles at MSU, but Saban was almost fired and even when he had a breakthrough he still got blown out by Purdue and Wisconsin. He jumped ship before the bowl game.

LSU

2000 8-4

2001 10-3 (SEC Champion)

2002 8-5

2003 13-1 (NC)

2004 9-3

Much better. Two SEC Championships and one Natty. Of course, in the Natty they didn't play the team ranked number one in both polls. Out of his control but still open for skepticism. In '00, got woodshedded by Florida, lost to Auburn by three scores, and lost to UAB. Hmm, seeing a trend here. Maybe LAMO was predictable. In '01, lost to a school from the state of Mississippi, which is always bad. Won first Sugar Bowl for LSU in over 35 years. Nice job. In '02, lost four of the last six. Sounds familiar. '03 was truly a great season but still marred by not playing the top ranked team and being champion. '04 was respectable, no one can complain about the season except he lost to a Big 10 team in the bowl. Jumped ship.

Alabama

2007 7-6, lost to LAMO and ended with a four game losing streak.

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

[AUBURNJAC 53]

AUBURNJAC - have you seen Melick's article today? In a interview with tot he pretty much says there is nothing Sabahr could have done. So basically Sabahr = Tot when it comes to discipline.

Link

Bowden says Saban might have had no choice but to back Johns

Thursday, June 26, 2008

Nick Saban has Jimmy Johns.

Terry Bowden had Robert Baker.

Bowden, who still is hurt by the 1998 arrest of Baker on one count of trafficking cocaine and two counts of distribution, says Saban may not have had much choice but to support Johns prior to the revelation of Johns' arrest on charges of selling cocaine.

Bowden says so from experience.

"I was very close to Robert," said Bowden, the former Auburn coach who helped Baker get an early release from prison and into the NFL. "But that caught me way off guard, because he looked me in the eye and said, `I swear I'd never do that.'

"... You have to stick with him because he's one of your players. If you don't have anything that tells you the stories you're hearing are true, you're worse off as a coach not to back your player, because if you don't, you risk losing your whole team."

There are some fans, of course, who would say that because of Bowden's recruitment of certain players such as Baker, Tommy Tuberville inherited a mess when he was hired to replace Bowden after the 1998 season.

"Of course, you say that," Bowden said. "You always come in and blame the previous coach. Any time you come into a new situation, you stress discipline. Then when you go, the next guy blames you.

"But as my dad (Bobby) always says, if strict discipline won ballgames, Army and Navy would be playing for the national championship every year."

Then again, jobs like Alabama rarely come open unless it's a tough situation. And former coach Mike Shula may have felt he had to take some chances on some players because he was recruiting under severe NCAA sanctions.

The question becomes, why didn't Saban clean house?

"Sometimes you come into a program like an Alabama, and you don't need to go backwards," said Bowden, who took over an Auburn program that was under severe NCAA penalties. "You've got to be careful when the team you're taking over has won six or seven games and that's considered unacceptable. ... Sometimes you try to make everyone feel they are part of the program, to hold things together.

"But it might also keep you from turning the program around as quickly as you'd like. I think Nick is transparent; he wants to win. If a guy is a menace to the team, he'll get rid of him. But if he thinks a kid can be saved or is an asset to the team, he'll keep him around."

Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.

But really, no coach can be sure because not only does he take on 25 players every year, he takes on 25 new histories that a coach knows very little about.

"Players haven't changed," Bowden said. "Parents have. You know, I had guys who only flunked drug tests in the summer, because they'd go home and their parents smoked (dope). You don't think that doesn't drive a coach crazy?"

In the end, whether Saban handled discipline issues correctly will be judged the way every coach is judged: by wins and losses.

"If you win, you'll be perceived as having done things the right way," Bowden said. "If you lose, then it was wrong. It's as simple as that."

Ray Melick's column appears Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Write him at rmelick@bhamnews.com.

© 2008 The Birmingham News

© 2008 al.com All Rights Reserved.

HOLY CRAP: I CAN'T BELIEVE I JUST READ THIS........

"But as my dad (Bobby) always says, if strict discipline won ballgames, Army and Navy would be playing for the national championship every year."

LMFAO

[CircleDrill 178]

It's unbelievable the people that are spinning this as no big deal....happens everywhere.

The Alabama football program is like a severely dysfunctional family. Their goal is to "look" like like a normal family to everybody else instead of taking care of business on a day-to-day basis so they are actually a normal, healty family and can do their thing and enjoy it.

[SouthLink02 8]

Honestly, I never want Alabama to fire a head coach. Because generally they make terrible hires. All my friends and I celebrated when they gave Shula that big contract. We got odd looks from the bammers. They thought it was such a glorious thing and we agreed. We love winning that game and being the most relevant team in the state.

And as an Auburn fan, I don't want Saban fired. I'm not convinced he's a great coach. He's a superb salesman, but coaching, meh. So I did a little research. Saban since he started coaching at major colleges:

Michigan St.

1995 6-5-1

1996 6-6

1997 7-5

1998 6-6

1999 9-2.

Four years of mediocre football followed by one breakout year. Granted there were a lot of obstacles at MSU, but Saban was almost fired and even when he had a breakthrough he still got blown out by Purdue and Wisconsin. He jumped ship before the bowl game.

LSU

2000 8-4

2001 10-3 (SEC Champion)

2002 8-5

2003 13-1 (NC)

2004 9-3

Much better. Two SEC Championships and one Natty. Of course, in the Natty they didn't play the team ranked number one in both polls. Out of his control but still open for skepticism. In '00, got woodshedded by Florida, lost to Auburn by three scores, and lost to UAB. Hmm, seeing a trend here. Maybe LAMO was predictable. In '01, lost to a school from the state of Mississippi, which is always bad. Won first Sugar Bowl for LSU in over 35 years. Nice job. In '02, lost four of the last six. Sounds familiar. '03 was truly a great season but still marred by not playing the top ranked team and being champion. '04 was respectable, no one can complain about the season except he lost to a Big 10 team in the bowl. Jumped ship.

Alabama

2007 7-6, lost to LAMO and ended with a four game losing streak.

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

AU Cav, you are selling short what he did at LSU, imo

Me and GG used to argue about this but I still believe I am correct. The situation Saban inherited at LSU was an absolute mess. An absolute MESS with up to half of his team academically questionable and the talent absolutely GONE at many positions. What Gerry DiNardo did leave him was a few STUDS like Davey, Faulk, and others but anywhere else was a bunch of nobody's. DiNardo's #1 1997 class was a disaster

LSU is who they are today because of Saban. They completely changed their recruiting tactics to shut down the state and they really upgraded their facilities with Saban pushing them

Everywhere here knows I hate LSU but the man built that program into their success today

[runswithscissors 33]

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

soooooo........

overall CNS is 99-48-1 in the NCAA with a MNC, two SECC, and one Mid-American Conference championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Saban), and was gone two years. CTT is 105-53 with one SECC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Tuberville). in any series vs. CTT, neither has won on the other's turf. the winner is always the home team. so, you're saying that since maybe 6 games separate the two and CNS has one more SECC and one more MNC than CTT, that CTT is just a world beater and CNS is chopped liver by comparison? i obviously do not think CTT is a bad coach at all, but this "average at best" coach that has "flashes of success" just must have had more flashes than CTT to bring home some hardware.

in addition, Steve Spurrier was 7-5 his first year back from the NFL, including a win in the Independence Bowl. he's averaging 7 wins a season and i don't see people here talking about how horrible he is.

[Hoopie 6]

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

soooooo........

overall CNS is 99-48-1 in the NCAA with a MNC, two SECC, and one Mid-American Conference championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Saban), and was gone two years. CTT is 105-53 with one SECC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Tuberville). in any series vs. CTT, neither has won on the other's turf. the winner is always the home team. so, you're saying that since maybe 6 games separate the two and CNS has one more SECC and one more MNC than CTT, that CTT is just a world beater and CNS is chopped liver by comparison? i obviously do not think CTT is a bad coach at all, but this "average at best" coach that has "flashes of success" just must have had more flashes than CTT to bring home some hardware.

in addition, Steve Spurrier was 7-5 his first year back from the NFL, including a win in the Independence Bowl. he's averaging 7 wins a season and i don't see people here talking about how horrible he is.

Newsflash....Shula left CN$ a lot more talent than Slobberin' Lou left Spurrier. According to Scout. com, CNs inherited about a #20 ranked rcruiting class. AU averaged 15 for the same class.

[runswithscissors 33]

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

soooooo........

overall CNS is 99-48-1 in the NCAA with a MNC, two SECC, and one Mid-American Conference championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Saban), and was gone two years. CTT is 105-53 with one SECC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Tuberville). in any series vs. CTT, neither has won on the other's turf. the winner is always the home team. so, you're saying that since maybe 6 games separate the two and CNS has one more SECC and one more MNC than CTT, that CTT is just a world beater and CNS is chopped liver by comparison? i obviously do not think CTT is a bad coach at all, but this "average at best" coach that has "flashes of success" just must have had more flashes than CTT to bring home some hardware.

in addition, Steve Spurrier was 7-5 his first year back from the NFL, including a win in the Independence Bowl. he's averaging 7 wins a season and i don't see people here talking about how horrible he is.

Newsflash....Shula left CN$ a lot more talent than Slobberin' Lou left Spurrier. According to Scout. com, CNs inherited about a #20 ranked rcruiting class. AU averaged 15 for the same class.

haven't you guys been telling us for months now that recruiting rankings don't mean anything? and that the talent that CNS left LSU doesn't mean anything? so why all of a sudden does it come into play here, just because you think its good to use for your argument?

[auwallace 6]

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

soooooo........

overall CNS is 99-48-1 in the NCAA with a MNC, two SECC, and one Mid-American Conference championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Saban), and was gone two years. CTT is 105-53 with one SECC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Tuberville). in any series vs. CTT, neither has won on the other's turf. the winner is always the home team. so, you're saying that since maybe 6 games separate the two and CNS has one more SECC and one more MNC than CTT, that CTT is just a world beater and CNS is chopped liver by comparison? i obviously do not think CTT is a bad coach at all, but this "average at best" coach that has "flashes of success" just must have had more flashes than CTT to bring home some hardware.

in addition, Steve Spurrier was 7-5 his first year back from the NFL, including a win in the Independence Bowl. he's averaging 7 wins a season and i don't see people here talking about how horrible he is.

Newsflash....Shula left CN$ a lot more talent than Slobberin' Lou left Spurrier. According to Scout. com, CNs inherited about a #20 ranked rcruiting class. AU averaged 15 for the same class.

haven't you guys been telling us for months now that recruiting rankings don't mean anything? and that the talent that CNS left LSU doesn't mean anything? so why all of a sudden does it come into play here, just because you think its good to use for your argument?

Are you disputing the claim that shula left more talent at UA than holtz left at USC? Or are you avoiding it by falsely lumping all auburn posters on the board and labeling them to hoopie's official opinion. The whole board doesn't claim recruiting doesn't matter. Furthermore you can't get upset when we generalize bammers if you're gonna pick and choose opinions and label them as those of the entire auburn fanbase.

[CircleDrill 178]

haven't you guys been telling us for months now that recruiting rankings don't mean anything? and that the talent that CNS left LSU doesn't mean anything? so why all of a sudden does it come into play here, just because you think its good to use for your argument?

I have to say that rws is right in this case. Saban is 22-23 in his last 3 seasons as a coach, proving that he is still a great coach. Cocaine distribution is not that big of a deal, and could happen anywhere. Saban inherited a runaway train created by Mike Shula, and can't be blamed for any of the problems. And half-game suspensions means Saban he cares about the kids, and is focusing on "being a champion in everything that we do."

[WAR-MATT 2]

Honestly, I never want Alabama to fire a head coach. Because generally they make terrible hires. All my friends and I celebrated when they gave Shula that big contract. We got odd looks from the bammers. They thought it was such a glorious thing and we agreed. We love winning that game and being the most relevant team in the state.

And as an Auburn fan, I don't want Saban fired. I'm not convinced he's a great coach. He's a superb salesman, but coaching, meh. So I did a little research. Saban since he started coaching at major colleges:

Michigan St.

1995 6-5-1

1996 6-6

1997 7-5

1998 6-6

1999 9-2.

Four years of mediocre football followed by one breakout year. Granted there were a lot of obstacles at MSU, but Saban was almost fired and even when he had a breakthrough he still got blown out by Purdue and Wisconsin. He jumped ship before the bowl game.

LSU

2000 8-4

2001 10-3 (SEC Champion)

2002 8-5

2003 13-1 (NC)

2004 9-3

Much better. Two SEC Championships and one Natty. Of course, in the Natty they didn't play the team ranked number one in both polls. Out of his control but still open for skepticism. In '00, got woodshedded by Florida, lost to Auburn by three scores, and lost to UAB. Hmm, seeing a trend here. Maybe LAMO was predictable. In '01, lost to a school from the state of Mississippi, which is always bad. Won first Sugar Bowl for LSU in over 35 years. Nice job. In '02, lost four of the last six. Sounds familiar. '03 was truly a great season but still marred by not playing the top ranked team and being champion. '04 was respectable, no one can complain about the season except he lost to a Big 10 team in the bowl. Jumped ship.

Alabama

2007 7-6, lost to LAMO and ended with a four game losing streak.

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

AU Cav, you are selling short what he did at LSU, imo

Me and GG used to argue about this but I still believe I am correct. The situation Saban inherited at LSU was an absolute mess. An absolute MESS with up to half of his team academically questionable and the talent absolutely GONE at many positions. What Gerry DiNardo did leave him was a few STUDS like Davey, Faulk, and others but anywhere else was a bunch of nobody's. DiNardo's #1 1997 class was a disaster

LSU is who they are today because of Saban. They completely changed their recruiting tactics to shut down the state and they really upgraded their facilities with Saban pushing them

Everywhere here knows I hate LSU but the man built that program into their success today

Saban had an entirely different situation at LSWho; more in-state talent, no major in-state recruiting rival, non-SEC territory to the west, no threat to the north (Ark) or the east (Miss). LSU's biggest threat from out of state were from the Big 12 schools. A coach that doesn't win there every year should be fired.

UAT = MSU

[runswithscissors 33]

Honestly, I never want Alabama to fire a head coach. Because generally they make terrible hires. All my friends and I celebrated when they gave Shula that big contract. We got odd looks from the bammers. They thought it was such a glorious thing and we agreed. We love winning that game and being the most relevant team in the state.

And as an Auburn fan, I don't want Saban fired. I'm not convinced he's a great coach. He's a superb salesman, but coaching, meh. So I did a little research. Saban since he started coaching at major colleges:

Michigan St.

1995 6-5-1

1996 6-6

1997 7-5

1998 6-6

1999 9-2.

Four years of mediocre football followed by one breakout year. Granted there were a lot of obstacles at MSU, but Saban was almost fired and even when he had a breakthrough he still got blown out by Purdue and Wisconsin. He jumped ship before the bowl game.

LSU

2000 8-4

2001 10-3 (SEC Champion)

2002 8-5

2003 13-1 (NC)

2004 9-3

Much better. Two SEC Championships and one Natty. Of course, in the Natty they didn't play the team ranked number one in both polls. Out of his control but still open for skepticism. In '00, got woodshedded by Florida, lost to Auburn by three scores, and lost to UAB. Hmm, seeing a trend here. Maybe LAMO was predictable. In '01, lost to a school from the state of Mississippi, which is always bad. Won first Sugar Bowl for LSU in over 35 years. Nice job. In '02, lost four of the last six. Sounds familiar. '03 was truly a great season but still marred by not playing the top ranked team and being champion. '04 was respectable, no one can complain about the season except he lost to a Big 10 team in the bowl. Jumped ship.

Alabama

2007 7-6, lost to LAMO and ended with a four game losing streak.

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

AU Cav, you are selling short what he did at LSU, imo

Me and GG used to argue about this but I still believe I am correct. The situation Saban inherited at LSU was an absolute mess. An absolute MESS with up to half of his team academically questionable and the talent absolutely GONE at many positions. What Gerry DiNardo did leave him was a few STUDS like Davey, Faulk, and others but anywhere else was a bunch of nobody's. DiNardo's #1 1997 class was a disaster

LSU is who they are today because of Saban. They completely changed their recruiting tactics to shut down the state and they really upgraded their facilities with Saban pushing them

Everywhere here knows I hate LSU but the man built that program into their success today

Saban had an entirely different situation at LSWho; more in-state talent, no major in-state recruiting rival, non-SEC territory to the west, no threat to the north (Ark) or the east (Miss). LSU's biggest threat from out of state were from the Big 12 schools. A coach that doesn't win there every year should be fired.

UAT = MSU

seeing as how between last year and this year you guys have only signed two people that we have mutually offered, i don't think CNS is having a very big problem with our major in-state recruiting rival. we signed 15 guys that AU offered in the 08 class. AU signed 0 guys we offered. UA even plucked Upshaw out of Eufaula. the state is a little short on talent this year, but we should pull the top talent in the state for the most part. so, again, please explain how exactly we are having a problem with in-state recruiting?

[WAR-MATT 2]

It's a marathon not a sprint my brother. December of 08' will be very telling.

[runswithscissors 33]

It's a marathon not a sprint my brother. December of 08' will be very telling.

in other words....your argument regarding in-state recruiting just got blown out of the water.

[AUdaREALsecTigers 2]

Honestly, I never want Alabama to fire a head coach. Because generally they make terrible hires. All my friends and I celebrated when they gave Shula that big contract. We got odd looks from the bammers. They thought it was such a glorious thing and we agreed. We love winning that game and being the most relevant team in the state.

And as an Auburn fan, I don't want Saban fired. I'm not convinced he's a great coach. He's a superb salesman, but coaching, meh. So I did a little research. Saban since he started coaching at major colleges:

Michigan St.

1995 6-5-1

1996 6-6

1997 7-5

1998 6-6

1999 9-2.

Four years of mediocre football followed by one breakout year. Granted there were a lot of obstacles at MSU, but Saban was almost fired and even when he had a breakthrough he still got blown out by Purdue and Wisconsin. He jumped ship before the bowl game.

LSU

2000 8-4

2001 10-3 (SEC Champion)

2002 8-5

2003 13-1 (NC)

2004 9-3

Much better. Two SEC Championships and one Natty. Of course, in the Natty they didn't play the team ranked number one in both polls. Out of his control but still open for skepticism. In '00, got woodshedded by Florida, lost to Auburn by three scores, and lost to UAB. Hmm, seeing a trend here. Maybe LAMO was predictable. In '01, lost to a school from the state of Mississippi, which is always bad. Won first Sugar Bowl for LSU in over 35 years. Nice job. In '02, lost four of the last six. Sounds familiar. '03 was truly a great season but still marred by not playing the top ranked team and being champion. '04 was respectable, no one can complain about the season except he lost to a Big 10 team in the bowl. Jumped ship.

Alabama

2007 7-6, lost to LAMO and ended with a four game losing streak.

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

AU Cav, you are selling short what he did at LSU, imo

Me and GG used to argue about this but I still believe I am correct. The situation Saban inherited at LSU was an absolute mess. An absolute MESS with up to half of his team academically questionable and the talent absolutely GONE at many positions. What Gerry DiNardo did leave him was a few STUDS like Davey, Faulk, and others but anywhere else was a bunch of nobody's. DiNardo's #1 1997 class was a disaster

LSU is who they are today because of Saban. They completely changed their recruiting tactics to shut down the state and they really upgraded their facilities with Saban pushing them

Everywhere here knows I hate LSU but the man built that program into their success today

Saban had an entirely different situation at LSWho; more in-state talent, no major in-state recruiting rival, non-SEC territory to the west, no threat to the north (Ark) or the east (Miss). LSU's biggest threat from out of state were from the Big 12 schools. A coach that doesn't win there every year should be fired.

UAT = MSU

seeing as how between last year and this year you guys have only signed two people that we have mutually offered, i don't think CNS is having a very big problem with our major in-state recruiting rival. we signed 15 guys that AU offered in the 08 class. AU signed 0 guys we offered. UA even plucked Upshaw out of Eufaula. the state is a little short on talent this year, but we should pull the top talent in the state for the most part. so, again, please explain how exactly we are having a problem with in-state recruiting?

Really? Never heard you or any other bama fan say that before...

[CircleDrill 178]

What is so freaking hilarous about this thread is that the topic is bammers should demand discipline from Saban, and we wind up talking about recruitin' nashnul championships.

How about get back to topic...?

Saban is 22-23 in his last 3 seasons as a football coach. Two of those he had WAAAAY better talent and didn't know what to do with it. He has had 10 arrests in the previous year to go along with a 7-win season. He has allowed a cocaine distributor to remain on his team, and was going to play in 2008 according to several print source, though it conflicts with bammer word-of-mouth. He has dropped the ball on more than one occasion when he had the chance to do the right thing (i.e. DJ Hall miraculous half-game suspension...i.e. lying about "it was what it was" afterward).

He has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prove that he is a good coach on July 3, 2008. He WAS a good coach 4+ years ago.

He will never discipline that team, and next arrest you have, we will be right back here talking about the same old thing with different bammer spin.

[WarTiger 3,915]

What is so freaking hilarous about this thread is that the topic is bammers should demand discipline from Saban, and we wind up talking about recruitin' nashnul championships.

How about get back to topic...?

Saban is 22-23 in his last 3 seasons as a football coach. Two of those he had WAAAAY better talent and didn't know what to do with it. He has had 10 arrests in the previous year to go along with a 7-win season. He has allowed a cocaine distributor to remain on his team, and was going to play in 2008 according to several print source, though it conflicts with bammer word-of-mouth. He has dropped the ball on more than one occasion when he had the chance to do the right thing (i.e. DJ Hall miraculous half-game suspension...i.e. lying about "it was what it was" afterward).

He has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prove that he is a good coach on July 3, 2008. He WAS a good coach 4+ years ago.

He will never discipline that team, and next arrest you have, we will be right back here talking about the same old thing with different bammer spin.

BINGO!!

But, do you really expect the bammers to stay on topic given the myriad of issues they have in their program? I mean, they are too busy running off at the mouth about that #1 (paper ranking) they received a few months ago even though its totally meaningless until they win games. I don't see much of that happening in the near future.

[runswithscissors 33]

What is so freaking hilarous about this thread is that the topic is bammers should demand discipline from Saban, and we wind up talking about recruitin' nashnul championships.

How about get back to topic...?

Saban is 22-23 in his last 3 seasons as a football coach. Two of those he had WAAAAY better talent and didn't know what to do with it. He has had 10 arrests in the previous year to go along with a 7-win season. He has allowed a cocaine distributor to remain on his team, and was going to play in 2008 according to several print source, though it conflicts with bammer word-of-mouth. He has dropped the ball on more than one occasion when he had the chance to do the right thing (i.e. DJ Hall miraculous half-game suspension...i.e. lying about "it was what it was" afterward).

He has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prove that he is a good coach on July 3, 2008. He WAS a good coach 4+ years ago.

He will never discipline that team, and next arrest you have, we will be right back here talking about the same old thing with different bammer spin.

BINGO!!

But, do you really expect the bammers to stay on topic given the myriad of issues they have in their program? I mean, they are too busy running off at the mouth about that #1 (paper ranking) they received a few months ago even though its totally meaningless until they win games. I don't see much of that happening in the near future.

oh, really? recruiting was not even mentioned until Hoopie mentioned it. then i replied that you guys have been telling us for months recruiting doesn't count, etc so why should that argument apply here? then WAR-MATT interjected about recruiting and talent. so please tell me how i was the one that brought up talent or recruiting?

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

soooooo........

overall CNS is 99-48-1 in the NCAA with a MNC, two SECC, and one Mid-American Conference championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Saban), and was gone two years. CTT is 105-53 with one SECC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Tuberville). in any series vs. CTT, neither has won on the other's turf. the winner is always the home team. so, you're saying that since maybe 6 games separate the two and CNS has one more SECC and one more MNC than CTT, that CTT is just a world beater and CNS is chopped liver by comparison? i obviously do not think CTT is a bad coach at all, but this "average at best" coach that has "flashes of success" just must have had more flashes than CTT to bring home some hardware.

in addition, Steve Spurrier was 7-5 his first year back from the NFL, including a win in the Independence Bowl. he's averaging 7 wins a season and i don't see people here talking about how horrible he is.

Newsflash....Shula left CN$ a lot more talent than Slobberin' Lou left Spurrier. According to Scout. com, CNs inherited about a #20 ranked rcruiting class. AU averaged 15 for the same class.

and then....

Honestly, I never want Alabama to fire a head coach. Because generally they make terrible hires. All my friends and I celebrated when they gave Shula that big contract. We got odd looks from the bammers. They thought it was such a glorious thing and we agreed. We love winning that game and being the most relevant team in the state.

And as an Auburn fan, I don't want Saban fired. I'm not convinced he's a great coach. He's a superb salesman, but coaching, meh. So I did a little research. Saban since he started coaching at major colleges:

Michigan St.

1995 6-5-1

1996 6-6

1997 7-5

1998 6-6

1999 9-2.

Four years of mediocre football followed by one breakout year. Granted there were a lot of obstacles at MSU, but Saban was almost fired and even when he had a breakthrough he still got blown out by Purdue and Wisconsin. He jumped ship before the bowl game.

LSU

2000 8-4

2001 10-3 (SEC Champion)

2002 8-5

2003 13-1 (NC)

2004 9-3

Much better. Two SEC Championships and one Natty. Of course, in the Natty they didn't play the team ranked number one in both polls. Out of his control but still open for skepticism. In '00, got woodshedded by Florida, lost to Auburn by three scores, and lost to UAB. Hmm, seeing a trend here. Maybe LAMO was predictable. In '01, lost to a school from the state of Mississippi, which is always bad. Won first Sugar Bowl for LSU in over 35 years. Nice job. In '02, lost four of the last six. Sounds familiar. '03 was truly a great season but still marred by not playing the top ranked team and being champion. '04 was respectable, no one can complain about the season except he lost to a Big 10 team in the bowl. Jumped ship.

Alabama

2007 7-6, lost to LAMO and ended with a four game losing streak.

Saban is definitely one thing: Good salesman. Average coach at best. Flashes of success. Yeah, I'm all for keeping this guy around. There's something to be said about the salesman who moves around a lot. When people start to see the product for what it really is, it gets harder to sell.

Let's keep Nick Saban around. He's good for some nice losing streaks and ridiculous upset losses. He's done more bad than good. Just the type of coach I like to see at UAT.

Oh yeah, and he's 2-4 vs Tubs.

AU Cav, you are selling short what he did at LSU, imo

Me and GG used to argue about this but I still believe I am correct. The situation Saban inherited at LSU was an absolute mess. An absolute MESS with up to half of his team academically questionable and the talent absolutely GONE at many positions. What Gerry DiNardo did leave him was a few STUDS like Davey, Faulk, and others but anywhere else was a bunch of nobody's. DiNardo's #1 1997 class was a disaster

LSU is who they are today because of Saban. They completely changed their recruiting tactics to shut down the state and they really upgraded their facilities with Saban pushing them

Everywhere here knows I hate LSU but the man built that program into their success today

Saban had an entirely different situation at LSWho; more in-state talent, no major in-state recruiting rival, non-SEC territory to the west, no threat to the north (Ark) or the east (Miss). LSU's biggest threat from out of state were from the Big 12 schools. A coach that doesn't win there every year should be fired.

UAT = MSU

[WAR-MATT 2]

It's a marathon not a sprint my brother. December of 08' will be very telling.

in other words....your argument regarding in-state recruiting just got blown out of the water.

1 year of Saban being treated like a "rock star" by the instate media and UAT offering immediate playing time at every position is being blown out of the water? you and your fanbase are in for a hard fall. remeber how "SI's bama's back" bit you in the butt? The RNC will as well. Have a good fourth.

[SouthLink02 8]

Saban had an entirely different situation at LSWho; more in-state talent, no major in-state recruiting rival, non-SEC territory to the west, no threat to the north (Ark) or the east (Miss). LSU's biggest threat from out of state were from the Big 12 schools. A coach that doesn't win there every year should be fired.

UAT = MSU

I agree. I also think the West wasn't nearly as good then as it is today. I don't think Saban wins 2 SEC Titles in the next 3 years either....

But I do think he wins the SEC once in the next 3 years

[WAR-MATT 2]

Saban had an entirely different situation at LSWho; more in-state talent, no major in-state recruiting rival, non-SEC territory to the west, no threat to the north (Ark) or the east (Miss). LSU's biggest threat from out of state were from the Big 12 schools. A coach that doesn't win there every year should be fired.

UAT = MSU

I agree. I also think the West wasn't nearly as good then as it is today. I don't think Saban wins 2 SEC Titles in the next 3 years either....

But I do think he wins the SEC once in the next 3 years

if he's still around.

[CircleDrill 178]

But I do think he wins the SEC once in the next 3 years

He may do it, but it won't be at Alabama. Are you kidding me?

[WinCrimson 61]

CircleDrill:

Two of those he had WAAAAY better talent and didn't know what to do with it.

Look, CD, I'll admit that you've shown yourself to be a pretty level headed guy at times. Yet, this comment is so far off-base it's not even funny.

He had "WAAAAY" better talent at Miami than he did at LSU or does at Alabama, but no in comparison to the other teams he faced. I hate to make the same point in two separate threads, but you leave me no choice. Surely you see the flaw in that statement.

As an example, imagine a high school coach going from Prattville High to Baylor. At Baylor, he'll obviously have much better talent but will also be facing much better talent than what is on his team. Yet, you claim he should automatically be beating Oklahoma, Texas, and Nebraska simply because his new players are better than the ones back in Prattville? C'mon, Drill.