Midway Point of the Season. Auburn is at a Crossroads

[AUAlumnTN 211]

32 minutes ago, DAG said:

Okay but again Art Briles is in his circle. I am sure he wants to win HIS WAY is my point. He has been struggling for how many years now? He went from they are forcing me to not interfere, back to I am doing it my own way. I just find it odd for someone who is mightily struggle to continue doing the same things over and over.  I find it extremely odd that I hear from insiders that he was ultimately the one not listening to his offensive line coaches as far as recruiting goes. To me, if this is the case and I see very minimal adaptation , it is hard for me to understand the concept of someone doing there very best at what they were hired to do. Like I said before , NS made a 180 on his offensive philosophy starting with Lane Kiffin. That says something. 

I think Nick Saban is the exception that proves the rule in this case. How many good-to-great coaches have been fired over the years because the game has passed them by or they stuck with an assistant or a concept or a philosophy well past its sell by date? I can think of a few (Les Miles, Tubs, Mack Brown, etc.). Every college and NFL coach has an ego, it's part and parcel to the profession. It's human nature to stick with what's worked for you in the past and especially so for someone with an ego like your average big time coach. Nick Saban's willingness to adapt and change stick out BECAUSE it's such a rare quality. 

[DAG 33,980]

8 minutes ago, AUAlumnTN said:

I think Nick Saban is the exception that proves the rule in this case. How many good-to-great coaches have been fired over the years because the game has passed them by or they stuck with an assistant or a concept or a philosophy well past its sell by date? I can think of a few (Les Miles, Tubs, Mack Brown, etc.). Every college and NFL coach has an ego, it's part and parcel to the profession. It's human nature to stick with what's worked for you in the past and especially so for someone with an ego like your average big time coach. Nick Saban's willingness to adapt and change stick out BECAUSE it's such a rare quality. 

Legit the coaches you just named I would not consider to be good to great with the exception of Mack. And the main reason I say Mack is because he is producing higher standards at UNC. Les Miles is not a good coach. Above average for sure. I think Tubs is above average too. I do agree though it is rare quality hence why those rare commodities get paid the bucks they do. Same reason why a CV surgeon gets paid what they do. Gus is getting paid the money that type of dollar to display that rarity. And I think that is one of the major problems. We have just given average to above average coaches tons of rewards and security without forcing them to be accountable and to grow.

[bigbird 60,512]

On 10/26/2020 at 12:16 PM, Tigerpro2a said:

Dont you guys realize Gus is playing 4D chess? 

Yes, but everyone else is playing football

[AUAlumnTN 211]

Just now, DAG said:

Legit the coaches you just named I would not consider to be good to great with the exception of Mack. And the main reason I say Mack is because he is producing higher standards at UNC. Les Miles is not a good coach. Above average for sure. I think Tubs is above average too. I do agree though it is rare quality hence why those rare commodities get paid the bucks they do. Same reason why a CV surgeon gets paid what they do. Gus is getting paid the money that type of dollar to display that rarity. 

Les Miles won a NC and played for another and Tubs has an undefeated season on his resume. I don't know if they're all time greats but I think "good" is a fair assessment. To your point though, I think Auburn fans would have a MUCH different opinion of Gus if he was getting paid say $3 million a year. Instead, he is currently one of the ten highest paid coaches in college football. His salary contemporaries all have either a NC or a playoff appearance on their resumes. The only exceptions: Dan Mullen, who in his third season as head Gator has as many 10 win seasons as Gus has in 8 years at Auburn, Gary Patterson, who's the winningest coach in school history at TCU, Jim Harbaugh, who everyone except Michigan fans thinks needs to be fired, and Jimbo Fisher, who's rapidly exhausting his goodwill in Aggieland and was probably overpaid in the first place. I think that's really what ALL of this comes down to. Auburn is paying Gus top 10 money to get top 50 results. 

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,662]

I think they need to suck enough to get Gus out of here if you want Auburn football to be good. I also think they're close enough to at least finish second in the SEC. horrible situation to be in. 

[DAG 33,980]

8 minutes ago, AUAlumnTN said:

Les Miles won a NC and played for another and Tubs has an undefeated season on his resume. I don't know if they're all time greats but I think "good" is a fair assessment. To your point though, I think Auburn fans would have a MUCH different opinion of Gus if he was getting paid say $3 million a year. Instead, he is currently one of the ten highest paid coaches in college football. His salary contemporaries all have either a NC or a playoff appearance on their resumes. The only exceptions: Dan Mullen, who in his third season as head Gator has as many 10 win seasons as Gus has in 8 years at Auburn, Gary Patterson, who's the winningest coach in school history at TCU, Jim Harbaugh, who everyone except Michigan fans thinks needs to be fired, and Jimbo Fisher, who's rapidly exhausting his goodwill in Aggieland and was probably overpaid in the first place. I think that's really what ALL of this comes down to. Auburn is paying Gus top 10 money to get top 50 results. 

And gene Chizik won a NC . Does that make him a good to great coach ? My point remains, if you are a great leader and you are doing your very best to achieve great outcomes then wouldn’t you put what’s best for the team before your own ego? For whatever reason this logic applies every else practically speaking except for football. 

[AUAlumnTN 211]

37 minutes ago, DAG said:

And gene Chizik won a NC . Does that make him a good to great coach ? My point remains, if you are a great leader and you are doing your very best to achieve great outcomes then wouldn’t you put what’s best for the team before your own ego? For whatever reason this logic applies every else practically speaking except for football. 

Les and Tubs both coached in the SEC for a decade plus and are well over .500. They don't have to be on anyone's shortlist of best ever to qualify as good. I chose them as my example to illustrate two examples of successful coaches who were done in by their inability to adapt to the changing landscape. Fill in your example of this if you'd like. I'm sure there are plenty more. 

Ideally, yes, great leaders put the good of the organization ahead of themselves and change with the times but we both know that's not always how the cookie crumbles. Ego is a hell of drug and history is full of successful people done in by their egos. Benedict Arnold was a tremendously successful general whose name is now synonymous with traitor largely because he didn't feel he was sufficiently recognized by his superiors. People aren't always logical. 

[DAG 33,980]

13 minutes ago, AUAlumnTN said:

Les and Tubs both coached in the SEC for a decade plus and are well over .500. They don't have to be on anyone's shortlist of best ever to qualify as good. I chose them as my example to illustrate two examples of successful coaches who were done in by their inability to adapt to the changing landscape. Fill in your example of this if you'd like. I'm sure there are plenty more. 

Ideally, yes, great leaders put the good of the organization ahead of themselves and change with the times but we both know that's not always how the cookie crumbles. Ego is a hell of drug and history is full of successful people done in by their egos. Benedict Arnold was a tremendously successful general whose name is now synonymous with traitor largely because he didn't feel he was sufficiently recognized by his superiors. People aren't always logical. 

Yes and neither of them could replicate those highs  after their stints at schools like Auburn or LSU. Nor were they able to do so at any of the schools prior to those stints. I don’t even know what you are even debating anymore. IMO, you are not a great leader if your ego does you in to your demise. A great leader is one who knows what they know and knows what they don’t. That is why IMO a great leader can transition their vision in multiple circumstances and settings. You are equating leadership with success. That’s just not the case.  James harden is a very successful basketball player. That does not mean he is a great leader.

Gus Malzahn transcended a game. He made waves with his style of play. He quickly paved a way for high school coaches to get to the college ranks. I think Gus is a highly successful coach. I don’t think Gus is a great leader by any means

[AUAlumnTN 211]

4 minutes ago, DAG said:

Yes and neither of them could replicate those highs  after their stints at schools like Auburn or LSU. Nor were they able to do so at any of the schools prior to those stints. I don’t even know what you are even debating anymore. IMO, you are not a great leader if your ego does you in to your demise. A great leader is one who knows what they know and knows what they don’t. That is why IMO a great leader can transition their vision in multiple circumstances and settings. You are equating leadership with success. That’s just not the case.  James harden is a very successful basketball player. That does not mean he is a great leader.

Gus Malzahn transcended a game. He made waves with his style of play. He quickly paved a way for high school coaches to get to the college ranks. I think Gus is a highly successful coach. I don’t think Gus is a great leader by any means

Dude, I'm honestly not trying to debate you. I agree with your central premise that Gus is stubborn and refuses to change with the times and that is a significant part of his problem. What I was trying to point out is that he is not the first successful coach to have that problem and that this stubbornness and ego is not uncommon among big time college football coaches. However, you keep nitpicking my examples and missing the forest of what I'm trying to say for the "Les Miles may or may not be a good coach" trees. 

[DAG 33,980]

7 minutes ago, AUAlumnTN said:

What I was trying to point out is that he is not the first successful coach to have that problem and that this stubbornness and ego is not uncommon among big time college football coaches.

Well no crap. That wasn’t the point of anything I posted today. I never once said any of the people want successful. I simply was saying them being successful doesn’t make them GOOD or GREAT as you pointed out. 

[Amwest20 139]

1 hour ago, AUAlumnTN said:

I think Nick Saban is the exception that proves the rule in this case. How many good-to-great coaches have been fired over the years because the game has passed them by or they stuck with an assistant or a concept or a philosophy well past its sell by date? I can think of a few (Les Miles, Tubs, Mack Brown, etc.). Every college and NFL coach has an ego, it's part and parcel to the profession. It's human nature to stick with what's worked for you in the past and especially so for someone with an ego like your average big time coach. Nick Saban's willingness to adapt and change stick out BECAUSE it's such a rare quality. 

Nick Saban has built one of the most dominating dynasties in college football history at Bama.  Since y’all are comparing the two, let’s do it.  
 

Gus is in his 9th year with 8 full years of head coaching experience.  During that time, he is 71-34 with a 67.62% winning percentage.  He turns 55 years old tomorrow.  
 

NS after 8 years of college head coaching was 61-32-1 with at 64.89% winning percent.  He turns 69 Saturday.  

 

Call something out if anything I mentioned is inaccurate.  I’m not saying that Gus will ever do better.  I personally see it as something that actually could happen as Saban turned it around after a few  more years of experience.  This isn’t me saying keep Gus by any stretch.  This is simply me comparing the two at the same points of their careers based on bottom line wins/losses.  Gus has had harder competition IMO.  Please respond with healthy discussion.   

[AUAlumnTN 211]

54 minutes ago, DAG said:

Well no crap. That wasn’t the point of anything I posted today. I never once said any of the people want successful. I simply was saying them being successful doesn’t make them GOOD or GREAT as you pointed out. 

Dude, again. I was AGREEING with you. You argued that Nick Saban is successful because he changes with the times and Gus isn't because he doesn't. I mentioned Tubs and Les as examples to illustrate that this isn't an uncommon thing and it's a trap many coaches fall into. Whether or not they are "good" coaches or just "successful" coaches (whatever the hell that distinction to mean) is completely ancillary to the point I was making. Please please please tell me we didn't just have this entire back and forth over something that pedantic. 

[aubaseball 2,595]

33 minutes ago, Amwest20 said:

Nick Saban has built one of the most dominating dynasties in college football history at Bama.  Since y’all are comparing the two, let’s do it.  
 

Gus is in his 9th year with 8 full years of head coaching experience.  During that time, he is 71-34 with a 67.62% winning percentage.  He turns 55 years old tomorrow.  
 

NS after 8 years of college head coaching was 61-32-1 with at 64.89% winning percent.  He turns 69 Saturday.  

 

Call something out if anything I mentioned is inaccurate.  I’m not saying that Gus will ever do better.  I personally see it as something that actually could happen as Saban turned it around after a few  more years of experience.  This isn’t me saying keep Gus by any stretch.  This is simply me comparing the two at the same points of their careers based on bottom line wins/losses.  Gus has had harder competition IMO.  Please respond with healthy discussion.   

Nothing that you stated is inaccurate as far as the win/loss results go.   The biggest thing you did not mention was the trajectory of Saban compared to Gus.   

Starting with MSU, Saban took over a team that was at the bottom of the big ten and turned it around.   He took LSU to the National Championship.  He turned Alabama into something that was even better than when Bear Bryant roamed the sidelines.  

Gus went from reaching the top in his first year to putting a product on the field that no one is impressed with.  I would say that the trajectory of the team is trending down.   

[Amwest20 139]

1 minute ago, aubaseball said:

Nothing that you stated is inaccurate as far as the win/loss results go.   The biggest thing you did not mention was the trajectory of Saban compared to Gus.   

Starting with MSU, Saban took over a team that was at the bottom of the big ten and turned it around.   He took LSU to the National Championship.  He turned Alabama into something that was even better than when Bear Bryant roamed the sidelines.  

Gus went from reaching the top in his first year to putting a product on the field that no one is impressed with.  I would say that the trajectory of the team is trending down.   

Would another way of saying it be that Gus seems to always be mediocre/little above average ?  

[Amwest20 139]

6 minutes ago, aubaseball said:

Nothing that you stated is inaccurate as far as the win/loss results go.   The biggest thing you did not mention was the trajectory of Saban compared to Gus.   

Starting with MSU, Saban took over a team that was at the bottom of the big ten and turned it around.   He took LSU to the National Championship.  He turned Alabama into something that was even better than when Bear Bryant roamed the sidelines.  

Gus went from reaching the top in his first year to putting a product on the field that no one is impressed with.  I would say that the trajectory of the team is trending down.   

It would also be fair to say that Gus took over a team that just had perhaps the worst season in program history in 2012.  

[DAG 33,980]

7 minutes ago, aubaseball said:

Nothing that you stated is inaccurate as far as the win/loss results go.   The biggest thing you did not mention was the trajectory of Saban compared to Gus.   

Starting with MSU, Saban took over a team that was at the bottom of the big ten and turned it around.   He took LSU to the National Championship.  He turned Alabama into something that was even better than when Bear Bryant roamed the sidelines.  

Gus went from reaching the top in his first year to putting a product on the field that no one is impressed with.  I would say that the trajectory of the team is trending down.   

We did ! Hahah 

[Mike4AU 1,739]

2 minutes ago, Amwest20 said:

Would another way of saying it be that Gus seems to always be mediocre/little above average ?  

You are good with statistics.  How about removing the cupcake wins from Gus’ record then give us his winning percentage.  No, I don’t want to compare that figure to any other coach. I would just like to know what that number is. 

[aubaseball 2,595]

6 minutes ago, Amwest20 said:

It would also be fair to say that Gus took over a team that just had perhaps the worst season in program history in 2012.  

Yes.  But he also took over a team that had won a National championship two years prior to that.   

Auburn has always been Jekyll and Hyde.   

[Amwest20 139]

1 minute ago, Mike4AU said:

You are good with statistics.  How about removing the cupcake wins from Gus’ record then give us his winning percentage.  No, I don’t want to compare that figure to any other coach. I would just like to know what that number is. 

Thanks I try.  Not sure.  As I’m not going to go through each season and deduct the cupcakes.  Generally there’s 1 cream puff game and one game against a non power 5 school per year... I think... 

[Amwest20 139]

Just now, aubaseball said:

Yes.  But he also took over a team that had won a National championship two years prior to that.   

Auburn has always been Jekyll and Hyde.   

Yea I know, just sayin... we had a rock bottom year for the history books the year he took over.  

[Viper 3,132]

3 hours ago, AUAlumnTN said:

I think Nick Saban is the exception that proves the rule in this case. How many good-to-great coaches have been fired over the years because the game has passed them by or they stuck with an assistant or a concept or a philosophy well past its sell by date? I can think of a few (Les Miles, Tubs, Mack Brown, etc.). Every college and NFL coach has an ego, it's part and parcel to the profession. It's human nature to stick with what's worked for you in the past and especially so for someone with an ego like your average big time coach. Nick Saban's willingness to adapt and change stick out BECAUSE it's such a rare quality. 

Unfortunately can't disagree about a man I loath. He's the pest that attempted to end the HUNH by saying...

"I think that the way people are going no-huddle right now, that at some point in time, we should look at how fast we allow the game to go in terms of player safety. The team gets in the same formation group, you can't substitute defensive players, you go on a 14-, 16-, 18-play drive and they're snapping the ball as fast as you can go and you look out there and all your players are walking around and can't even get lined up. That's when guys have a much greater chance of getting hurt when they're not ready to play. I think that's something that can be looked at. I just think there's got to be some sense of fairness in terms of asking is this what we want football to be?"

Then when the man gets shot down by the NCAA after demanding a meeting with the rules committee, the hypocrite starts using it against his opponents. So all along, he never cared about player safety. He only cared about "fairness." Like you said, he adapted...BEGRUDGINGLY. A major factor is because of 2013 Auburn. He immediately hired Kiffin and has only sped up his offense from that point. To hell with "player safety," right Nick?

[Amwest20 139]

1 minute ago, Viper said:

Unfortunately can't disagree about a man I loath. He's the pest that attempted to end the HUNH by saying...

"I think that the way people are going no-huddle right now, that at some point in time, we should look at how fast we allow the game to go in terms of player safety. The team gets in the same formation group, you can't substitute defensive players, you go on a 14-, 16-, 18-play drive and they're snapping the ball as fast as you can go and you look out there and all your players are walking around and can't even get lined up. That's when guys have a much greater chance of getting hurt when they're not ready to play. I think that's something that can be looked at. I just think there's got to be some sense of fairness in terms of asking is this what we want football to be?"

Then when the man gets shot down by the NCAA after demanding a meeting with the rules committee, the hypocrite starts using it against his opponents. So all along, he never cared about player safety. He only cared about "fairness." Like you said, he adapted. A major factor is because of 2013 Auburn. He immediately hired Kiffin and has only sped up his offense from that point. To hell with "player safety," right Nick?

It’s pretty fun beating him though isn’t it?  more often than any other team anyway.  I sure do enjoy it! 

[Viper 3,132]

10 minutes ago, Amwest20 said:

It’s pretty fun beating him though isn’t it?  more often than any other team anyway.  I sure do enjoy it! 

Def is, but as others have pointed out with our recruiting dumpster fire, the 2019 IB win will very likely be the last one for Gus. I've poked at bammer buds for years that the most they can reel off against us with the GOAT HC is three consecutive...right on the heels of Tubbs doing six. Afraid that's going to change. And it's only going to get worse when Yabo & Venables take over when dink retires.

[AUAlumnTN 211]

1 hour ago, Amwest20 said:

Nick Saban has built one of the most dominating dynasties in college football history at Bama.  Since y’all are comparing the two, let’s do it.  
 

Gus is in his 9th year with 8 full years of head coaching experience.  During that time, he is 71-34 with a 67.62% winning percentage.  He turns 55 years old tomorrow.  
 

NS after 8 years of college head coaching was 61-32-1 with at 64.89% winning percent.  He turns 69 Saturday.  

 

Call something out if anything I mentioned is inaccurate.  I’m not saying that Gus will ever do better.  I personally see it as something that actually could happen as Saban turned it around after a few  more years of experience.  This isn’t me saying keep Gus by any stretch.  This is simply me comparing the two at the same points of their careers based on bottom line wins/losses.  Gus has had harder competition IMO.  Please respond with healthy discussion.   

Saban was 51 years old during his 9th season as a head coach. It would help your argument to point out their relative ages at the same point in their coaching careers. 

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in your argument however I do think context is important. In those first eight years, Nick Saban twice took over programs that had been wandering the proverbial wilderness for years in LSU and Michigan State. In both cases, he brought them to respectability (in MSU's case) and prominence (LSU). Gus took over a program at the bottom of a roller coaster and, aside from 2013, has mostly treaded water. He's been a consistent top 25-ish coach. 

There are two things working against him. 1. He's being paid top 10 money and has delivered less than top 10 results, to put it charitably and 2. I struggle to think of a coach that has significantly altered their team's trajectory after eight years on the job at a particular school. The Auburn version of Gus Malzahn is who he is at this point. If the trajectory of his coaching career is going to change, I believe it will have to happen somewhere that isn't here. 

[Amwest20 139]

1 minute ago, Viper said:

Def is, but as others have pointed out with our recruiting dumpster fire, the 2019 IB win will very likely be the last one for Gus. I've poked at bammer buds for years that the most they can reel off against us with the GOAT HC is three consecutive...right on the heels of Tubbs doing six. Afraid that's going to change.

I hope your wrong.  War eagle