Is it time for a serious conversation about Gun Control?

[McLoofus 35,182]

On 2/17/2018 at 9:12 PM, Mims44 said:

I know an easy fix...

Need to get some PTSD crazed combat veterans in these schools, strap some Kevlar around their chest, arm them with M16's/M4's and tell them to, ya know... just do whatever.

Sell it as "United States military-trained professionals" and a very large segment of the population would cheer for the idea without asking any questions. Anything is better than limiting access to extraordinarily efficient tools of murder. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

15 hours ago, japantiger said:

Posts like this are why we can't have nice things...why didn't you just call him and everyone else who disagrees with you a deplorable for shorthand.  The title of this thread is "Is it time for a serious conversation...."....seems like you think "it's not time...."

The irony and accompanying lack of self-awareness with a few around here is consistent, if nothing else. 

[Mikey 16,579]

On 2/19/2018 at 12:12 AM, TexasTiger said:

Link doesn't work.

Here's a more accurate assessment of the situation worldwide:

https://www.thejacknews.com/law/gun-rights/the-united-states-does-not-have-more-mass-shootings-than-europe/

[Mikey 16,579]

13 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

In 1954, I bet you never rode in a car seat and very few people, if any, wore seatbelts. Certainly nobody wore a helmet on a bicycle, and football coaches thought drinking water during practice in 100 degree heat was a sign of weakness. 

As discussed earlier, Charles Whitman shot 17 people in 1966. It took him 96 minutes. I wonder why he didn't use a more efficient weapon? I mean, everybody had one even 12 years earlier than that, right? 

Yes, shootings are going to happen. We're not even trying to limit them, though. Bizarre.

Military surplus M-1 and M-2  carbines were readily available. https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/the-m2-carbine-1945.html 

That's a fully capable "assault rifle" for those that must see the term.

Had Whitman chosen an enclosed school he could have duplicated the last tragedy. The thing is, if we want change, looking at guns is looking in the wrong direction. Guns capable of these things have been here a long time. It isn't guns that have changed, people have changed, some for the worse. Sociologists are always looking for something to investigate, lets give them a job.

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, Mikey said:

Military surplus M-1 and M-2  carbines were readily available. https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/the-m2-carbine-1945.html 

That's a fully capable "assault rifle" for those that must see the term.

Had Whitman chosen an enclosed school he could have duplicated the last tragedy. The thing is, if we want change, looking at guns is looking in the wrong direction. Guns capable of these things have been here a long time. It isn't guns that have changed, people have changed, some for the worse. Sociologists are always looking for something to investigate, lets give them a job.

100% agree with you there.

The CDC is also always looking for something to investigate. Let's give them a job.

Let's throw everything we have at this. Including making completely unnecessary firepower less readily available. 

By the way, it was stupid back then, too, just like all those other things I mentioned that we've changed to make life last longer. 

[TexasTiger 12,835]

On 2/19/2018 at 7:40 AM, Mikey said:

Here's a more accurate assessment of the situation worldwide:

https://www.thejacknews.com/law/gun-rights/the-united-states-does-not-have-more-mass-shootings-than-europe/

The first link didn’t work.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

12 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

You think the problem is evil. The problem is almost exclusively American. Thus, you must think we have an unmatched level of evil in this country.

You literally make no sense with your leaps and bounds of logic. Good grief. What incompetence you've shown. "He said it's hard to legislate evil. He must think America is more evil than North Korea!" The inferences you've opened up to be drawn from your comment should embarrass you. 

There is evil in America, which is hard to legislate. The hell if that means one holds America is overwhelmingly the most evil country in the world. 

 

[homersapien 11,367]

35 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

You literally make no sense with your leaps and bounds of logic. Good grief. What incompetence you've shown. "He said it's hard to legislate evil. He must think America is more evil than North Korea!" The inferences you've opened up to be drawn from your comment should embarrass you. 

There is evil in America, which is hard to legislate. The hell if that means one holds America is overwhelmingly the most evil country in the world. 

 

Seriously?  You really don't follow the logic? 

These shootings are caused by evil.  There shootings are a uniquely American.  America has a unique problem with evil.  

Seems pretty straightforward to me.  

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Seriously?  You really don't follow the logic? 

These shootings are caused by evil.  There shootings are a uniquely American.  America has a unique problem with evil.  

Seems pretty straightforward to me.  

Huh??? What do you mean by "shootings are uniquely American?" How would they not be uniquely American? I mean hell, murder is illegal,  but it happens in America a lot. Would that mean murder is uniquely American also? 

Notwithstanding what's in bold, that in no way means one thinks America is overwhelmingly the most evil country..... In fact, that's an absurd assertion to make, drawing from my initial comment. Good gosh

[homersapien 11,367]

17 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Huh??? What do you mean by "shootings are uniquely American?" How would they not be uniquely American? I mean hell, murder is illegal,  but it happens in America a lot. Would that mean murder is uniquely American also? 

Notwithstanding what's in bold, that in no way means one thinks America is overwhelmingly the most evil country..... In fact, that's an absurd assertion to make, drawing from my initial comment. Good gosh

I was referring specifically to mass school shootings, which seem to be a uniquely American problem.  

If one stipulates these shooting are caused by evil, then it follows America has a unique problem with evil.

Hint:  This is an abstract discussion.   I am not arguing the topic in generally.  My only argument is that given the stipulation this problem is caused by evil, the inference Texas Tiger made - that America has a unique problem with evil - is perfectly logical. 

You claimed TT's post was illogical.  It's not.  I think TT's intent was to point out the over-simplicity of the original premise (the problem is caused by evil).   He's not saying America necessarily does have a unique problem with evil.  He's pointing out the fallacy of the premise. 

[homersapien 11,367]

12 hours ago, Mikey said:

Nonsense. Switzerland, Norway and Finland all rate higher than the US on a per-capita basis.  And the below link examines only "advanced countries". Central and South America, Mexico, Several African nations and Pakistan all have many more shooting fatalities per capita than the United States. That info comes from your beloved source, CNN.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-

I was referring specifically to apolitical, senseless mass shootings. 

Sorry for the confusion.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

39 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I was referring specifically to mass school shootings, which seem to be a uniquely American problem.  

If one stipulates these shooting are caused by evil, then it follows America has a unique problem with evil.

Hint:  This is an abstract discussion.   I am not arguing the topic in generally.  My only argument is that given the stipulation this problem is caused by evil, the inference Texas Tiger made - that America has a unique problem with evil - is perfectly logical. 

You claimed TT's post was illogical.  It's not.  I think TT's intent was to point out the over-simplicity of the original premise (the problem is caused by evil).   He's not saying America necessarily does have a unique problem with evil.  He's pointing out the fallacy of the premise. 

Homer, he literally drew the inference that my assertion necessarily meant that I'd hold that America is "overwhelmingly the most evil country in the world." 

That a country has evil in it (whether it be school shootings, obesity, slavery, aids, etc.) in absolutely no form or fashion necessarily means it follows that said country is overwhelmingly more evil than the rest of the world. 

[homersapien 11,367]

48 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Homer, he literally drew the inference that my assertion necessarily meant that I'd hold that America is "overwhelmingly the most evil country in the world." 

That a country has evil in it (whether it be school shootings, obesity, slavery, aids, etc.) in absolutely no form or fashion necessarily means it follows that said country is overwhelmingly more evil than the rest of the world. 

And that's a fair conclusion based on the stipulation made.

I don't think it was meant as a literal, factual argument.  It was an abstract argument based on the claim that was made.    

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

And that's a fair conclusion based on the stipulation made.

I don't think it was meant as a literal, factual argument.  It was an abstract argument based on the claim that was made.    

The stipulation that it's hard to legislate evil? I disagree that his inference was a fair, or reasonable, one to draw.

Moving on. 

[AUFAN78 3,894]

Interesting............

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/02/hero_aaron_feis_the_disarmed_school_guard.html

[aubearcat 2,137]

Food for thought 

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2018/02/sorry_some_of_your_guns_have_g.html

[AUFAN78 3,894]

26 minutes ago, aubearcat said:

Food for thought 

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2018/02/sorry_some_of_your_guns_have_g.html

Man, that comment section. Classic.

[Mikey 16,579]

12 hours ago, homersapien said:

Seriously?  You really don't follow the logic? 

These shootings are caused by evil.  There shootings are a uniquely American.  America has a unique problem with evil. 

Seems pretty straightforward to me.  

It would be straightforward if that line was truthful, which of course it is not. Here's a link in which I count 21 school shootings that were not in America. We are not unique or alone in the school shooting business. https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime/timeline-worldwide-school-and-mass-shootings

Here's a sample from that page, in case yet another link won't work for the Left.

April 26, 2002 Erfurt, Germany

13 teachers, two students, and one policeman killed, ten wounded by Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school. Steinhaeuser then killed himself.

 

[homersapien 11,367]

25 minutes ago, Mikey said:

It would be straightforward if that line was truthful, which of course it is not. Here's a link in which I count 21 school shootings that were not in America. We are not unique or alone in the school shooting business. https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime/timeline-worldwide-school-and-mass-shootings

Here's a sample from that page, in case yet another link won't work for the Left.

April 26, 2002 Erfurt, Germany

13 teachers, two students, and one policeman killed, ten wounded by Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school. Steinhaeuser then killed himself.

 

   Do you know what "abstract" as in an abstract argument? 

My post concerns rhetoric and logic -not about whatever it is you are talking about.  

 

 

 

 

[Mikey 16,579]

5 minutes ago, homersapien said:

   Do you know what "abstract" as in an abstract argument? 

My post concerns rhetoric and logic -not about whatever it is you are talking about.  

 

 

 

 

Hogwash. Your post claims that school shootings are unique to America. Clearly, your are wrong about that. "Unique" was your word, own it like an adult should.

[homersapien 11,367]

On 2/19/2018 at 10:35 PM, Mikey said:

Hogwash. Your post claims that school shootings are unique to America. Clearly, your are wrong about that. "Unique" was your word, own it like an adult should.

Go back and read the ******* posts.  

It's people like you that get me labeled as 'arrogant'.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

Good read here for those in the middle.  (Some choice language)

https://agingmillennialengineer.com/2018/02/15/****-you-i-like-guns-2/

[TitanTiger 20,472]

Let's back up a second.  First, just because it's the 'smack' forum doesn't mean it's a free for all.

Second, folks are getting bogged down in overly narrow nitpicking over word choice and missing the forest for the trees.

--------------

Ok, school shootings aren't literally something that only happens in America.

School shooting and mass shootings in general are something that happens in America with multiple times more frequency and are multiple times more deadly in terms of the number of people killed, if you're comparing us to other industrialized, "First World" countries.  It's not apples to apples to say "But Honduras and Nicaragua..."  So, comparing us to places like Britain, Germany, France, Japan, Australia, Canada, etc., we are far worse off in terms of how often this sort of thing occurs and the number of people killed (and wounded) in each event.  This is undeniable not just in terms of raw numbers, but when measuring per capita.

So the primary question becomes:  "Why?"  What about the United States, makes us so different from our nearest counterparts around the world?  Are we so different culturally that we believe we have nothing to learn or glean from the experiences and efforts in other countries like us to significantly lessen the occurrence of events like this?

[japantiger 4,051]

On 2/19/2018 at 7:36 AM, McLoofus said:

The irony and accompanying lack of self-awareness with a few around here is consistent, if nothing else. 

So, responding to the proposals just too much for you, huh? 

I would like to understand one other thing though...why does this one particular category of guns that account for .007% of all homicides drive you to such distraction....According to that conservative rag Mother Jones, 27% of mass shootings are conducted with some sort of long gun.   Why not go after shotguns or handguns or even knives or even hammers (they kill more than long guns)....wouldn't that save more lives?  or do you just dislike all guns?  or only scary looking guns?  or are all guns, scary looking?   

[homersapien 11,367]

10 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

No, its people using facts that get you labeled as crazy.

That's ironic, coming from the guy who called me a liar but couldn't produce the lie.