Is it time for a serious conversation about Gun Control?

[TexasTiger 12,956]

On 2/15/2018 at 8:22 AM, NolaAuTiger said:

Very sad. Hard to legislate evil

So you think USA is overwhelmingly the most evil country in the world?

[DKW 86 7,429]

3 hours ago, RunInRed said:

Counterpoint ...

But talking about one-sided, framing the debate as “taking away all guns” is not productive to serious dialogue either.

The drug analogy works like this: Criminals will just start selling illegal guns out of the back of cars. Banning drugs has not worked. Banning Alcohol didnt work. We need a full view assault on guns. Nothing onesided is going to end this. 

[DKW 86 7,429]

I stand amazed at the tone deafness on the forum. I am, saying let do the gun laws, BUT ALSO WORK ON ALL ASPECTS.

I never said let's not do background checks, restrictions on certain models and classes. I am saying let's do that AND MORE.

Lets not do "just" that. The debate needs to be far wider...

[AUFAN78 3,911]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

I stand amazed at the tone deafness on the forum. I am, saying let do the gun laws, BUT ALSO WORK ON ALL ASPECTS.

I never said let's not do background checks, restrictions on certain models and classes. I am saying let's do that AND MORE.

Lets not do "just" that. The debate needs to be far wider...

I am just shocked you are amazed. Where you been?

[homersapien 11,392]

Boy.  We have some terrible communicators on this forum.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

So you think USA is overwhelmingly the most evil country in the world?

How in the world do you infer that from what I said?

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

19 hours ago, homersapien said:

I don't feel like dissecting that but let me clarify my position:

First I am stipulating that mass marketing (easy access) of relatively inexpensive assault rifles is one of the key elements in the problem of mass shootings.

One possible solution would be to tax them to reduce consumption much like cigarettes are taxed to reduce consumption.   I threw out 500% as an example based only on my guess of the amount of such a tax to be effective.  Maybe that's high, maybe it's low. 

Frankly I threw the idea of taxing them in a brainstorming mood.  But maybe, just maybe if you had to shell out say, $5,000 (or more) for an AR-15, maybe you'd have fewer teenagers buying them.

Of course there are many other things that could and should be done - like increasing purchase restrictions.  I just threw this out as one option. 

Understood. I should've eased up on the rhetoric. It's certainly not an implausible contention! 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

20 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

It's laughable to call this an immediate blame game when this has become a relatively common occurrence in our society.  It's not immediate.  It's been building for almost 20 years.  The question is, how many times does the same thing have to happen before an actual conversation takes place?  How many more kids need to die?

I think Salty is referring more of the immediacy to blame republicans, when in reality neither parties have passed gun reform laws when they were capable of doing so (if that makes sense). The government would be just as guilty at the state level also in that sense. Thus, if one party is guilty then both are collectively. Unfortunately, I don't think gun regulation possesses the solution. Not to say that gun regs shouldn't be part of the solution, but we need to look intently at other things as well. I really like the idea of reforming school security just like we did airports after 9/11. I just wish both parties could come together and make this problem of gun violence a forefront priority - guns, schools, mental health, state and federal enforcement agencies, efficiency of protocols, social media monitoring, etc. 

 

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

6 hours ago, RunInRed said:

Counterpoint ...

But talking about one-sided, framing the debate as “taking away all guns” is not productive to serious dialogue either.

I agree but would also add having a sensible dialogue about mass killing of anyone. The "evil" NRA kills zero people and receives zero $ from taxpayers. Planned Parenthood kills 887 babies a day and gets over $500M from taxpayers each year.

[TexasTiger 12,956]

47 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

How in the world do you infer that from what I said?

Applying simple logic.

[Grumps 3,704]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

And yet, we seem to be the only country where this happens on a regular basis.  Do Americans have a unique problem with "human nature"?  I doubt it.

Obviously, there is WAY more to the issue than what I about to type, but I DO think that American parents are unique in raising the most selfish and immature teenagers on the planet. These teenagers are more prone to giving in to their "human nature" than are other teenagers.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

48 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Applying simple logic.

So let me make sure I'm following you... 

Because one thinks it is hard to legislate evil, one also probably holds that the US is overwhelmingly the most evil country in the world?

[AUFAN78 3,911]

10 ways schools, parents and communities can prevent school shootings now

https://theconversation.com/10-ways-schools-parents-and-communities-can-prevent-school-shootings-now-91960

[japantiger 4,051]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:11 AM, McLoofus said:

You're being dramatic. Especially given that the whole #MAGA platform that gives you and several others around here such a hard-on is primarily defined by a lack of humanity and empathy. 

If you're going to go around touting the virtues of that hate mongering jackass, you really need to toughen up a little. 

Posts like this are why we can't have nice things...why didn't you just call him and everyone else who disagrees with you a deplorable for shorthand.  The title of this thread is "Is it time for a serious conversation...."....seems like you think "it's not time...."

A solution needs to address 3 things:

1. Safety at the point of attack - fortifying schools such that even the most determined evil-doer will be discouraged from trying or exposed and eliminated outside the school
2. Mental health - address mental health issues in the same manner we do any other chronic health issue like diabetes, high blood pressure, rheumetoid arthritis, etc.
3. Gun safety - how to strike the balance between the 2nd amendment protections and the belief that banning assault weapons will solve the problem

In all of the above, the question is what is Washington's role if any vs the role of Governors, mayors, etc. who ultimately are the ones that have to take action.

As for #1, in the interest of speed and ultimate effectiveness, this should be something that the President discusses in a governors conference in the next 30 days...the governors need to make their asks of the Fed; but the decisions on what/how/how much should be left to the local administrators as the needs of Travis County, TX are pretty different from those of a school in NYC....I would propose a very simple initial strategy...armed guards....patrols of the grounds just like those methods used in the schools my kids went to overseas in some of those countries we won't refer to as shitholes.   Also, train willing teachers....I would look for a minimum of 10% armed teachers to provide inner security if the outer perimeter is breached.   I would also initiate a formal sea-something/say-something process in each location that the guards/admin work with law enforcement on....someone from the school needs to hold local law enforcement and the FBI accountable.  It should be easy to construct an ACLU approved process that allows for investigation and still protect someone's rights...and who knows, maybe someone is disturbed and by findout out early, they actually get help.

#2 - I would recommend a national "moon-shot" program on this with school's the main focus.  I think the current effort on opioids is spot on; this is long overdue.  Bipolar, depression, various incarnations of schizophrenia, etc., can all be diagnosed and treated....most sufferers can lead productive lives being treated just like someone with another chronic illness.   We need to de-stigmatize all this and get it out in the open and require health plans to cover like anything else (though this is getting better).   Kids need to be encouraged to get help and parents need to engage and ensure treatment happens.  With the right meds and support, a lot of this can be dealt with thru the healthcare system and those that are likely to cause mayhem, can be identified sooner and dealt with....most do not turn into schools shooters....the needle in the haystack actually does this....in the mean time, we would be helping 15 % of our population live healthy and productive lives.

#3 - three phases - 1st, enforce the gun laws we have...send people to jail for using a gun in a crime....2nd, a simple licensing process for youth is needed...but at the state level....in NY something more stringent may be required; in Montana, or other rural areas, less stringent (like drivers licenses in rural America where you can drive younger than 16), can't own a hunting rifle until 18, etc...and can hunt with a rifle only after passing a background check, health check and gun safety training and licensing....this will be costly as it will require a new local bureaucracy to conduct licensing...is it worth it? probably....3rd....not sure I know what #3 is that would be effective....requests to ban AR's are about as serious as treating the plague with an enema....it will neither help nor hurt.   But given that the AR platform is now one of the most popular hunting rifles used  (I use a .223 and a .338 depending on size of game), it seem unlikely anything here will prevail.  I'd also note my AR hasn't assaulted anyone nor have 9.9m of the other estimated 10m out there.

Here's my POV....shoot at it (so to speak).

 

[AUFAN78 3,911]

https://www.ocregister.com/2017/06/30/teenagers-anxiety-and-depression-on-the-rise/

[japantiger 4,051]

17 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

https://www.ocregister.com/2017/06/30/teenagers-anxiety-and-depression-on-the-rise/

Good article.  I wonder how much of this is either they are actually suffering from more or it's just focused on and diagnosed more.  I also put the blame for their lack of family engagement on the head of the household....not the kids.  Don't give them phones and keep them off social media...that is called parenting....we did it....no biggie.   they got phones when they demonstrated sufficient responsibility and accountability  Now, there is one part of this article that is laughable..."Teens also have reason to feel enormous anxiety about the future of the planet. While political unrest, to one degree or another, has always existed, the kind of hopelessness that young people experience nowadays is unprecedented."   this kind of horse***t is part of the problem...their parents are letting this horsemanure seep into their heads instead of the kids worrying about pleasing their parents  and being productive God-fearing members of society.  

[japantiger 4,051]

1 hour ago, AUFAN78 said:

10 ways schools, parents and communities can prevent school shootings now

https://theconversation.com/10-ways-schools-parents-and-communities-can-prevent-school-shootings-now-91960

All very common sense .... requires parents engagement.

[SaltyTiger 7,816]

20 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

Go back a page or two.  I listed out some starting points in an answer to Proud.

And no, its not immediate.  If we don't talk about this now, WHEN do we talk about it?

I have no problem talking about it. I have a big big problem with some moron blaming these events on a political party or any president or anyone that voted for that president. 

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

36 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

I have no problem talking about it. I have a big big problem with some moron blaming these events on a political party or any president or anyone that voted for that president. 

Preach it brother.

[TexasTiger 12,956]

5 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

So let me make sure I'm following you... 

Because one thinks it is hard to legislate evil, one also probably holds that the US is overwhelmingly the most evil country in the world?

You think the problem is evil. The problem is almost exclusively American. Thus, you must think we have an unmatched level of evil in this country.

[homersapien 11,392]

2 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

I have no problem talking about it. I have a big big problem with some moron blaming these events on a political party or any president or anyone that voted for that president. 

Good grief.  What a BS post.   

Acknowledging generally recognized political facts about who is the most anti-regulation about guns is not the same as "blaming them". 

Neither party has done much, but you certainly can't expect leadership on gun regulations from Republicans.  Follow the money.

 

[Mikey 16,631]

13 hours ago, homersapien said:

And yet, we seem to be the only country where this happens on a regular basis. Do Americans have a unique problem with "human nature"?  I doubt it.

Nonsense. Switzerland, Norway and Finland all rate higher than the US on a per-capita basis.  And the below link examines only "advanced countries". Central and South America, Mexico, Several African nations and Pakistan all have many more shooting fatalities per capita than the United States. That info comes from your beloved source, CNN.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-

[Mikey 16,631]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

You think the problem is evil. The problem is almost exclusively American. Thus, you must think we have an unmatched level of evil in this country.

Where do you lefties grub up such BS? Look one post up.

[TexasTiger 12,956]

On 2/18/2018 at 10:25 PM, Mikey said:

Look one post up.

Link doesn't work.

[McLoofus 35,182]

22 hours ago, Mikey said:

Apropos of nothing: I received a semi-automatic rifle for my 12th birthday.  It held 12 rounds of 22 cal. ammo. That was 1954, so semi-autos are nothing new. I never shot anybody with it but I could have done a bunch of damage at school had I, as a "troubled youth" chosen to do so. Most of my "troubled" friends had one too. None of us shot up a school. Rabbits are another story. JOIN THE RABBITS, BAN RIFLES!

Something in society has changed, my best guess is the internet and social media has changed the way kids with problems act and think but I can't prove that. Then there are the non-kid shootings by religious and political fanatics. Those have been with society forever, but they used to favor bombs over guns and some still do.

Unless something can be done about human nature, greater or lesser degrees of this sort of thing will be with us until Mars attacks. The Martians will stop this mess.

In 1954, I bet you never rode in a car seat and very few people, if any, wore seatbelts. Certainly nobody wore a helmet on a bicycle, and football coaches thought drinking water during practice in 100 degree heat was a sign of weakness. 

As discussed earlier, Charles Whitman shot 17 people in 1966. It took him 96 minutes. I wonder why he didn't use a more efficient weapon? I mean, everybody had one even 12 years earlier than that, right? 

Yes, shootings are going to happen. We're not even trying to limit them, though. Bizarre.