The Law and Grace Discussion

[aubfaninga 16]

Still not sure why anyone would want to follow the ministry of death and condemnation and not life.

The "ministry of death" was the Old Covenant (not his 10 commandments).

The Old was ministered and administrated by the Levitical priests. ( men who carried their own sin)

The New Covenant is ministered and mediated by the sinless Jesus.

"I do not condemn you.... now Sin no more"

[Weegle777 78]

Still not sure why anyone would want to follow the ministry of death and condemnation and not life.

The "ministry of death" was the Old Covenant (not his 10 commandments).

The Old was ministered and administrated by the Levitical priests. ( men who carried their own sin)

The New Covenant is ministered and mediated by the sinless Jesus.

"I do not condemn you.... now Sin no more"

I beg to differ, so does the bible.

2 Corinthians 3:7-10

7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.

[aubfaninga 16]

Still not sure why anyone would want to follow the ministry of death and condemnation and not life.

The "ministry of death" was the Old Covenant (not his 10 commandments).

The Old was ministered and administrated by the Levitical priests. ( men who carried their own sin)

The New Covenant is ministered and mediated by the sinless Jesus.

"I do not condemn you.... now Sin no more"

I beg to differ, so does the bible.

2 Corinthians 3:7-10

7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.

Give me a few hours (getting estimate for my car) and I will once again show the power of a thing called "CONTEXT" and totality of scripture.

Moses gave the 10 commandments on stone written by the finger of GOD.

The Holy Spirit writes GODS Law on our hearts.

Everyone of the 10 commandments were given to preserve life. How anyone could read "thou shall not murder" as the "ministry of death" baffles me.

[Weegle777 78]

You will have to take that up with the author. The Apostle Paul.

[aubfaninga 16]

You will have to take that up with the author. The Apostle Paul.

The author of my Faith is Jesus. Not Paul. Paul can't save you and Paul cannot contradict Jesus or scripture or else he is a false teacher. Thats biblical understanding 101.

Do you ever quote outside of scripture? Can you prove your point outside of Pauls letters? 95% of scripture you have provided in this long thread only comes from one source... Pauls letters!

Care to quote me what Peter had to say about some who only use and twist Pauls letters?

[Weegle777 78]

So you are discrediting the Apostle Paul?

[aubfaninga 16]

So you are discrediting the Apostle Paul?

Discrediting Paul as the Christ and judge of mankind? ABSOLUTELY!!!

The best way to discredit Paul as an apostle is to make his words oppose Moses, the prophets, and/or Jesus himself. If one makes Paul contradict scripture is false and the truth is not in him. His words! This is also how Acts records the Bereans and how they tested Paul against the scriptures to see if he was speaking in line with GODS Holy Spirit. There was no New Testament written during the time of Acts so we know the Bereans were testing Paul by the Old Testament scriptures. Its all they had.

I am the one trying to keep Pauls teaching in line with scripture. "Scripture inteprets scripture"!!!

[Weegle777 78]

Good grief, no one set Paul up to be greater than Christ. Where do you come up with this madness?

[aubfaninga 16]

Good grief, no one set Paul up to be greater than Christ. Where do you come up with this madness?

Where did you come up with the idea that I was trying to discredit Paul all while I quote Paul in my defense of my. Faith? "Good grief"

[WarTim 3,456]

Amazing to see an atheist argue Faith. Couldn't be more wrong if we had a weekly practice overview update on AU spring practice from Harvey updyke. Same total and complete lack of knowledge-same amount of hate.......

[Weegle777 78]

You will have to take that up with the author. The Apostle Paul.

The author of my Faith is Jesus. Not Paul. Paul can't save you and Paul cannot contradict Jesus or scripture or else he is a false teacher. Thats biblical understanding 101.

Do you ever quote outside of scripture? Can you prove your point outside of Pauls letters? 95% of scripture you have provided in this long thread only comes from one source... Pauls letters!

Care to quote me what Peter had to say about some who only use and twist Pauls letters?

What do you mean by "quote outside of scripture."?

And the reason that I quote Paul is because I am under the New Covenant. The old covenant was not meant for me and I have never been under it.

[aubfaninga 16]

Sorry for that. I was at the body shop on my phone.

I meant do you ever quote anything outside of Paul?

You do understand that you are not in covenant with Paul right? The New Covenant is with the GOD of Israel and the mediator of this covenant is Jesus, not Paul or the levites.

What is funny is Paul always quoted from the Old Testament and 60% of his subject matter is from Psalms, proverbs, or the prophets. The rest is from Moses' writings. All while you claim the Old Testament is done away with.

I challenge you to find how many chapters, from Pauls writings, where he does not use Old Testament scripture to teach. Paul was a pharisee who trained in one of the most prestigious schools of his day. He knew Old Testament scripture from memory and used it. He Left Judaism and the oral laws of the rabbis for the true and only Teacher of GODS will, Yeshua!

Your gospel sounds like gentiles were teaching Jews about GOD when the absolute fact is Jesus, every saint, and everyone of the apostles were Judean. Raised in the Hebrew scriptures from birth.

[aubfaninga 16]

Amazing to see an atheist argue Faith. Couldn't be more wrong if we had a weekly practice overview update on AU spring practice from Harvey updyke. Same total and complete lack of knowledge-same amount of hate.......

an atheist???

[aubfaninga 16]

And the reason that I quote Paul is because I am under the New Covenant. The old covenant was not meant for me and I have never been under it.

Paul uses over 183 Old Testament passages either in quotes or paraphrases. And this figure doesn't include his additional dozens of references to people, places and events in the Old Testament.

Curiously, two of the books that misguided theologians quote from the most in arguing that Paul dismissed the Old Testament are those with the highest number of quotes from it: Romans (with quotes or paraphrases of 84 Old Testament passages) and Hebrews (which many scholars believe was written by Paul, with 83).

Paul's other books, with the number of references to Old Testament passages, are as follows: 1 Corinthians (26); 2 Corinthians (18); Galatians (14); Ephesians (12); Philippians (6); Colossians (3); 1 Thessalonians (1); 2 Thessalonians (7); 1 Timothy (4) and 2 Timothy (9).

Only Paul's two shortest epistles, Titus and Philemon, contain no quotes from the Old Testament.

It's obvious from these figures that Paul used the Hebrew Scriptures to support his teaching. In fact, he constantly used the Old Testament as the authority for his teaching!

What did Paul expressly say about those same Scriptures?

In 2 Timothy:3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

he writes: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God [literally 'God-breathed'], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." The "Scripture" here, known to Timothy since childhood (verse 15), could only have been the Old Testament.

In Romans:3:2 "Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God., referring to the Old Testament, Paul says that the Jewish people "have been entrusted with the very words of God" .

Referring to various incidents recorded in the Old Testament, he tells us in 1 Corinthians:10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. that "all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

In Hebrews:3:7 "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, he speaks of the Holy Spirit directly inspiring the words of the Old Testament.

In Hebrews:4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart., referring to the Old Testament, he writes: "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Do these passages sound like the statements of a man who taught that the Old Testament was obsolete or no longer necessary? The answer is obvious!

[aubfaninga 16]

Weegle I want to make sure I understand where you are coming from. I believe you have stated that a Christian cannot ever lose their salvation. If that is so then essentially once I accept Christ and enter into his kingdom then from there on, regardless of what I do, I will not lose my salvation. I just can't go along with that idea. I understand you cannot earn it but if I should give in to temptation, and then don't turn around from that sin, I am in a lost condition. God has not condemned me. I have condemned myself. I have separated myself from him and his blood cannot cleanse me of a sin I will not repent of.

Tigger, I would like to ask that when you can find the time please review this video. You do not have to agree with everything he says but hopefully you can see his heartfelt concern over a teaching that is spreading like a wildfire.

I also ask that you review, meditate, and pray over the letter written by Jude to the church concerning the last days. He had concerns over this false teaching as well.

Thanks

Warning of the "Hyper Grace" movement

[aubfaninga 16]

Weegle, If this does not open your eyes you just refuse to see.

Jeremiah 5

"Hear this message,

you foolish people who have no sense.

You have eyes, but you don’t see!

You have ears, but you dont listen!

Surely you are afraid of me.;

This message is from the Lord.

You should shake with fear in front of me.

I am the one who made the sandy shores to hold back the sea.

I made it that way to keep the water in its place forever.

The waves may pound the beach, but they will not destroy it.

The waves may roar as they come in, but they cannot go beyond the beach."

Matthew 8

"Jesus answered, Why are you afraid? You dont have enough faith. Then he stood up and gave a command to the wind and the water. The wind stopped, and the lake became very calm.

The men were amazed. They said, What kind of man is this? Even the wind and the water obey him!" (please read Jeremiah above again)

Exodus 14

"Moses raised his hand over the Red Sea, and {JESUS} the Lord caused a strong wind to blow from the east. The wind blew all night long. The sea split, and the wind made the ground dry."

Mark 8

"Do you still not see or understand? Are you not able to understand? Do you have eyes that cant see? Do you have ears that cant hear? Remember what I did before, when we did not have enough bread? I divided five loaves of bread for 5000 people. Remember how many baskets you filled with pieces of food that were not eaten?"

Ezekiel 12

"Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, Son of man, you live among people who refuse to obey me. They have eyes to see what I have done for them, but they dont see those things. They have ears to hear what I told them to do, but they dont hear my commands, because they are a rebellious people."

Mark 4

And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Matthew 11

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, and saying...

We played the flute for you,

And you did not dance;

We mourned to you,

And you did not lament.

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He has a demon. The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! But wisdom is justified by her children.

Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:"

PAUL AND THE 10 COMMANDMENTS!!! Did Paul teach and use the 10 commandments?

Commandment 1: "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other gods before Me."

Paul said, "God, who made the world and everything in it...they should seek the Lord" (Acts 17:24,27). Paul also said, "I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law" (Acts 24:14). "And what agreement has the temple of God have with idols?" (II Cor 6:16). "you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (I The 1:9). "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 The 2:3-4).

Commandment 2: "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."

"we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols" (Acts 15:20). "Now while Paul waited for them in Athens, his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols...Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said...'God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed anything'" (Acts 17:16,22,24-25). "Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four footed animals and creeping things" (Rom 1:22-23). "But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is...an idolater" (I Cor 5:11). "Neither... idolators...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:9-10). "And do not become idolaters as were some of them...Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry" (I Cor 10:7,14). "And what agreement has the temple of God have with idols?" (II Cor 6:16). "Now the works of the flesh are evident...idolatry" (Gal 5:19,20). "For this you know that no...idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" (Eph 5:5). "Therefore put to death...covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5). "you turned to God from idols" (I The 1:9).

Commandment 3: " You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain."

"they are all under sin...Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness" (Rom 3:9,14). "Let all...evil speaking be put away from you" (Eph 4:31). "But now you yourselves are to put off all these:...blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth" (Col 3:8). "they may learn not to blaspheme" (I Tim 1:20). But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be...blasphemers" (II Tim 3:1,2).

Commandment 4: "Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day."

"Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures...And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks" (Acts 17:2;18:4 see also 13:14,27,42,44). "let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give to him who has need" (Eph 4:28) and "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: 'If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat'" (II Thes 3:10); (recall that the requirement to work is also part of the Sabbath command, thus even that portion of the commandment is repeated in the New Testament.) "And to whom did He swear they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?" (Heb 3:18). "For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: 'And God rested on the seventh day from all His works'" (Heb 4:4). "There remains therefore a rest (literally sabbatismos, 'Sabbath rest') for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Heb 4:9-10).

Commandment 5: "Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you."

"being filled with all unrighteousness...disobediant to parents" (Rom 1:29,30). "Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 'Honor your father and mother', which is the first commandment with promise: that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth" (Eph 6:1-3). "the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience" (Col 3:6). "Children obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord" (Col 3:20). "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be...disobediant to parents" (II Tim 3:1,2).

Commandment 6: "You shall not murder"

"being filled with all unrighteousness...murder" (Rom 1:29). "You shall not murder" (Rom 13:9). "Now the works of the flesh are evident...murders" (Gal 5:19,21). "the lawless and insubordinate...murders...manslayers" (I Tim 1:9).

Commandment 7: "You shall not commit adultery"

"being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality" (Rom 1:29). "So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress" (Rom 7:3). "You shall not commit adultery" (Rom 13:9). "But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral" (I Cor 5:11). "Neither... adulterers, nor homosexuals...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:9-10)."Nor let us commit sexual immorality as some of them did" (I Cor 10:8). "Now the works of the flesh are evident...adultery, fornication" (Gal 5:19). "For this you know that no fornicator...has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" (Eph 5:5). "the lawless and insubordinate...fornicators...sodomites" (I Tim 1:9,10). "fornicators and adulterers God will judge" (Heb 13:4).

Commandment 8: "You shall not steal"

"You shall not steal" (Rom 13:9). "nor thieves...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:10). "I have been...in perils of robbers" (II Cor 11:25-26). "Let him who stole, steal no longer" (Eph 4:28).

Commandment 9: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"

"You shall not bear false witness" (Rom 13:9). "Therefore, putting away lying" (Eph 4:25). "Do not lie to one another" (Col 3:9). "the lawless and insubordinate...liars...perjurers" (I Tim 1:9,10). "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy" (I Tim 4:1-2). "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be...slanderers" (II Tim 3:1,3). "God, who cannot lie" (Ti 1:2). "it is impossible for God to lie" (Heb 6:18).

Commandment 10: "You shall not covet your neighbors wife; and you shall not desire your neighbors house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbors"

"being filled with all unrighteousness...covetousness" (Rom 1:29)."You shall not covet" (Rom 7:7). "You shall not covet" (Rom 13:9). "But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is...covetous" (I Cor 5:11). "nor covetous...will inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor 6:10). "we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted" (I Cor 10:6). "you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal 5:16). "For this you know that no fornicator...nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" (Eph 5:5). "Therefore put to death...covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col 3:5). "For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness" (I The 2:5). "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have" (Heb 13:5).

[DKW 86 7,426]

[Weegle777 78]

And the reason that I quote Paul is because I am under the New Covenant. The old covenant was not meant for me and I have never been under it.

Paul uses over 183 Old Testament passages either in quotes or paraphrases. And this figure doesn't include his additional dozens of references to people, places and events in the Old Testament.

Curiously, two of the books that misguided theologians quote from the most in arguing that Paul dismissed the Old Testament are those with the highest number of quotes from it: Romans (with quotes or paraphrases of 84 Old Testament passages) and Hebrews (which many scholars believe was written by Paul, with 83).

Paul's other books, with the number of references to Old Testament passages, are as follows: 1 Corinthians (26); 2 Corinthians (18); Galatians (14); Ephesians (12); Philippians (6); Colossians (3); 1 Thessalonians (1); 2 Thessalonians (7); 1 Timothy (4) and 2 Timothy (9).

Only Paul's two shortest epistles, Titus and Philemon, contain no quotes from the Old Testament.

It's obvious from these figures that Paul used the Hebrew Scriptures to support his teaching. In fact, he constantly used the Old Testament as the authority for his teaching!

What did Paul expressly say about those same Scriptures?

In 2 Timothy:3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

he writes: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God [literally 'God-breathed'], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." The "Scripture" here, known to Timothy since childhood (verse 15), could only have been the Old Testament.

In Romans:3:2 "Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God., referring to the Old Testament, Paul says that the Jewish people "have been entrusted with the very words of God" .

Referring to various incidents recorded in the Old Testament, he tells us in 1 Corinthians:10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. that "all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

In Hebrews:3:7 "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, he speaks of the Holy Spirit directly inspiring the words of the Old Testament.

In Hebrews:4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart., referring to the Old Testament, he writes: "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Do these passages sound like the statements of a man who taught that the Old Testament was obsolete or no longer necessary? The answer is obvious!

Hebrews 8:13New King James Version (NKJV)

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

[aubfaninga 16]

If you feel that discussing scripture is like beating a dead horse then feel free to not comment but I find it strange that you grow tired of the Word of God.

Can you add something to the debate?

DKW, Are You are going on record as well that Paul taught against the ten commandments? Do you stand with Weegle that the ten commandments have been done away with?

[aubfaninga 16]

Still not sure why anyone would want to follow the ministry of death and condemnation and not life.

The "HYPER GRACE" argument goes something like this: In 2 Corinthians 3:7, Paul speaks about "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones." He states that this ministry of death "was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance." But, Paul continues, this "glory was passing away."

The shining of Moses' face refers to Exodus 34, which describes Moses coming down from the mountain the second time with the Ten Commandments, and because of his close contact with GOD there, his face shone. From this, HG teachers conclude that the ministry of death is the Ten Commandments, which are "passing away." Notice only Moses face glowed while everyone else saw the tablets. Moses glory and minisry was fading much like John the Baptist testified. "I must decrease and he (Jesus) must increase)

To emphasize this further, Paul repeats that this ministry of death is passing away in verses 11 and 13. This reasoning then leads HG teachers to claim that the Ten Commandments and the whole Old Testament are now obsolete!

What is Paul talking about in these verses? What is this ministry of death? What is it that is passing away? Could the law of God—which Paul declares to be "spiritual" (Romans 7:14) and "holy, just and good" (verse 12)—have passed away and become obsolete? If he is not saying this, why does he mention Moses receiving the Ten Commandments and his face shining? What do these scriptures REALLY mean?

A Contrast in Covenants

As in all cases where scriptures are difficult to understand, we must read them in context. At the beginning of chapter 3, Paul praises the Corinthians for the joy, satisfaction and affection he felt in seeing the growth and accomplishments of this congregation of the church of God.

"Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men." 2 Corinthians 3

Paul boasts that the church at Corinth displayed such a fine example that their behavior worked like a letter of commendation for him, the apostle who started the congregation and served it.

In verse 3, Paul uses this metaphor of a letter of commendation to lead into a discussion comparing the Old and New Covenants. "You are manifestly an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living GOD, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart." When God made the Old Covenant with ancient Israel, Moses wrote the commandments, statutes and judgments that God had given to him in a book with "ink" (Exodus 24:4). God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger on two tablets of stone (Exodus 31-32). However, Paul points out, under the New Covenant, God has given us His Spirit, enabling us to keep His laws in their spiritual intent. He is now writing His Ten Commandments on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10)!

In verses 4-5, Paul gives all the credit to God and Christ for the knowledge that he and other ministers transmitted to the Corinthians. In verse 6, he returns to the two covenants, declaring that he and his colleagues were ministers of the New Covenant: "[God] also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit." Under the Old Covenant, God never gave the people the Holy Spirit to keep his ways. He required them to keep the law only in the "letter" and not in its spiritual intent and purpose as Jesus later magnified it.

For example, the 6th Commandment forbids murder. As long as one does not actually take someone's life, he has kept the commandment in the letter. However, Jesus taught that anyone who is angry with his brother without a cause or even insults someone else is in danger of breaking this law. Because we have God's Spirit under the New Covenant, we can keep His laws not only in the letter but also in their spiritual intent.

The apostle then writes, "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life". This statement is a key to understanding the rest of the chapter. "The letter kills" means that, in agreeing to the terms of the Old Covenant and accepting God's law, the carnal nation of Israel fell under the condemnation of the law because the people could not keep it. When law is broken, a penalty results, and the penalty for breaking God's law is death. Thus, without the ability to keep it properly, the Israelites incurred the death penalty.

Paul explains this as it occurred to him personally in Romans 7:9-11.

"I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me."

A Better Covenant

The Old Covenant had a fault: The people under it were unable or unwilling to obey God's law. The author of Hebrews mentions this in his discussion of the New Covenant's superiority over the Old:

"For if that first [Old] covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second [New Covenant]. Because finding fault with them [the Israelites], He says: "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Hebrews 8:7-8

Since the Spirit of God was not generally available under the Old Covenant, the carnal Israelites could not obey the law even in the letter. They broke the covenant that they had made with God, so a New Covenant was necessary.

Under the New Covenant, God gives us His Holy Spirit upon repentance and baptism. This enables us to keep God's law even in its spiritual intent. Furthermore, under the New Covenant, God provides a means for repentant sinners to receive pardon for their sins and have Christ's righteousness imputed to them. These people are no longer under the condemnation of the law, and the way is open for them to inherit eternal life. This is what Paul means when He says, "the Spirit gives life" 2 Corithians 3:6.

We now have the background to understand that when Paul speaks of "the ministry of death" (verse 7), he refers to the administration of the Old Covenant. The Levitical preisthood, a carnal priesthood based on physical descent from Levi, administered the Old Covenant. This covenant provided no promise of eternal life and no means for sinners to receive forgveness because "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4). Therefore, the people lived and died under the condemnation of the law, and "the wages of sin is death"(Romans 6:23).

Another reason why Paul refers to the Old Covenant as "the ministry of death" is that God required the Levitical priesthood to execute those who transgressed certain laws. God's law mandates the death penalty for certain sins like murder and dishonoring parents, Sabbath-breaking, and certain sexual sins. The priests were responsible to enforce the death penalty by actually putting such transgressors to death in the proscribed manner. In this sense, the Old Covenant ministry was indeed a "ministry of death."

"Engraved on Stones"

However, why did Paul say that the "ministry of death," the administration of the Old Covenant, was "written and engraved on stones"? Was it not the Ten Commandments that God wrote on two stone tablets? Even though the Ten Commandments were not the covenant itself (a covenant is simply an agreement between two parties), they were the terms of the covenant. Because the Ten Commandments constituted the part of the agreement between God and Israel that the Israelites agreed to keep, the Old Covenant became synonymous with the Ten Commandments. In Deuteronomy 4:13 Moses writes, "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tables of stone."

To put it another way, "keeping the Old Covenant" was the same as "keeping the Ten Commandments."

A paraphrase of the first eleven words of 2 Corinthians 3:7 helps to clarify what Paul means: "But if the administration of the Old Covenant, [the terms of which were] written and engraved on stones. . . ." The Ten Commandments undergirded all the laws that God gave to Israel—laws that the Israelites could not keep. The responsibility to teach these laws to Israel and enforce penalties for disobedience, including the death penalty, fell to the priests.

Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (Hebrews 7:11)

When Moses went up Mount Sinai the second time to receive the Ten Commandments, he wrote God's statutes and judgments in a book, and God wrote the Ten Commandments on two tables of stone. This, in essence, finalized the "contract" that God made with Israel.

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." (Exodus 34)

Verses 29-35 then describe how Moses face shone when he delivered the Ten Commandments and the book of the law to Israel.

So what is passing away? Hebrews 8:13 provides the answer: "In that He says, ‘A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." The Old Covenant and the Old Covenant ministry, the Levitical priesthood, are passing away, not the Ten Commandments!

The Glory of the Covenants

The apostle goes on to say that this "ministry of death" was glorious as indicated by Moses' face shining when He delivered the covenant to the Israelites. If this ministry of death was glorious, he reasons, how much more glorious must the New Covenant ministry, "the ministry of the Spirit," be?

"For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious." 2 Corinthians 3:9-11

In this same chapter, Paul explains that the veil Moses wore to hide his shining face symbolizes Israel's' failure to understand the truths of the New Covenant.

"But their minds were hardened. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 2 Corinthians 3:14-15

As most of us have experienced, the knowledge of God's truth has to be miraculously revealed to an individual through the calling of God. Understanding opens to us like the lifting of a veil that had been covering our eyes. "Nevertheless, when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away" (verse 16).

Paul ends his discussion by showing what marvelous blessings God has bestowed upon us in allowing us to enter the New Covenant:

"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord" (verse 18).

We who have been called and ordained of God to understand His marvelous truths are now having God's Ten Commandments written on our hearts by His Spirit dwelling within us (Hebrews 8:10). We now have no hindrance to learning and applying the Word of God in our lives, which sanctifies and cleanses us Ephesians 5:26. Through this process, we are being transformed into the glorious image of our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ, the One who kept God's Ten Commandments perfectly.

What a blessing and privilege to be participants in the New Covenant!

[Weegle777 78]

I agree with the above. It explains what I have been saying all along. I think where you are not getting what I am saying is that, as I have stated many times, God's law is perfect, and the reason that Jesus came is because the old covenant and its requirements are impossible for the Jews to fulfill. The old covenant brings death. That is why it is called the ministry of death. Jesus fulfilled the entire law, thereby granting us admission to live under the new. The old covenant was meant for the Jews, not gentiles. If Jesus hadn't come, gentiles would have been excluded.

[aubfaninga 16]

Gentiles were at the mountain with Moses too.

Moses was given the Law by GOD to show THE WORLD SIN. The covenant mediated by Moses could not bring life.

Jesus came to offer a better covenant and he could remove our sins and offer eternal life.

Jesus came to save us from our sins... not the LAW. If one Continues to live in sin then the truth is not in them.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Gentiles were at the mountain with Moses too.

Moses was given the Law by GOD to show THE WORLD SIN. The covenant mediated by Moses could not bring life.

Jesus came to offer a better covenant and he could remove our sins and offer eternal life.

Jesus came to save us from our sins... not the LAW. If one Continues to live in sin then the truth is not in them.

Are you serious?

[aubfaninga 16]

Gentiles were at the mountain with Moses too.

Moses was given the Law by GOD to show THE WORLD SIN. The covenant mediated by Moses could not bring life.

Jesus came to offer a better covenant and he could remove our sins and offer eternal life.

Jesus came to save us from our sins... not the LAW. If one Continues to live in sin then the truth is not in them.

Are you serious?

1 John 2:4

1 John 3:6

1 John 3:9

Romans 6:1-2

[DKW 86 7,426]

If you feel that discussing scripture is like beating a dead horse then feel free to not comment but I find it strange that you grow tired of the Word of God.

Can you add something to the debate?

DKW, Are You are going on record as well that Paul taught against the ten commandments? Do you stand with Weegle that the ten commandments have been done away with?

No, i feel this is not an appropriate place to discuss details of faith.

Matthew 7:6