The Law and Grace Discussion

[aubfaninga 16]

No, i feel this is not an appropriate place to discuss details of faith.

Matthew 7:6

I can honestly say that I have never thought of any Auburn man or women as a "dog" or "pig". Especially anyone in this forum!

Maybe I misread that name of this site. I thought I was in a site built for the Auburn "family".

I am saddened and shocked that you view any of us as "dogs" or "pigs".

[DKW 86 7,419]

Folks, as a Christian man i apologize for the actions of another man that refuses to act like a grownup. Please understand that we are not all like this.

[aubfaninga 16]

If you feel that discussing scripture is like beating a dead horse then feel free to not comment but I find it strange that you grow tired of the Word of God.

Can you add something to the debate?

DKW, Are You are going on record as well that Paul taught against the ten commandments? Do you stand with Weegle that the ten commandments have been done away with?

No, i feel this is not an appropriate place to discuss details of faith.

Matthew 7:6

Direct quote from King James Bible

Matthew 7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

This verse pulls inspiration from Psalm 80...

Thou makest us a strife unto our neighbours: and our enemies laugh among themselves.

Turn us again, O God of hosts, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

Thou preparedst room before it, and didst cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land.

The hills were covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof were like the goodly cedars.

She sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river.

Why hast thou then broken down her hedges, so that all they which pass by the way do pluck her?

>>>>The boar out of the wood doth waste it, and the wild beast of the field doth devour it.

Your craziness isnt about being FOR Christ or even the God of Abraham. It is about yourself.

You are making a mockery of the verse in Matthew to not throw your pearls of wisdom, ie your understanding of the Word, in front of non-Believers.

If in your jacked up mind you can screw that admonish up, then you are as warped as the rest of the board thinks you are.

[Weegle777 78]

Still not sure why anyone would want to follow the ministry of death and condemnation and not life.

The "HYPER GRACE" argument goes something like this: In 2 Corinthians 3:7, Paul speaks about "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones." He states that this ministry of death "was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance." But, Paul continues, this "glory was passing away."

The shining of Moses' face refers to Exodus 34, which describes Moses coming down from the mountain the second time with the Ten Commandments, and because of his close contact with GOD there, his face shone. From this, HG teachers conclude that the ministry of death is the Ten Commandments, which are "passing away." Notice only Moses face glowed while everyone else saw the tablets. Moses glory and minisry was fading much like John the Baptist testified. "I must decrease and he (Jesus) must increase)

To emphasize this further, Paul repeats that this ministry of death is passing away in verses 11 and 13. This reasoning then leads HG teachers to claim that the Ten Commandments and the whole Old Testament are now obsolete!

What is Paul talking about in these verses? What is this ministry of death? What is it that is passing away? Could the law of God—which Paul declares to be "spiritual" (Romans 7:14) and "holy, just and good" (verse 12)—have passed away and become obsolete? If he is not saying this, why does he mention Moses receiving the Ten Commandments and his face shining? What do these scriptures REALLY mean?

A Contrast in Covenants

As in all cases where scriptures are difficult to understand, we must read them in context. At the beginning of chapter 3, Paul praises the Corinthians for the joy, satisfaction and affection he felt in seeing the growth and accomplishments of this congregation of the church of God.

"Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men." 2 Corinthians 3

Paul boasts that the church at Corinth displayed such a fine example that their behavior worked like a letter of commendation for him, the apostle who started the congregation and served it.

In verse 3, Paul uses this metaphor of a letter of commendation to lead into a discussion comparing the Old and New Covenants. "You are manifestly an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living GOD, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart." When God made the Old Covenant with ancient Israel, Moses wrote the commandments, statutes and judgments that God had given to him in a book with "ink" (Exodus 24:4). God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger on two tablets of stone (Exodus 31-32). However, Paul points out, under the New Covenant, God has given us His Spirit, enabling us to keep His laws in their spiritual intent. He is now writing His Ten Commandments on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10)!

In verses 4-5, Paul gives all the credit to God and Christ for the knowledge that he and other ministers transmitted to the Corinthians. In verse 6, he returns to the two covenants, declaring that he and his colleagues were ministers of the New Covenant: "[God] also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit." Under the Old Covenant, God never gave the people the Holy Spirit to keep his ways. He required them to keep the law only in the "letter" and not in its spiritual intent and purpose as Jesus later magnified it.

For example, the 6th Commandment forbids murder. As long as one does not actually take someone's life, he has kept the commandment in the letter. However, Jesus taught that anyone who is angry with his brother without a cause or even insults someone else is in danger of breaking this law. Because we have God's Spirit under the New Covenant, we can keep His laws not only in the letter but also in their spiritual intent.

The apostle then writes, "for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life". This statement is a key to understanding the rest of the chapter. "The letter kills" means that, in agreeing to the terms of the Old Covenant and accepting God's law, the carnal nation of Israel fell under the condemnation of the law because the people could not keep it. When law is broken, a penalty results, and the penalty for breaking God's law is death. Thus, without the ability to keep it properly, the Israelites incurred the death penalty.

Paul explains this as it occurred to him personally in Romans 7:9-11.

"I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me."

A Better Covenant

The Old Covenant had a fault: The people under it were unable or unwilling to obey God's law. The author of Hebrews mentions this in his discussion of the New Covenant's superiority over the Old:

"For if that first [Old] covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second [New Covenant]. Because finding fault with them [the Israelites], He says: "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Hebrews 8:7-8

Since the Spirit of God was not generally available under the Old Covenant, the carnal Israelites could not obey the law even in the letter. They broke the covenant that they had made with God, so a New Covenant was necessary.

Under the New Covenant, God gives us His Holy Spirit upon repentance and baptism. This enables us to keep God's law even in its spiritual intent. Furthermore, under the New Covenant, God provides a means for repentant sinners to receive pardon for their sins and have Christ's righteousness imputed to them. These people are no longer under the condemnation of the law, and the way is open for them to inherit eternal life. This is what Paul means when He says, "the Spirit gives life" 2 Corithians 3:6.

We now have the background to understand that when Paul speaks of "the ministry of death" (verse 7), he refers to the administration of the Old Covenant. The Levitical preisthood, a carnal priesthood based on physical descent from Levi, administered the Old Covenant. This covenant provided no promise of eternal life and no means for sinners to receive forgveness because "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4). Therefore, the people lived and died under the condemnation of the law, and "the wages of sin is death"(Romans 6:23).

Another reason why Paul refers to the Old Covenant as "the ministry of death" is that God required the Levitical priesthood to execute those who transgressed certain laws. God's law mandates the death penalty for certain sins like murder and dishonoring parents, Sabbath-breaking, and certain sexual sins. The priests were responsible to enforce the death penalty by actually putting such transgressors to death in the proscribed manner. In this sense, the Old Covenant ministry was indeed a "ministry of death."

"Engraved on Stones"

However, why did Paul say that the "ministry of death," the administration of the Old Covenant, was "written and engraved on stones"? Was it not the Ten Commandments that God wrote on two stone tablets? Even though the Ten Commandments were not the covenant itself (a covenant is simply an agreement between two parties), they were the terms of the covenant. Because the Ten Commandments constituted the part of the agreement between God and Israel that the Israelites agreed to keep, the Old Covenant became synonymous with the Ten Commandments. In Deuteronomy 4:13 Moses writes, "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tables of stone."

To put it another way, "keeping the Old Covenant" was the same as "keeping the Ten Commandments."

A paraphrase of the first eleven words of 2 Corinthians 3:7 helps to clarify what Paul means: "But if the administration of the Old Covenant, [the terms of which were] written and engraved on stones. . . ." The Ten Commandments undergirded all the laws that God gave to Israel—laws that the Israelites could not keep. The responsibility to teach these laws to Israel and enforce penalties for disobedience, including the death penalty, fell to the priests.

Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (Hebrews 7:11)

When Moses went up Mount Sinai the second time to receive the Ten Commandments, he wrote God's statutes and judgments in a book, and God wrote the Ten Commandments on two tables of stone. This, in essence, finalized the "contract" that God made with Israel.

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." (Exodus 34)

Verses 29-35 then describe how Moses face shone when he delivered the Ten Commandments and the book of the law to Israel.

So what is passing away? Hebrews 8:13 provides the answer: "In that He says, ‘A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." The Old Covenant and the Old Covenant ministry, the Levitical priesthood, are passing away, not the Ten Commandments!

The Glory of the Covenants

The apostle goes on to say that this "ministry of death" was glorious as indicated by Moses' face shining when He delivered the covenant to the Israelites. If this ministry of death was glorious, he reasons, how much more glorious must the New Covenant ministry, "the ministry of the Spirit," be?

"For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious." 2 Corinthians 3:9-11

In this same chapter, Paul explains that the veil Moses wore to hide his shining face symbolizes Israel's' failure to understand the truths of the New Covenant.

"But their minds were hardened. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 2 Corinthians 3:14-15

As most of us have experienced, the knowledge of God's truth has to be miraculously revealed to an individual through the calling of God. Understanding opens to us like the lifting of a veil that had been covering our eyes. "Nevertheless, when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away" (verse 16).

Paul ends his discussion by showing what marvelous blessings God has bestowed upon us in allowing us to enter the New Covenant:

"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord" (verse 18).

We who have been called and ordained of God to understand His marvelous truths are now having God's Ten Commandments written on our hearts by His Spirit dwelling within us (Hebrews 8:10). We now have no hindrance to learning and applying the Word of God in our lives, which sanctifies and cleanses us Ephesians 5:26. Through this process, we are being transformed into the glorious image of our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ, the One who kept God's Ten Commandments perfectly.

What a blessing and privilege to be participants in the New Covenant!

"Hyper Grace" is a term used typically by baptists and those who like to use the phrase,

"oh no, we must have balance between law and Grace..."

The problem is that most people, and I include myself in this group though I am in the process of de-programming the bad teaching I was given through the years, have a difficult time accepting the fact that Jesus completed the work and made a covenant between Himself and Himself and we really have no part in it other than to believe and rest in Him. It messes with their ego because they feel that they must "have a role in their salvation."

They will use the verses,

"Work out your faith with fear and trembling."

"Faith without works is dead."

"All scripture is good for teaching, reproof,...."

All that use these verses cherry-pick the bible just to win arguments, never taking into account the context of each passage.

Most people fear what Grace really is because they say, "it can't be this easy, I have to do something!" And you do have to do two things,

Believe and rest. That is all. Working in and for the kingdom isn't a requirement for salvation, it is something that you "get" to do. It's a perk so to say of knowing Jesus. We are beneficiaries of a covenant that was made between God and God. That is the "anchor" that scripture speaks of.

Believe and rest. That is all.

[aubfaninga 16]

They will use the verses,

"Work out your faith with fear and trembling."

"Faith without works is dead."

"All scripture is good for teaching, reproof,...."

All that use these verses cherry-pick the bible just to win arguments, never taking into account the context of each passage.

Can you please help me understand these verses "in context"? I am very interested in how you explain the context surrounding these verses. Maybe I have made an error.

#1 "work out your faith with fear and trembling" "context" being from Philippians 1:3 to Philippians 2:18

#2 "faith without works is dead" "context" being the entire letter of James

#3 "All Scripture is good for teaching..."context being all of 2 Timothy 3:1 to 2 Timothy 4:8

#3 really has me scratching my head.

Words from 2 Timothy

"So I give you this command: Tell everyone God’s message. Be ready at all times to do whatever is needed. Tell people what they need to do, tell them when they are doing wrong, and encourage them. Do this with great patience and careful teaching.

>>>>The time will come when people will not listen to the true teaching. But people will find more and more teachers who please them. They will find teachers who say what they want to hear. People will stop listening to the truth. They will begin to follow the teaching in false stories. But you should control yourself at all times. When troubles come, accept them. Do the work of telling the Good News. Do all the duties of a servant of God."

My favorite passages come from this context of Philippians.

"In your life together, think the way Christ Jesus thought.

He was like God in every way, but he did not think that his being equal with God was something to use for his own benefit. Instead, he gave up everything, even his place with God.

He accepted the role of a servant, appearing in human form.

During his life as a man, he humbled himself by being fully obedient to God, even when that caused his death—death on a cross.

So God raised him up to the most important place and gave him the name that is greater than any other name.

God did this so that every person will bow down to honor the name of Jesus. Everyone in heaven, on earth, and under the earth will bow.

They will all confess, “Jesus Christ is Lord,”

and this will bring glory to God the Father."

"My dear friends, you always obeyed what you were taught. Just as you obeyed when I was with you, it is even more important for you to obey now that I am not there. So you must continue to live in a way that gives meaning to your salvation. Do this with fear and respect for God. Yes, it is God who is working in you. He helps you want to do what pleases him, and he gives you the power to do it."

[Weegle777 78]

You have a beautiful family my friend.

[aubfaninga 16]

You have a beautiful family my friend.

Thank you Weegle. Just wanted to share with you to show our disagreements regarding faith have no bearing on me viewing you as a friend. War Eagle Weegle!!!

[Weegle777 78]

Don't ever worry about that my man.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

Very uplifting! I am scared to death to participate in this thread. Politically, I love the debate even when it turns somewhat nasty. Spiritually however, I hate to see Christians divided over anything rather than being united in Christ's love. I truly believe that God's laws reflect love rather than restriction. His mercy is the ultimate unconditional love. Much love, respect, and appreciation to both of you!