The Law and Grace Discussion

[Weegle777 78]

Sorry, I mistyped. I meant God found fault with the First or Old Covenant. And you are correct, the law is holy and just and perfect. That is the entire reason that Jesus came. Because we could never fulfill the law and would live our lives in misery trying to. And the law does one thing, it sheds light on sin. Because as you posted earlier, where there is no law, there is no sin. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law so that we could be free from the law. The law of what is right and what is wrong is now written on our hearts. When you become a follower of Jesus, you are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness. You have ALL sin past, present, and future forgiven and taken away, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and seated in heaven with Christ at the right hand of the Father. You are righteous, holy, perfect, unstained, unblemished, and spotless. As He is right now, so are we in this world. Even John said, "Behold the Lamb, who TAKETH away the SIN of the world." We are no longer sinners, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. We battle against the embodiment of sin and the flesh, but we are no longer sinners, or that would be calling Him a liar.

No problem brother. Thanks for clarifying.

If God did so much for you why then do you ignore the very things that caused Jesus to be crucified?

Whom do you say gave Moses the LAW?

I am also trying to understand how Jesus saved us from Moses LAW when you teach that gentiles were never given the LAW. How can we be saved from a LAW that was never meant for us? Something is flawed there.

We were not under LAW in the first place.

Jesus saved us from the LAW that we were never under?

Does not make since.

Gentiles had no hope of salvation because we weren't included with the Jews under the Mosaic Law. Jesus came so that He could fulfill the requirements of the law and so that Gentiles could be included in that Hope.

[Weegle777 78]

My question is, why do you need to live by a set of 613 laws when the requirements for those laws were fulfilled by Jesus? Because if you break one law, you break all 613 of them. Why would you choose to live in guilt when you don't have to?

[aubfaninga 16]

My question is, why do you need to live by a set of 613 laws when the requirements for those laws were fulfilled by Jesus? Because if you break one law, you break all 613 of them. Why would you choose to live in guilt when you don't have to?

613??? I love this number. This number is based off Rabbinic laws. I have no desire to practice "Judaism". If you want to trust the Talmud and spread it's teaching then knock yourself out. I refuse to promote anything Talmud.

"""Many Christians, in order to show Torah observant believers the "error of their ways," gleefully and with undertones of sarcasm bring up the fact that "no one can keep those old 613 commandments." Fact is, hardly any of these Christians realize what the 613 commandments were, in the first place, nor that no one (including Yeshua) has ever kept them all - because most were for the priests; some were only for men while others only for women; some were only for a certain point in time; some for Nazirite vows, and 200+ related to the Temple which is not standing!

They also don't realize that the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) were more of a man-made tradition rather than an actual number of commandments sent down by YHWH (Yahweh). The idea originated in the Talmud."""

At any rate, if you read and try to understand the bible it would not take long to realize that you don't have to keep no where near 613 laws in the first place.

I am not a Levite and there is no Temple. 613 just got greatly reduced

I am not a woman so we can knock those off.

I am not a farmer nor do I own land so we can knock those off.

You yourself already keep most of the remaining laws and did not even know it. You don't murder, commit incest, adultery, rape, etc...

As a matter of fact, if you were to make a checklist you would have a very short list.

Here is a list of the 3 that usually remain

#1 Sabbath (which is one of the ten commandments)

#2 Dietary guidelines

#3 Holy Days

99% of the time this where people find the LAW so burdensome. Most are raised not observing any Sabbath, eating pork and shrimp, and celebrating traditional holidays over the ones written in scripture.

Mark 7

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

You wrote...

"Because if you break one law, you break all 613 of them. Why would you choose to live in guilt when you don't have to?"

If I break one law I have an advocate with the FATHER.

1 John 2:1

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins;"

Now that I know my sin has been forgiven at the price of Jesus horrific experience at the cross why do I want to carry the guilt of continuing to live in the very sin he had to die for? I would have a hard time looking in him in the eyes.

If your parents bailed you out of jail for a DUI, would you feel comfortable getting drunk and driving the next day?

1 John 3

4 Anyone who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law. 5 You know that Christ came to take away people’s sins. There is no sin in Christ. 6 So whoever lives in Christ does not continue to sin. If they continue to sin, they have never really understood Christ and have never known him.

7 Dear children, don’t let anyone lead you into the wrong way. Christ always did what was right. So to be good like Christ, you must do what is right. 8 The devil has been sinning since the beginning. Anyone who continues to sin belongs to the devil. The Son of God came for this: to destroy the devil’s work.

[Weegle777 78]

My question is, why do you need to live by a set of 613 laws when the requirements for those laws were fulfilled by Jesus? Because if you break one law, you break all 613 of them. Why would you choose to live in guilt when you don't have to?

613??? I love this number. Try counting the commandments in the New Testament.

At any rate, if you read and try to understand the bible it would not take long to realize that you don't have to keep no where near 613 laws in the first place.

I am not a Levite and there is no Temple. 613 just got greatly reduced

I am not a woman so we can knock those off.

I am not a farmer nor do I own land so we can knock those off.

You yourself already keep most of the remaining laws and did not even know it. You don't murder, commit incest, adultery, rape, etc...

As a matter of fact, if you were to make a checklist you would have a very short list.

Here is a list of the 3 that usually remain

#1 Sabbath (which is one of the ten commandments)

#2 Dietary guidelines

#3 Holy Days

99% of the time this where people find the LAW so burdensome. Most are raised not observing any Sabbath, eating pork and shrimp, and celebrating traditional holidays over the ones written in scripture.

Mark 7

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

You wrote...

"Because if you break one law, you break all 613 of them. Why would you choose to live in guilt when you don't have to?"

If I break one law I have an advocate with the FATHER.

1 John 2:1

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins;"

Now that I know my sin has been forgiven at the price of Jesus horrific experience at the cross why do I want to carry the guilt of continuing to live in the very sin he had to die for? I would have a hard time looking in him in the eyes.

If your parents bailed you out of jail for a DUI, would you feel comfortable getting drunk and driving the next day?

1 John 3

4 Anyone who sins breaks God’s law. Yes, sinning is the same as living against God’s law. 5 You know that Christ came to take away people’s sins. There is no sin in Christ. 6 So whoever lives in Christ does not continue to sin. If they continue to sin, they have never really understood Christ and have never known him.

7 Dear children, don’t let anyone lead you into the wrong way. Christ always did what was right. So to be good like Christ, you must do what is right. 8 The devil has been sinning since the beginning. Anyone who continues to sin belongs to the devil. The Son of God came for this: to destroy the devil’s work.

James would disagree with you:

James 2:10-11

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

[aubfaninga 16]

My question is, why do you need to live by a set of 613 laws when the requirements for those laws were fulfilled by Jesus? Because if you break one law, you break all 613 of them. Why would you choose to live in guilt when you don't have to?

In my previous post I mentioned counting commandments in the New Testament. Here ya go....

http://www.biblicalresearchreports.com/categorizedcommands.php

[aubfaninga 16]

James would disagree with you:

James 2:10-11

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

With all respect, that has to be one of the worst examples of pulling and using a verse out of context.

Thou shall not murder and thou shall not commit adultery were both written in the law and confirmed in the New Testament. You have to be the first person that reads James the way you do. He was stressing the point of striving to live a godly life with everything that you have in every area of your life. The verse is only an illustration that has nothing to do with repentance or salvation. He was trying to open there eyes that showing partiality was just as bad as murdering someone. Here is the very verses before the one you pulled out of context.

James 2

"If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, ;You shall love your neighbor as yourself,; you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors."

He was taking something that even most churches today do not value (being snooty to the "lower class") and using the shock value of murder and adultery to wake them up.

The verse you pulled out of context has nothing to do with repentance or forgiveness. He was teaching about treating "the poor" or lower class differently. Please go back and read James chapter 2 in context.

James argues the same points that I have made. If you read chapter 4 you will see that he is telling believers to repent from the sins they were committing. AND YES, These are born again believers who are sinning. (which you claim is impossible) James is not for non believers he was speaking to BROTHERS.

James 4

"You people are not faithful to God! You should know that loving what the world has is the same as hating God. So anyone who wants to be friends with this evil world becomes Gods enemy. Do you think the Scriptures mean nothing? The Scriptures say,;The Spirit God made to live in us wants us only for himself. But the kindness God shows is greater. As the Scripture says, ;God is against the proud, but he is kind to the humble.;

So give yourselves to God. Stand against the devil, and he will run away from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. You are sinners, so clean sin out of your lives. You are trying to follow God and the world at the same time. Make your thinking pure. Be sad, be sorry, and cry! Change your laughter into crying. Change your joy into sadness. Be humble before the Lord, and he will make you great."

Another example that I am in agreement with James

James 5

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."

James is the least perfect book for anyone that has faith in the hyper grace gospel. Hyper grace teaches nothing more needs to be done outside of belief and that a born again believer cannot sin and is always saved.

James believed that Faith without works is dead.

James 2:17 "So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless"

He knew that believers not only could sin but were sinning. The whole book oozes correction to the brothers.

[Weegle777 78]

James would disagree with you:

James 2:10-11

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

With all respect, that has to be one of the worst examples of pulling and using a verse out of context.

Thou shall not murder and thou shall not commit adultery were both written in the law and confirmed in the New Testament. You have to be the first person that reads James the way you do. He was stressing the point of striving to live a godly life with everything that you have in every area of your life. The verse is only an illustration that has nothing to do with repentance or salvation. He was trying to open there eyes that showing partiality was just as bad as murdering someone. Here is the very verses before the one you pulled out of context.

James 2

"If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, ;You shall love your neighbor as yourself,; you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors."

He was taking something that even most churches today do not value (being snooty to the "lower class") and using the shock value of murder and adultery to wake them up.

The verse you pulled out of context has nothing to do with repentance or forgiveness. He was teaching about treating "the poor" or lower class differently. Please go back and read James chapter 2 in context.

James argues the same points that I have made. If you read chapter 4 you will see that he is telling believers to repent from the sins they were committing. AND YES, These are born again believers who are sinning. (which you claim is impossible) James is not for non believers he was speaking to BROTHERS.

James 4

"You people are not faithful to God! You should know that loving what the world has is the same as hating God. So anyone who wants to be friends with this evil world becomes Gods enemy. Do you think the Scriptures mean nothing? The Scriptures say,;The Spirit God made to live in us wants us only for himself. But the kindness God shows is greater. As the Scripture says, ;God is against the proud, but he is kind to the humble.;

So give yourselves to God. Stand against the devil, and he will run away from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. You are sinners, so clean sin out of your lives. You are trying to follow God and the world at the same time. Make your thinking pure. Be sad, be sorry, and cry! Change your laughter into crying. Change your joy into sadness. Be humble before the Lord, and he will make you great."

Another example that I am in agreement with James

James 5

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."

James is the least perfect book for anyone that has faith in the hyper grace gospel. Hyper grace teaches nothing more needs to be done outside of belief and that a born again believer cannot sin and is always saved.

James believed that Faith without works is dead.

James 2:17 "So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless"

He knew that believers not only could sin but were sinning. The whole book oozes correction to the brothers.

I never said that we didn't deal with sin, we do. We just don't have the nature of a sinner anymore. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are cleansed from all unrighteousness. That can't change. And Jewish men called all Jewish men brothers, no matter if they followed Jesus or not. What James said was very much in context with the discussion. He illustrated that if you break one law, you break them all. He used murder and adultery as illustrations to make his point. What I don't think you are getting is that when we become followers of Christ, our salvation is secure. Otherwise Jesus died in vain.

[Weegle777 78]

Not sure what you mean by hyper grace. Grace is what it is. To believe that you play a part other than believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, in your salvation and that you can add to what Jesus did is the highest form of pride.

I think that we are arguing two totally different points here.

[cooltigger21 0]

The best way to put it, in my mind, is this. We cannot do enough things or ever be saved by our own merits. It is the blood of Christ as that perfect sacrifice that saves us. We are not absolved from doing anything and we, even though we are Christians, can lose our salvation by what we do or even what we don't do. If one is truly a lover of Christ he will keep his commandments and demonstrate his faith and love by his deeds.

[Weegle777 78]

The best way to put it, in my mind, is this. We cannot do enough things or ever be saved by our own merits. It is the blood of Christ as that perfect sacrifice that saves us. We are not absolved from doing anything and we, even though we are Christians, can lose our salvation by what we do or even what we don't do. If one is truly a lover of Christ he will keep his commandments and demonstrate his faith and love by his deeds.

You can't lose your salvation. Grace is not Grace if that is true. And we are absolved from all sin past, present, and future when Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

[cooltigger21 0]

The best way to put it, in my mind, is this. We cannot do enough things or ever be saved by our own merits. It is the blood of Christ as that perfect sacrifice that saves us. We are not absolved from doing anything and we, even though we are Christians, can lose our salvation by what we do or even what we don't do. If one is truly a lover of Christ he will keep his commandments and demonstrate his faith and love by his deeds.

You can't lose your salvation. Grace is not Grace if that is true. And we are absolved from all sin past, present, and future when Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Well on that point we'll have to disagree. You are not once saved always saved no matter what you may do. It's not your deeds in and of themselves that save you but your attitude. A christian can fall from grace. You don't live a sin free life but you walk with God and keep yourself close to him. If you retain the right relationship with him, the blood of Christ will continue to cleanse you of your sins. All of the ten commandments except for keeping the Sabbath were brought forth in the new covenant.

[Weegle777 78]

The best way to put it, in my mind, is this. We cannot do enough things or ever be saved by our own merits. It is the blood of Christ as that perfect sacrifice that saves us. We are not absolved from doing anything and we, even though we are Christians, can lose our salvation by what we do or even what we don't do. If one is truly a lover of Christ he will keep his commandments and demonstrate his faith and love by his deeds.

You can't lose your salvation. Grace is not Grace if that is true. And we are absolved from all sin past, present, and future when Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Well on that point we'll have to disagree. You are not once saved always saved no matter what you may do. It's not your deeds in and of themselves that save you but your attitude. A christian can fall from grace. You don't live a sin free life but you walk with God and keep yourself close to him. If you retain the right relationship with him, the blood of Christ will continue to cleanse you of your sins. All of the ten commandments except for keeping the Sabbath were brought forth in the new covenant.

Do you believe that Jesus' death on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins? Do you believe that His blood washes us clean and cleanses us from all unrighteousness? was His blood sufficient? Are we sealed with the Holy Spirit? When He cleanses us, He removes our sin from us as far as the east is from the west, He takes our sin away, He remembers our sin no more. Was John the Baptist incorrect when he said "Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world."? I am getting really concerned with what I have been reading so far. It is troubling.

[aubfaninga 16]

The best way to put it, in my mind, is this. We cannot do enough things or ever be saved by our own merits. It is the blood of Christ as that perfect sacrifice that saves us. We are not absolved from doing anything and we, even though we are Christians, can lose our salvation by what we do or even what we don't do. If one is truly a lover of Christ he will keep his commandments and demonstrate his faith and love by his deeds.

You can't lose your salvation. Grace is not Grace if that is true. And we are absolved from all sin past, present, and future when Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Well on that point we'll have to disagree. You are not once saved always saved no matter what you may do. It's not your deeds in and of themselves that save you but your attitude. A christian can fall from grace. You don't live a sin free life but you walk with God and keep yourself close to him. If you retain the right relationship with him, the blood of Christ will continue to cleanse you of your sins. All of the ten commandments except for keeping the Sabbath were brought forth in the new covenant.

Do you believe that Jesus' death on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins? Do you believe that His blood washes us clean and cleanses us from all unrighteousness? was His blood sufficient? Are we sealed with the Holy Spirit? When He cleanses us, He removes our sin from us as far as the east is from the west, He takes our sin away, He remembers our sin no more. Was John the Baptist incorrect when he said "Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world."? I am getting really concerned with what I have been reading so far. It is troubling.

A murder walks into church and wants to be saved. He confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord and then gets baptized. He then leaves church and murders again.

A man walks into church and honestly feels that Jesus his Lord. He confesses it and gets baptized. Two years later he gets mad because his wife is cheating. He then plans and commits murder on the man.

In both of the cases the person must confess that they sinned (in honest heart prayer to GOD) and must repent of the sin they committed.

If you believe otherwise you are teaching a false gospel.

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Look, you can kill the prophets if you don't like their message. This is GODS WORDS not mine!!!

Ezekiel 18

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

[Weegle777 78]

The best way to put it, in my mind, is this. We cannot do enough things or ever be saved by our own merits. It is the blood of Christ as that perfect sacrifice that saves us. We are not absolved from doing anything and we, even though we are Christians, can lose our salvation by what we do or even what we don't do. If one is truly a lover of Christ he will keep his commandments and demonstrate his faith and love by his deeds.

You can't lose your salvation. Grace is not Grace if that is true. And we are absolved from all sin past, present, and future when Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Well on that point we'll have to disagree. You are not once saved always saved no matter what you may do. It's not your deeds in and of themselves that save you but your attitude. A christian can fall from grace. You don't live a sin free life but you walk with God and keep yourself close to him. If you retain the right relationship with him, the blood of Christ will continue to cleanse you of your sins. All of the ten commandments except for keeping the Sabbath were brought forth in the new covenant.

Do you believe that Jesus' death on the cross was the perfect sacrifice for our sins? Do you believe that His blood washes us clean and cleanses us from all unrighteousness? was His blood sufficient? Are we sealed with the Holy Spirit? When He cleanses us, He removes our sin from us as far as the east is from the west, He takes our sin away, He remembers our sin no more. Was John the Baptist incorrect when he said "Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world."? I am getting really concerned with what I have been reading so far. It is troubling.

A murder walks into church and wants to be saved. He confesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord and then gets baptized. He then leaves church and murders again.

A man walks into church and honestly feels that Jesus his Lord. He confesses it and gets baptized. Two years later he gets mad because his wife is cheating. He then plans and commits murder on the man.

In both of the cases the person must confess that they sinned (in honest heart prayer to GOD) and must repent of the sin they committed.

If you believe otherwise you are teaching a false gospel.

Again, that is incorrect. Tell me this, I am a follower of Christ, I have been bought with a price. Have I not been cleansed from all unrighteousness? Am I not sealed with the Holy Spirit?

Hebrews 10:11-17

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16

“This is the covenant I will make with them

after that time, says the Lord.

I will put my laws in their hearts,

and I will write them on their minds.”

[

b

]

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts

I will remember no more.”

[

c

]

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Galatians 5

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is true, the works of "the flesh" are these. As followers of Christ, we battle against the flesh, and against the embodiment of sin(the person of sin). Those who are unbelievers and that practice these sins will not inherit the Kingdom.

Look, you can kill the prophets if you don't like their message. This is GODS WORDS not mine!!!

Ezekiel 18

21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!"

If I were you, I would really study in context. God was speaking to the Jewish people not Gentiles. Read in the passage "Oh house of ISRAEL"

Also, read up on the customs and practices of Jewish people under the law. What they call each other, what context and who the books of the Old Testament were written to. This will help you tremendously in understanding which books were written specifically to Jews and which were written to include Gentiles.

For instance, do you know why the Priest in Old Testament never sat down? This is very important to know because in the above passage I quoted, Jesus SAT DOWN at the right hand of the Father. If you don't know the significance of that fact, the passage above will make no sense to you.

When the Priest in Old Testament days was sacrificing for the sins of the people for the year, he dare not sit down because he had to continually offer sacrifices for the people, meaning that he was NEVER FINISHED ans NEVER COMPLETED the act. The reason that Jesus sat down was because He finished the work, He completed the sacrifice for ALL SIN past ,present, and future. If He hadn't completed the perfect work, He could not have sat down.

[Weegle777 78]

Get a study bible that has an explanation of who the author of the book is, who he was writing to, why he was writing to them, and what time period he was writing in. This will help you to understand context. Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. This will help you to interpret Hebrew and Greek words that are used in the bible. Like when you quoted Psalm 110, in the first couple of verses there was one Lord and one lord. These aren't the same, one speaks of Yahweh, and one speaks of a human master or lord. If you don't know that, the verse will hold a totally different meaning than the one you think. Just trying to help my brothers in Christ, please don't think that I am being a jerk.

[aubfaninga 16]

Get a study bible that has an explanation of who the author of the book is, who he was writing to, why he was writing to them, and what time period he was writing in. This will help you to understand context. Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. This will help you to interpret Hebrew and Greek words that are used in the bible. Like when you quoted Psalm 110, in the first couple of verses there was one Lord and one lord. These aren't the same, one speaks of Yahweh, and one speaks of a human master or lord. If you don't know that, the verse will hold a totally different meaning than the one you think. Just trying to help my brothers in Christ, please don't think that I am being a jerk.

I don't think that you are being a jerk at all. Just passionate about your faith. I have a library of books, Concordances, interlinear bibles, and translations of bibles out the ying yang. I am not fluent at speaking Hebrew but I am on my second cycle of reading the Tanakh (commonly called Old Testament) in Hebrew. I have no working knowledge of Greek but I study the best I can using the tools available. I have planned reading to where I complete the bible twice every year. Then there is bible studies and conversations like this that keep me studying. None of this makes me better than anyone else. I was just showing that I am very passionate about my faith just as you are.

I pointed out Psalm 110:1 in the context we were speaking. Everything written had not been "fulfilled". This is where I was pointing... "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Until means future in any language and is shown it's completion is in Revelations 20:14. This is a future event when there will be no more death.

As far as not understanding Psalm 110:1, anyone that has the testimony of Yeshua knows very well what the Holy Spirit was saying thru David. You can listen to all the wise men and commentators all you want but the fact is simple. The only one that has ever sat at the right hand of the FATHER is Yeshua.

Psalm 110

The LORD said to my Lord

The first is the name of GOD and the second simply means adonai or master.

Any Jewish convert that has accepted Jesus as his savior and knows the New Testament will explain this in a heart beat. The first Hebrew word is his name (Yahweh, Yehovah, Jehovah, YHWH, YHVH, knock yourself out on how to pronounce it). Yeshua taught us to pray and call him FATHER.

Our FATHER said to Jesus, sit at my right hand... This is exactly what this means.

Just read down to verse 4

"The LORD (FATHER) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

This prophecy and language is not difficult unless one rejects the authority of the Gospel.

Hebrews 6 even tells you how to read Psalm 110

"Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

This is exactly why Yeshua raised the question...

Matthew 22

"Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."

No man in Jesus day could answer this question because it had not yet been revealed. The New Testament was not written yet.

Some say that this is Jesus speaking to David and try to render it as... "Jesus said to David, sit at my right hand"

This too rejects the authority of what Yeshua himself testified to. When some of the disciples wanted a place of honor beside Jesus he answered...

Mark 10

"But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give;"

Jesus himself said he had no power by himself to give this honor.

This is exactly the same doctrine Jesus taught. We could debate all day on trying to understand "trinity" and the nature of GOD but why? Jesus clearly taught how to read scripture.

David knew this too. His Lord was Jesus and they both did the will of the FATHER that was in heaven.

[aubfaninga 16]

The best way to put it, in my mind, is this. We cannot do enough things or ever be saved by our own merits. It is the blood of Christ as that perfect sacrifice that saves us. We are not absolved from doing anything and we, even though we are Christians, can lose our salvation by what we do or even what we don't do. If one is truly a lover of Christ he will keep his commandments and demonstrate his faith and love by his deeds.

You can't lose your salvation. Grace is not Grace if that is true. And we are absolved from all sin past, present, and future when Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Well on that point we'll have to disagree. You are not once saved always saved no matter what you may do. It's not your deeds in and of themselves that save you but your attitude. A christian can fall from grace. You don't live a sin free life but you walk with God and keep yourself close to him. If you retain the right relationship with him, the blood of Christ will continue to cleanse you of your sins. All of the ten commandments except for keeping the Sabbath were brought forth in the new covenant.

cooltigger21,

Can you please tell me why Jesus said this about the end of days?

Matthew 24:20

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

If the Sabbath day did not carry over after his death then why even mention this?

Also, why in Acts is the 7th day still called the Sabbath when Luke was a gentile writing this?

The Apostles kept Sabbath 85 times in Acts alone. The Sabbath is spoken more times in the New Testament than the entirety of the OLD.

Is Isaiah 56 a false promise?

[Weegle777 78]

The best way to put it, in my mind, is this. We cannot do enough things or ever be saved by our own merits. It is the blood of Christ as that perfect sacrifice that saves us. We are not absolved from doing anything and we, even though we are Christians, can lose our salvation by what we do or even what we don't do. If one is truly a lover of Christ he will keep his commandments and demonstrate his faith and love by his deeds.

You can't lose your salvation. Grace is not Grace if that is true. And we are absolved from all sin past, present, and future when Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Well on that point we'll have to disagree. You are not once saved always saved no matter what you may do. It's not your deeds in and of themselves that save you but your attitude. A christian can fall from grace. You don't live a sin free life but you walk with God and keep yourself close to him. If you retain the right relationship with him, the blood of Christ will continue to cleanse you of your sins. All of the ten commandments except for keeping the Sabbath were brought forth in the new covenant.

cooltigger21,

Can you please tell me why Jesus said this about the end of days?

Matthew 24:20

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

If the Sabbath day did not carry over after his death then why even mention this?

Also, why in Acts is the 7th day still called the Sabbath when Luke was a gentile writing this?

The Apostles kept Sabbath 85 times in Acts alone. The Sabbath is spoken more times in the New Testament than the entirety of the OLD.

Is Isaiah 56 a false promise?

Mark 2:23-27New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

[aubfaninga 16]

Mark 2:23-27New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Before we break this down you have already said that Jesus did not break the LAW. This is important here because if he was teaching others to break the LAW then he was himself still breaking the LAW.

First off in verses 23 and 24 the Pharisees said it was unlawful to pick grain. This is a Talmudic tradition that rubbing heads of grain together is considered work. This is nowhere found anywhere in the bible. They were adding to the word just as preachers today take away from the word.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and He came to fulfill the law not break it. This passage has several aspects that are best read together as Jesus combines them: The Law is concise about the Sabbath (Lev. 23, Duet. 5) and makes a general statement not to work. Plucking grains on your neighbor's property was permitted by the Law (Duet. 23).Reading the Law at face value, the disciples were not breaking Biblical law, but Rabbinical Law. Reaping is one activity forbidden on the Sabbath based on the Mishna and Talmud (basically man saying what you can and can't do).

Now let us assume that they did break the Sabbath LAW because it will go a long way into understanding the riddle about David. These two statements are not unconnected truths. The point being that God's intention with regard to the Sabbath law trumps obedience to the 'letter of the law'. Jesus explains the Sabbath "was made for man" (i.e. to bless him) not the other way round so if a man breaks the Sabbath law to avoid harm coming to himself, he is more in tune with God's intention than if he keeps the law to his harm (as an illustration, a starving man who works on the Sabbath for food does not displease God though he breaks the law).

In essence Jesus seems to be saying obedience to God is not the same as obedience to God's law—even if the law gives insight into how to please God. As another illustration consider our laws concerning a minimum speed limit. It is against the law to drive 30 if the minimum speed is 45. What if someone walks into the road? Is it a bad thing that you broke the written LAW to save a life by slowing down below 45?

Verses 25 and 26 is AWESOME!!! Jesus confirms that what David did was unlawful under the strict letter of the LAW. (which is what the Pharisees were trying to impose) So what trumped obeying the LAW? Why was this so puzzling to the Pharisees? Anyone with the New Testament can find what Jesus taught.

Mark 3

"And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."

He asked the question and then answers the question in Matthew 12

"And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep?"

>>>>>>>>>>Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you will open your heart you will see that Jesus is not doing away with the Sabbath, he is teaching how to use it. Which leads to the next verse....

"The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

This is exactly what I am trying to get across. GOD did not give the LAW because he was mean. It is not some sort of cosmic game. He gave the LAW to protect and bless his children.

There is nothing burdensome about taking one day off for rest. There is nothing burdensome about organizing your financial affairs so that you don't have to do be in a store on Sabbath. It's a date(an appointed time) set apart to meet with GOD and reflect on his word.

The Sabbath was created to bless GODs children and that is how it should be viewed.

[Weegle777 78]

As a side question before I talk about your last post, tbink about this:

In accordance with the Mosaic Law, Jesus is forbidden to be High Priest. Yet He is OUR High Priest in the New Covenant. Has the Law been broken?

[aubfaninga 16]

As a side question before I talk about your last post, tbink about this:

In accordance with the Mosaic Law, Jesus is forbidden to be High Priest. Yet He is OUR High Priest in the New Covenant. Has the Law been broken?

Absolutely not!!! I think that you are still under the impression that I am teaching that one must keep the LAW given to Moses for Salvation. First off, we may like the title "Mosaic LAW" but it was not from his mind. He may have verbally given the LAW but he was simply acting as a mediator between Man and GOD on earth. The LAW that was given by Moses has written into its everlasting words that it is incomplete. The LAW is truth and its precepts are perfect but it had yet to be fully explained (fulfill or pleroo). The LAW speaks nothing of heavenly things and only about the kingdom of earth. Even heavenly things still obey the earthly things. Listen to Hebrews as it testifies to this fact.

Hebrews 8:4 "For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:"

About the LAW not being fully taught as how to understand it's purpose...

Deuteronomy 18:18

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

Now if you take the time to read Deuteronomy 18 you will see that this verse and prophesy is snuggled directly under the offerings given by Levitical Priests. (Our FATHER is awesome)

In Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18:20 tells me how to recognize if they are from GOD.

"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death;

Moses spoke the words that GOD spoke to him. From that point on, any prophet that spoke against the words Moses spoke or speaks in the future is FALSE. Jesus nor Paul never spoke against Moses LAW they just understood it's purpose better than we.

SO am I trying to make Jesus out to be an ordinary person? Let's see...

#1 Yeshua has legal right to the throne of David by the adoption from Joseph. (please see how this also weaved into the story of Saul accepting David as his son)

#2 Yeshua has prophetic bloodlines thru Mary. (John the Baptist was his cousin from Mary and down the line)

#3 Yeshua is a priest in heaven which is higher than a levitical priest.

Yeshua is king, priest, and prophet!!! And if that is not enough, he is the begotten SON of the King of everything. Hardly ordinary!!!

John 3

"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, (again Jesus slipping in that he was the one in the flaming bush preaching to Moses)

how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Jesus was crucified falsely

Matthew 26:16 and 26:61

"So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him."

"And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days."

Jesus never said that he was able to destroy the temple because he couldn't just as David could not touch GODS anointed, King Saul.

Stephen also spoke wisdom and understanding of Moses LAW but was lied about...

Acts 6:10-11 and 13

"And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. Then they secretly induced men to say, ;We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.; "They also set up false witnesses who said,;This man does not cease to speak blasphemous[c] words against this holy place and the law;"

Paul was even accused falsely in his day. What is his response?

Acts 24:14

"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

So we have three accounts of blood being spilt at the hand of just a few false witnesses. So sad we have hundreds of thousands of these ministers of blood today.

Proverbs 29

"The bloodthirsty hate a person of integrity

and seek to kill the upright.

Fools give full vent to their rage,

but the wise bring calm in the end.

If a ruler listens to lies,

all his officials become wicked."

Matthew 19

Now behold, one came and said to Him,;Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?;

So He said to him,;Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>keep the commandments.;

He said to Him,;Which ones?;

Jesus said,You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You shall not bear false witness,<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

aufaninga and Weegle777....thank both of you for this discussion. I have enjoyed it and it turns out to be very timely in today's troubled times.

[aubfaninga 16]

aufaninga and Weegle777....thank both of you for this discussion. I have enjoyed it and it turns out to be very timely in today's troubled times.

I just pray that anyone who reads this can see that people can have difference of views but still stay respectful.

I think Weegle from the bottom of my heart for not only accepting the conversation but starting the thread all while representing himself with class and respect. I do not pretend to know and understand everything about GODS word which is exactly why I do love these conversations. Hebrews 10:25-26 gives an important message about dotting our I's and crossing our T's. {"and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,…"}

Going to your local church is AWESOME and I agree that the context of this verse is about your local church but sometimes growth in the word is stagnated by absolutely no questioning of ones understanding. We must always audit our own understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to work in our lives. The worse thing we can do is become stiff necked and stubborn in our own understanding. If anyone of us believes that we or our local congregation knows everything about doing the will of GOD then we are only fooling ourselves and have become lukewarm believers who have fallen asleep. I discuss pre trib rapture all the time as I believe it not only to be in error but absolutely unnecessary for anyone who has Christ as their Lord and protector. Doing the will of GOD is to spread the Gospel to others. If there is one soul left that needs to hear what Yeshua has done at the expense of my well being then so be it. I only brought pre trib up to jolt some in spirit to at very least pick up the letter written to us one more time. Whether you accept pre trib or not does not matter. The parable of the 10 virgins is not a story of believers vs unbelievers. It is a story of 10 virgins who all believe and know the messiah. They are all waiting and are fully convinced that he will return. This is 10 believers but 5 kept gathering more TRUTH of the Word while the other 5 just rested on their works of confessing Jesus with their lips.

Matthew 25

“At that time God’s kingdom will be like ten virgins who went to wait for the bridegroom. They took their lamps with them. Five of the virgins were foolish, and five were wise. The foolish virgins took their lamps with them, but they did not take extra oil for the lamps. The wise virgins took their lamps and more oil in jars. When the bridegroom was very late, the girls could not keep their eyes open, and they all fell asleep. “At midnight someone announced, ‘The bridegroom is coming! Come and meet him!’ “Then all the virgins woke up. They made their lamps ready. But the foolish virgins said to the wise virgins, ‘Give us some of your oil. The oil in our lamps is all gone.’ “The wise virgins answered, ‘No! The oil we have might not be enough for all of us. But go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ “So the foolish virgins went to buy oil. While they were gone, the bridegroom came. The virgins who were ready went in with the bridegroom to the wedding feast. Then the door was closed and locked. “Later, the other virgins came. They said, ‘Sir, sir! Open the door to let us in.’ “But the bridegroom answered, ‘Certainly not! I don’t even know you.’"

In typical Paul style he takes this parable and gives a second witness that it is about all believers.

Ephesians 5

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. Therefore He says:

“Awake, you who sleep,

Arise from the dead,

And Christ will give you light.”

See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is."

I also pray one more time that anyone who reads this thread does not harden their heart because of pre conceived doctrines while reading either of our words. Neither of our intentions was to convert or change anyone in their faith. Exactly the opposite! Our intentions was to dig deeper into his word, dust the bible off, and read it.

Make no mistake about it, NO WORKS OF MY HAND HAS ANY VALUE IN SALVATION. MY SALVATION COMES THRU YESHUA AND HIM ALONE. I HAVE RESTED FROM MY EFFORTS SO THE WORKS THAT ANYONE SEES ME DOING NOW IS NOT ME BUT YESHUA IN ME. YES I HAVE RETURNED TO THE INSTRUCTIONS FOUND IN HIS WORD BUT NOT FOR MY GLORY BUT HIS. CHRIST IN ME WANTS TO SHOW THE WORLD THAT HIS WORDS ARE PERFECT, TRUE, AND LOVE. I constantly get persecuted and ridiculed with the same words, "no man can keep "the LAW". I have faith in one that can which is exactly why I put my life in his hands. Oh Church of little faith in his WORD!!!

Luke 18:27

"The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Galatians 2

"“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

No matter how we spend time with our families over the next few weeks please remember to set aside all the material matters long enough to give the gift that is eternal. If you truly love your family find time to pick up the WORD which is the greatest gift ever given to mankind. TVs, trains, dolls, cards, money, and everything else will eventually turn to dust but his WORD is more precious than GOLD.

Luke 21:33

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

Stay safe and enjoy your families and loved ones. May our FATHER in HEAVEN bless you in every season!!!

[Weegle777 78]

Thank you guys for this. This is a great discussion and one we should have. Iron sharpens iron! I am spending some time with family out of town is why I haven't responded back. I do have a sermon by a great pastor that I will post a link to later today. I am curious as to what you guys think.

[Weegle777 78]

Check this out and tell me what you guys think.

http://www.andrewfarleylive.com/series-hebrews.php

Click the play arrow on the first sermon on the list. "The Glory of the Son".