US-China war 'inevitable' unless Washington drops demands over South China Sea

[alexava 6,973]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

I wonder if we were faced with a situation like we did in 1941 with Germany and Japan, could we stick it out and see it through to the end? Militarily we could do it but would we have the political will and the will as a people to keep going on despite the setbacks and losses. I hate to say it but I really have my doubts.

we were fighting a war with sovereign governments and military. Not insurgents who hide behind civilians. Of course we were actually challenged and drug into that war in 1941. 13 years after invasion we still have no idea why we are in Iraq. That is where lack of "will" comes from.

We fought this war with one hand tied behind our backs to boot. All the rules of engagement and the determination to avoid even a single civilian casualty kept us from advancing and finishing the war. Look at the early losses we took in the early stages of WWII. It took us practically a full year to even stop the losses and just hold our ground. If we were faced with a direct attack against us by China for instance, could we fight that kind of a war? I don't think you'll ever see that type of war again but this nation has such a short attention span that I don't see it as truly possible. I honestly believe that short of a direct attack by a nation some people would never go anywhere or do anything and I really wonder if they would be willing to fight a war then.

ct we killed tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. And we were supposed to be liberating them. You don't think we created more extremists? If we were willing to wipe out civilians indiscriminately then we could just nuke the place.

Did you ever consider the civilians killed by all those bombing runs in Europe, Africa, and Japan? Just stating the obvious.....

yes but i dont think they were used as human shield as a strategy. the purpose and intent of war was much different. i dont think civilians took up arms after their military was defeated actually those governments surrendered and it was over.

[homersapien 11,392]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

Presumably, by "we", you mean the American people.

Why didn't you highlight the "this administration" part?

Because that's totally predictable, whereas the "we" is ambiguous, much less telling.

[homersapien 11,392]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

I wonder if we were faced with a situation like we did in 1941 with Germany and Japan, could we stick it out and see it through to the end? Militarily we could do it but would we have the political will and the will as a people to keep going on despite the setbacks and losses. I hate to say it but I really have my doubts.

Well, you might as well wonder, because that is a totally unrelated hypothetical.

[homersapien 11,392]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

I wonder if we were faced with a situation like we did in 1941 with Germany and Japan, could we stick it out and see it through to the end? Militarily we could do it but would we have the political will and the will as a people to keep going on despite the setbacks and losses. I hate to say it but I really have my doubts.

we were fighting a war with sovereign governments and military. Not insurgents who hide behind civilians. Of course we were actually challenged and drug into that war in 1941. 13 years after invasion we still have no idea why we are in Iraq. That is where lack of "will" comes from.

We fought this war with one hand tied behind our backs to boot. All the rules of engagement and the determination to avoid even a single civilian casualty kept us from advancing and finishing the war. Look at the early losses we took in the early stages of WWII. It took us practically a full year to even stop the losses and just hold our ground. If we were faced with a direct attack against us by China for instance, could we fight that kind of a war? I don't think you'll ever see that type of war again but this nation has such a short attention span that I don't see it as truly possible. I honestly believe that short of a direct attack by a nation some people would never go anywhere or do anything and I really wonder if they would be willing to fight a war then.

What mindless !

Tigger, you really ought to think more before just posting whatever is buzzing through your mind. I'd suggest at least overnight.

[autigeremt 6,646]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

I wonder if we were faced with a situation like we did in 1941 with Germany and Japan, could we stick it out and see it through to the end? Militarily we could do it but would we have the political will and the will as a people to keep going on despite the setbacks and losses. I hate to say it but I really have my doubts.

we were fighting a war with sovereign governments and military. Not insurgents who hide behind civilians. Of course we were actually challenged and drug into that war in 1941. 13 years after invasion we still have no idea why we are in Iraq. That is where lack of "will" comes from.

We fought this war with one hand tied behind our backs to boot. All the rules of engagement and the determination to avoid even a single civilian casualty kept us from advancing and finishing the war. Look at the early losses we took in the early stages of WWII. It took us practically a full year to even stop the losses and just hold our ground. If we were faced with a direct attack against us by China for instance, could we fight that kind of a war? I don't think you'll ever see that type of war again but this nation has such a short attention span that I don't see it as truly possible. I honestly believe that short of a direct attack by a nation some people would never go anywhere or do anything and I really wonder if they would be willing to fight a war then.

ct we killed tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians. And we were supposed to be liberating them. You don't think we created more extremists? If we were willing to wipe out civilians indiscriminately then we could just nuke the place.

Did you ever consider the civilians killed by all those bombing runs in Europe, Africa, and Japan? Just stating the obvious.....

yes but i dont think they were used as human shield as a strategy. the purpose and intent of war was much different. i dont think civilians took up arms after their military was defeated actually those governments surrendered and it was over.

They didn't ship in from other countries to create civil unrest in the name of religion either. I don't think that wars can' be won through surgical strikes and selective attack. At least when the enemy has no regard for human life.

[cooltigger21 0]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

I wonder if we were faced with a situation like we did in 1941 with Germany and Japan, could we stick it out and see it through to the end? Militarily we could do it but would we have the political will and the will as a people to keep going on despite the setbacks and losses. I hate to say it but I really have my doubts.

we were fighting a war with sovereign governments and military. Not insurgents who hide behind civilians. Of course we were actually challenged and drug into that war in 1941. 13 years after invasion we still have no idea why we are in Iraq. That is where lack of "will" comes from.

We fought this war with one hand tied behind our backs to boot. All the rules of engagement and the determination to avoid even a single civilian casualty kept us from advancing and finishing the war. Look at the early losses we took in the early stages of WWII. It took us practically a full year to even stop the losses and just hold our ground. If we were faced with a direct attack against us by China for instance, could we fight that kind of a war? I don't think you'll ever see that type of war again but this nation has such a short attention span that I don't see it as truly possible. I honestly believe that short of a direct attack by a nation some people would never go anywhere or do anything and I really wonder if they would be willing to fight a war then.

What mindless !

Tigger, you really ought to think more before just posting whatever is buzzing through your mind. I'd suggest at least overnight.

Homer do you ever stop and truly think about anything. We have been incessantly worried mabout not killing civilians and even putting our troops at risk to avoid it sometimes. These people hide behind women and children. The best way to win a war is to win it as quickly as possible and then free up the people. WWIIwas fought with an all out effort to win. We haven't done that since and we have had nothing but trouble ever since. Korea is still there just like it was in 1950. Vietnam is still just as it was We've been in Iraq twice and neither time did we finish the job completely and we're paying the price for that. Surgical strike fighting with an enemy that knows you won't come after them if they mix in with the civilians or bring them in as hunab shields is not going to lead to victory. If you're not going to go all out to win then don't go in. It only leads to more problems than you had to begin with.

Israel was roundly demonized because of the civilians killed when they took out weapons that Hamas had stored in schools and other such places.

[alexava 6,973]

Ct, the last two sentences in your first paragraph say it all.

[Mikey 16,631]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

Presumably, by "we", you mean the American people.

Why didn't you highlight the "this administration" part?

Because that's totally predictable, whereas the "we" is ambiguous, much less telling.

Now you've made me laugh at your nonsense and spit coffee into the little garbage can that lives here, beside my computer desk.

[Mims44 1,874]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

[alexava 6,973]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

root cause

[homersapien 11,392]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

I wonder if we were faced with a situation like we did in 1941 with Germany and Japan, could we stick it out and see it through to the end? Militarily we could do it but would we have the political will and the will as a people to keep going on despite the setbacks and losses. I hate to say it but I really have my doubts.

we were fighting a war with sovereign governments and military. Not insurgents who hide behind civilians. Of course we were actually challenged and drug into that war in 1941. 13 years after invasion we still have no idea why we are in Iraq. That is where lack of "will" comes from.

We fought this war with one hand tied behind our backs to boot. All the rules of engagement and the determination to avoid even a single civilian casualty kept us from advancing and finishing the war. Look at the early losses we took in the early stages of WWII. It took us practically a full year to even stop the losses and just hold our ground. If we were faced with a direct attack against us by China for instance, could we fight that kind of a war? I don't think you'll ever see that type of war again but this nation has such a short attention span that I don't see it as truly possible. I honestly believe that short of a direct attack by a nation some people would never go anywhere or do anything and I really wonder if they would be willing to fight a war then.

What mindless !

Tigger, you really ought to think more before just posting whatever is buzzing through your mind. I'd suggest at least overnight.

Homer do you ever stop and truly think about anything. We have been incessantly worried mabout not killing civilians and even putting our troops at risk to avoid it sometimes. These people hide behind women and children. The best way to win a war is to win it as quickly as possible and then free up the people. WWIIwas fought with an all out effort to win. We haven't done that since and we have had nothing but trouble ever since. Korea is still there just like it was in 1950. Vietnam is still just as it was We've been in Iraq twice and neither time did we finish the job completely and we're paying the price for that. Surgical strike fighting with an enemy that knows you won't come after them if they mix in with the civilians or bring them in as hunab shields is not going to lead to victory. If you're not going to go all out to win then don't go in. It only leads to more problems than you had to begin with.

Israel was roundly demonized because of the civilians killed when they took out weapons that Hamas had stored in schools and other such places.

None of that applies to civil wars and insurgencies. None of it.

[homersapien 11,392]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

Presumably, by "we", you mean the American people.

Why didn't you highlight the "this administration" part?

Because that's totally predictable, whereas the "we" is ambiguous, much less telling.

Now you've made me laugh at your nonsense and spit coffee into the little garbage can that lives here, beside my computer desk.

Well, you are being awful evasive about it. Why is that?

[Mims44 1,874]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

root cause

Do you blame "us" for all the murders and torture under the Saddam regime as well?

They begged us to take out Saddam, thanked us endlessly when we took out Saddam, and then went right to killing each other again. The only difference is there was now a power vacuum where it wasn't just Saddams regime doing all the kidnapping, torturing, and murdering.

We're not the root cause of s***, they've been doing this since the Ottoman empire fell.

[alexava 6,973]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

root cause

Do you blame "us" for all the murders and torture under the Saddam regime as well?

They begged us to take out Saddam, thanked us endlessly when we took out Saddam, and then went right to killing each other again. The only difference is there was now a power vacuum where it wasn't just Saddams regime doing all the kidnapping, torturing, and murdering.

We're not the root cause of s***, they've been doing this since the Ottoman empire fell.

then we made it our problem. do you remember of know why?

[Mims44 1,874]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

root cause

Do you blame "us" for all the murders and torture under the Saddam regime as well?

They begged us to take out Saddam, thanked us endlessly when we took out Saddam, and then went right to killing each other again. The only difference is there was now a power vacuum where it wasn't just Saddams regime doing all the kidnapping, torturing, and murdering.

We're not the root cause of s***, they've been doing this since the Ottoman empire fell.

then we made it our problem. do you remember of know why?

our philosophies differ here, if I give a steak to a homeless man. I don't consider his health and welfare my "problem" from there on out.

That's a bad analogy I know, but my thoughts are the same.

[Mikey 16,631]

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

Presumably, by "we", you mean the American people.

Why didn't you highlight the "this administration" part?

Because that's totally predictable, whereas the "we" is ambiguous, much less telling.

Now you've made me laugh at your nonsense and spit coffee into the little garbage can that lives here, beside my computer desk.

Well, you are being awful evasive about it. Why is that?

The most evasive person on this forum is you. You constantly evade issues and attempt to shift subjects. You should know by now that people see through your game, this is at least the sixth time I've seen you taken to task for evasiveness. Just above, you have still evaded the question of why you skipped over the "administration" part. Your non-answer was, again, evasive. It's what you do and what you're known for. You accusing someone else of being evasive is hilarious!

[icanthearyou 4,463]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

root cause

Do you blame "us" for all the murders and torture under the Saddam regime as well?

They begged us to take out Saddam, thanked us endlessly when we took out Saddam, and then went right to killing each other again. The only difference is there was now a power vacuum where it wasn't just Saddams regime doing all the kidnapping, torturing, and murdering.

We're not the root cause of s***, they've been doing this since the Ottoman empire fell.

then we made it our problem. do you remember of know why?

our philosophies differ here, if I give a steak to a homeless man. I don't consider his health and welfare my "problem" from there on out.

That's a bad analogy I know, but my thoughts are the same.

What if, you burned down a man's house and made him homeless? Any responsibility?

[Mims44 1,874]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

root cause

Do you blame "us" for all the murders and torture under the Saddam regime as well?

They begged us to take out Saddam, thanked us endlessly when we took out Saddam, and then went right to killing each other again. The only difference is there was now a power vacuum where it wasn't just Saddams regime doing all the kidnapping, torturing, and murdering.

We're not the root cause of s***, they've been doing this since the Ottoman empire fell.

then we made it our problem. do you remember of know why?

our philosophies differ here, if I give a steak to a homeless man. I don't consider his health and welfare my "problem" from there on out.

That's a bad analogy I know, but my thoughts are the same.

What if, you burned down a man's house and made him homeless? Any responsibility?

That's also a bad one.

A better one would be. A man has a man pointing a gun to his head... and 99 others waiting in line behind him, you shoot one of the gunmen down. Does it now become your fault for the other 99 gunmen still there?

[icanthearyou 4,463]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

root cause

Do you blame "us" for all the murders and torture under the Saddam regime as well?

They begged us to take out Saddam, thanked us endlessly when we took out Saddam, and then went right to killing each other again. The only difference is there was now a power vacuum where it wasn't just Saddams regime doing all the kidnapping, torturing, and murdering.

We're not the root cause of s***, they've been doing this since the Ottoman empire fell.

then we made it our problem. do you remember of know why?

our philosophies differ here, if I give a steak to a homeless man. I don't consider his health and welfare my "problem" from there on out.

That's a bad analogy I know, but my thoughts are the same.

What if, you burned down a man's house and made him homeless? Any responsibility?

That's also a bad one.

A better one would be. A man has a man pointing a gun to his head... and 99 others waiting in line behind him, you shoot one of the gunmen down. Does it now become your fault for the other 99 gunmen still there?

No. Not even close. The country was "stable" (at least in the context of the region) prior to our invasion. I'm not arguing for intervention but, you keep attempting to make it sound as though we did them a favor.

[alexava 6,973]

The "We killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians." part.

EDIT: let me actually change my answer, to the entire post.

what is your count.

my count was "tens,maybe" hundreds

http://news.national...hs-survey-2013/

the only estimate i have seen less than 100k was W himself, go figure.

Oh so by "we" killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis you mean "we" didn't do it at all, but since there was an American presence in the country then any violent deaths that happen are attributed to us over the past decade+ timeframe.

root cause

Do you blame "us" for all the murders and torture under the Saddam regime as well?

They begged us to take out Saddam, thanked us endlessly when we took out Saddam, and then went right to killing each other again. The only difference is there was now a power vacuum where it wasn't just Saddams regime doing all the kidnapping, torturing, and murdering.

We're not the root cause of s***, they've been doing this since the Ottoman empire fell.

then we made it our problem. do you remember of know why?

our philosophies differ here, if I give a steak to a homeless man. I don't consider his health and welfare my "problem" from there on out.

That's a bad analogy I know, but my thoughts are the same.

What if, you burned down a man's house and made him homeless? Any responsibility?

That's also a bad one.

A better one would be. A man has a man pointing a gun to his head... and 99 others waiting in line behind him, you shoot one of the gunmen down. Does it now become your fault for the other 99 gunmen still there?

No. Not even close. The country was "stable" (at least in the context of the region) prior to our invasion. I'm not arguing for intervention but, you keep attempting to make it sound as though we did them a favor.

we directly killed many innocent. We destroyed infrastructure that was not resorted for many years and may still not be. Turned those lives upside down no electricity, water, money, food, healthcare, transportation. And we can't figure out why they hate us. We didn't have a clear reason for doing this . And can't justify it now.

[Mims44 1,874]

Again, we did not directly kill "many" innocents. And this "stable" region you keep mentioning was only stable because of the ruthless dictator murdering the s*** out of his own people constantly.

You are right that a lot of them hate us now, look back to '04-'05, the infrastructure was gone then too, Saddams regime was gone... yet they are all praising us and waving American flags. Fast forward ten years to today and the country is in horrible shape. Removing a ruthless dictator and his power scheme was not "our" mistake and not a mistake at all in my opinion. The efforts after removing Saddam was a failure.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

Again, we did not directly kill "many" innocents. And this "stable" region you keep mentioning was only stable because of the ruthless dictator murdering the s*** out of his own people constantly.

You are right that a lot of them hate us now, look back to '04-'05, the infrastructure was gone then too, Saddams regime was gone... yet they are all praising us and waving American flags. Fast forward ten years to today and the country is in horrible shape. Removing a ruthless dictator and his power scheme was not "our" mistake and not a mistake at all in my opinion. The efforts after removing Saddam was a failure.

Define "many".

I do not "keep calling the region stable". I called Iraq relatively stable prior to invasion.

Removing a dictator without a plan was clearly a mistake. The country is undeniably in far worse shape. Hell, look at the current chaos, destruction, and human suffering. Sorry, but I do not see how we did the people of Iraq a favor. The invasion of Iraq was a total failure, an utter disaster for Iraq and ourselves. I can appreciate the effort to, "put happy face" on it but, I think we can tell the truth.

[alexava 6,973]

Again, we did not directly kill "many" innocents. And this "stable" region you keep mentioning was only stable because of the ruthless dictator murdering the s*** out of his own people constantly.

You are right that a lot of them hate us now, look back to '04-'05, the infrastructure was gone then too, Saddams regime was gone... yet they are all praising us and waving American flags. Fast forward ten years to today and the country is in horrible shape. Removing a ruthless dictator and his power scheme was not "our" mistake and not a mistake at all in my opinion. The efforts after removing Saddam was a failure.

Define "many".

I do not "keep calling region stable". I called Iraq relatively stable prior to invasion.

Removing a dictator without a plan was clearly a mistake. The country is undeniably in far worse shape. Hell, look at the current chaos, destruction, and human suffering. Sorry, but I do not see how we did the people of Iraq a favor. The invasion of Iraq was a total failure, an utter disaster for Iraq and ourselves. I can appreciate the effort to, "put happy face" on it but, I think we can tell the truth.

saddam was a necessary evil. he was evil and that is the only way that part of the world can operate. no ties to terror, no wmds, we just didn't like him so we destroyed his country and brought chaos to an entire region that we now do not have an answer for how to fix. those people comply to fear. they do not fear us.

[homersapien 11,392]

The most evasive person on this forum is you. You constantly evade issues and attempt to shift subjects. You should know by now that people see through your game, this is at least the sixth time I've seen you taken to task for evasiveness. Just above, you have still evaded the question of why you skipped over the "administration" part. Your non-answer was, again, evasive. It's what you do and what you're known for. You accusing someone else of being evasive is hilarious!

Here's the entire sequence of exchanges:

We lack the political will to defeat even the "Jr. Varsity". China knows they can do as they please and all this administration will do is draw another meaningless red line.

1. Presumably, by "we", you mean the American people.

2. Why didn't you highlight the "this administration" part?

3. Because that's totally predictable, whereas the "we" is ambiguous, much less telling.

Now you've made me laugh at your nonsense and spit coffee into the little garbage can that lives here, beside my computer desk.

Well, you are being awful evasive about it. Why is that?

The most evasive person on this forum is you. You constantly evade issues and attempt to shift subjects. You should know by now that people see through your game, this is at least the sixth time I've seen you taken to task for evasiveness. Just above, you have still evaded the question of why you skipped over the "administration" part. Your non-answer was, again, evasive. It's what you do and what you're known for. You accusing someone else of being evasive is hilarious!

I answered that directly. (see post #3 above).

You are projecting.

I am perhaps one of the least evasive people on this forum. You have a problem with comprehension if you think otherwise. The actual record clearly indicates who is being evasive.

You responded to my initial question (# 1) with a question about a different subject. That's classic evasion. Now you continue to harp on that as a way of evading question #1. So that makes you both evasive and a hypocrite.

Now if you want to discuss the administration, fine. But answer my question first.

[homersapien 11,392]

Again, we did not directly kill "many" innocents....

How in the world can you say that???