AUsince72 11,084 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 10 minutes ago, lionheartkc said: I think you are totally right, this year, but traditionally, we haven't been able to maintain. I firmly believe our peaks are not for lack of talent at the skill positions, but because we get a group of great linemen and blockers, grow them for a couple of years, they hit max potential as seniors, then graduate and we haven't properly prepared to replace them, so we have to start over. We are always "young" for a year or two between great seasons. That certainly fits with the every 3 years type of success we've been having. We need to get to the point where our #2s are just as good as our #1s, even though they are younger, so when our #1s go down, go to the NFL, or graduate, the #2s can just step right in and carry on. Fair 'nuff. W/out a good OL any opinion that ANY of us have about QB philosophy is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McLoofus 35,182 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Just now, AUsince72 said: I'm sure you're referring to me as the "only thing that matters" guy but that's not necessarily what I'm saying. I'm just saying don't hamstring your dual threat QB by forcing him to try and be what he's not. I think Gus did that with Nick in 2014. And since then he's basically only recruited passing QB's (as I stated above) when he should get dual threats and let them play to their strengths and use instincts. The last few years have proven, when the QB in Gus' O is not a threat to run (well) then D's render his O merely average. Definitely referring to you, also, but not just you. Not by a long shot. You share your opinion with many. It's an opinion of mine that's been forming for awhile. Good to see you back, btw! Valid counterpoints to each piece of your argument have already been offered, but I will focus on that last part. I personally can't name a quality "passing QB" with a remotely competent offense around him at Auburn in 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014 or 2015 who failed. 2009, 2011 and 2015 are the only years eligible. 2009 was pretty successful offensively. 2011, we had neither a quality QB nor a competent offense around him. 2015, we may or may not have had a quality QB in RS FR White, but we did not have a competent offense around him, and we only had a healthy Sean White for 4 games. I get that "quality dual threat QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = quality offensive production under Gus", but that concept and "quality passing QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = quality offensive production under Gus" are not mutually exclusive. We can't say that we've seen what Gus can do in that latter scenario, although we did pretty well in 2009 with Chris Todd while totally shifting gears from the trainwreck that was 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McLoofus 35,182 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 16 minutes ago, lionheartkc said: I think you are totally right, this year, but traditionally, we haven't been able to maintain. I firmly believe our peaks are not for lack of talent at the skill positions, but because we get a group of great linemen and blockers, grow them for a couple of years, they hit max potential as seniors, then graduate and we haven't properly prepared to replace them, so we have to start over. We are always "young" for a year or two between great seasons. That certainly fits with the every 3 years type of success we've been having. We need to get to the point where our #2s are just as good as our #1s, even though they are younger, so when our #1s go down, go to the NFL, or graduate, the #2s can just step right in and carry on. Yup. OL was a problem last year. But we weren't great at the skill positions, either. Jovon couldn't stay on the field. Barber saved the Jax St game for us and I will forever be grateful, but he was not a high level RB. Roc Thomas... yeah, that didn't work out very well. Freshmen at HB. Might as well not have had TEs. Duke Williams... injuries to other WRs... it was a motley crew out there. Also, not sure we can say TE will be a "strength" this year. Haven't heard a word yet out of camp. Jalen Harris was a ghost last year. Hard to imagine he's suddenly going to break out. Landon Rice is a true FR. I dunno. We should be stronger than last year, but that bar is pretty much set at ground level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionheartkc 6,150 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Just now, McLoofus said: Yup. OL was a problem last year. But we weren't great at the skill positions, either. Jovon couldn't stay on the field. Barber saved the Jax St game for us and I will forever be grateful, but he was not a high level RB. Roc Thomas... yeah, that didn't work out very well. Freshmen at HB. Might as well not have had TEs. Duke Williams... injuries to other WRs... it was a motley crew out there. Yea... last year was a train wreck far below most of our valleys (save the two ill-fated OC experiments which had their own issues beyond the norm). The injury bug combined with mental meltdowns galore could tank any team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUsince72 11,084 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 44 minutes ago, McLoofus said: Good to see you back, btw! I get that "quality dual threat QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = quality offensive production under Gus", but that concept and "quality passing QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = quality offensive production under Gus" are not mutually exclusive. We can't say that we've seen what Gus can do in that latter scenario, although we did pretty well in 2009 with Chris Todd while totally shifting gears from the trainwreck that was 2008. First, thank you for the kind words. It's great to have AU football right around the corner. I go into football hibernation in the summer lest I get burned out... To hit on your last point.. That's a good way of putting it regarding the two philosophies. But I think that's where I do differ from the non-dual threat camp.. I think "quality dual threat QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = quality offensive production under Gus" but "quality passing QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = merely average production under Gus". The running QB (who, yes, can throw) is what makes all the shifting, fakes, misdirection work. If the QB ain't a bona fide running threat and, thus, can be basically ignored by the D, then they load the box and turn Gus' O into an offset I formation with halfhearted play-action. If the D has to stay disciplined to be wary of the QB on the outside, then that opens up between the tackles and makes a much easier job for the OLine & HBack to open those holes between the tackles. 2009 was a whole different game as ttheywere using Tubs' players. I give a total pass to Gus for that. It was successful considering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aubearcat 2,137 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 6 hours ago, AUDevil said: I guess you guys forgot about the guy that turned Tom Brady into the HOF QB he is today. He was our last truly gifted QB coach. The look of derision emoji along with the laughing emoji was to highlight the irony of a4e's post. He commented Gus was a good QB coach and insinuated now there's not a good QB coach on the staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cole256 17,084 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 2 hours ago, McLoofus said: It seems like one camp in the dual threat debate is willing to acknowledge that running is great and desirable, while the other camp thinks it's the only thing that matters. I'm not sure everybody knows what "dual" means. You are about the only person in your camp that you can make a counter point too and it can be a conversation. Also the only one or two that will actually critique both qb's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyAU 3,633 Posted August 5, 2016 Share Posted August 5, 2016 I think "quality dual threat QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = quality offensive production under Gus" but "quality passing QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = merely average production under Gus". We haven't really seen apples to apples yet in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McLoofus 35,182 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 13 hours ago, johnnyAU said: I think "quality dual threat QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = quality offensive production under Gus" but "quality passing QB + quality offensive talent elsewhere = merely average production under Gus". We haven't really seen apples to apples yet in that regard. Exactly. Somebody can believe that on faith and that's totally cool but speaking in the definitive is folly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUsince72 11,084 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 1 hour ago, McLoofus said: Exactly. Somebody can believe that on faith and that's totally cool but speaking in the definitive is folly. Hey, I may sound like I think I know what I'm talking about but it's only my opinion. Everybody on this forum has been wrong plenty but it hasn't stopped them from giving their opinions. If Gus can get a "strictly passing QB" that makes this offense go like it did in '10 & '13 then I'll HAPPILY say I'm wrong (and I ain't talking Tulsa for you apples lovers) while I eat my hotwings & drink my beer and hollar "WAR EAGLE IT'S GOOD TO BE WRONG!" But so far, he's been at AU 6 years and had 2 amazing years, 3 okay to bad years & 1 pass. What did each of those years have in common at the QB position? I am basing my opinion on the sample I've been given. And for the "different personnel in 2011 & 2014" crowd, well it was pretty much the same personnel from 2009 & 2012...except the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cole256 17,084 Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 As far as qb coaching goes, I brought it into question when I saw both qb's make the same mistakes in the same situations. The difference between the two that I see that I would try to exploit if I was a corner or safety is one tries to make dangerous throws and the other makes the safe throws more times than not. I'd watch film and eat that up. But when that pressure is on neither one has shown the awareness to throw the ball away, they both will force the ball in a tight spot and get tunnel vision if under duress, jj seems to be more jittery and will throw quicker, sw doesn't seem scared at all but it seems that his internal clock isn't set fast enough and he will hold the ball too long. But these are things I was taught to watch and notice that I understand, I'm sure there is a higher level of this that probably shows between the two. As far as other stuff, I'm sure if Gus had a great qb that wasn't a strong runner he could come up with a great offense as well with a great mobile qb. And you guys are right nobody can speak with certainty about anything, this also includes none of you knows how well either qb can throw either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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