QB Coaching

[auburn4ever 1,266]

We haven't had a QB coach since Gene hired Gus to be Auburn's OC/QB coach.

[bigbird 60,564]

7 minutes ago, auburn4ever said:

We haven't had a QB coach since Gene hired Gus to be Auburn's OC/QB coach.

So you're saying the last time we had a QB coach was when we had...Gus?

Great insight. 

[aubearcat 2,137]

1 hour ago, auburn4ever said:

We haven't had a QB coach since Gene hired Gus to be Auburn's OC/QB coach.

   

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

By not making the grade I was not referring to his school work, I was talking about his QB work. Meyers would have talked him into staying if he would have thought his QB skills were D1 level. My comment was to show that Gus can and has improved QB skills including NM's. He is not a pro style QB coach but he can teach them to do what he wants in his offense. Remember Nick Saban has yet to produce a NFL worth QB. But like Gus he coaches them to do what he sees necessary.

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

22 hours ago, oracle79 said:

Sorry 23, I was talking about Gus and the Auburn Admin not about your post.  They could come out and squash all speculation by stating what happened and why he was dismissed.  They chose to keep it in house and of course you're going to have speculation and rumor running wild with nothing concrete said by the head coach.

D1 Coaches are not supposed to release information on players just to satisfy fans.

On 7/30/2016 at 6:44 PM, Altima said:

For the record... Cam leaving Florida had nothing to do with grades.  He left because Tebow came back for his senior season... Cam was actually in good standing at UF when he left (grades and football)...

I was not talking about school grades but about his QB skills at that point. Meyers could have kept him but he did not see the potintial . Neither did Ritch with Marshal. They succeeded by learning how to run it Gus's way. So yes Gus has shown the ability to coach QBs. 

[AUsince72 11,084]

Maybe this has been brought up...haven't been here in awhile....but my only real issue with the QB situation at AU since Gus has been here is that he seems to be on a hellbent obsession to prove that he can create/coach NFL type QB's.  Cam was a transcendent talent but more importantly, he was a danger to run the dang ball on EVERY SINGLE PLAY and not just run it but run it well.  Nick Marshall was just as dangerous, if not as freakish (being a normal sized human who could run fast vs Bigfoot with speed that Cam was).

Not coincidentally 2010 & 2013 were two of the best offenses in the history of AU football.  However, even during their tenures Cam's running declined as 2010 went along and Nick's running was not nearly as effective in 2014 as we constantly were reading about how Gus wants to improve their passing.  Well.......why??  Granted you always want your QB to be a solid passer in terms of making the right throws when he needs to but what's wrong with 500 yards of rushing, eating the clock, and running up EA Sports TD numbers on the ground??  This is COLLEGE football...not the NFL.  Just use what works...and having 4 "running" backs in the backfield is what makes Gus' offense work.....NOT an NFL passer.

Imagine if Tom Osborne quit running Tommie Frazier and forced him to learn to pass like a pro.... What if Bobby Ross/Ralph Friedgen (sorry to bring them up Golf) was more worried about turning Shawn Jones into an NFL passer than just being a winner?  I'm sure I can go on and on...

Gus seems more obsessed with proving that he can run an offense with a pocket passer than just simply running a bad-ass offense, period.  I would love to see JFIII run this offense and almost never throw a pass.  If AU is running the ball down the opponents throat to the tune of 300-500 yards every game then he'll only have to toss it 10 or less times a game and more than likely, they'll be wide open receivers 90% of the time.

I truly believe QB coach or not...the true genius of Gus lies in the offense itself.  And to run this offense to perfection, the QB should merely be a running back who can throw.

War Eagle!

[AUApostle 7,651]

On July 31, 2016 at 4:57 PM, aubearcat said:

   

I guess you guys forgot about the guy that turned Tom Brady into the HOF QB he is today.  He was our last truly gifted QB coach.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

33 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

 However, even during their tenures Cam's running declined as 2010 went along and Nick's running was not nearly as effective in 2014 as we constantly were reading about how Gus wants to improve their passing.  Well.......why??  

Cam's running declined because he got hurt. He played the last part of the season with a back injury. He also improved as a passer and was just as dangerous throwing. Nick's running declined because, in 2014, he didn't have Robinson and Prosch to make giant holes for him. His passing also improved, which made him more dangerous in that regard.

I guess the question to you is, why push the ground game when you can score with a pass.  The odds of a 70 yard rushing touchdown are far greater than the odds of a 70 yard passing touchdown.  The odds of a 1-2 play scoring drive where you run every down are astronomically higher than the odds of a 1-2 play scoring drive when you pass.

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 hour ago, AUsince72 said:

Gus wants to improve their passing.  Well.......why??

Oh dear.

[AUsince72 11,084]

 

2 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

Cam's running declined because he got hurt. He played the last part of the season with a back injury. He also improved as a passer and was just as dangerous throwing. Nick's running declined because, in 2014, he didn't have Robinson and Prosch to make giant holes for him. His passing also improved, which made him more dangerous in that regard.

I guess the question to you is, why push the ground game when you can score with a pass.  The odds of a 70 yard rushing touchdown are far greater than the odds of a 70 yard passing touchdown.  The odds of a 1-2 play scoring drive where you run every down are astronomically higher than the odds of a 1-2 play scoring drive when you pass.

 

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Oh dear.

HAHA!!  No, McLoofus, I haven't lost my mind...I promise.  Not to mention that taking that one sentence out of the entire thought is (in my best Bob Uecker - Major League voice) JUST a bit out of context.  I feel like a conservative politician with the media here... haha!

I'm not saying that having a passing game is not important, especially under normal circumstances when a team has a NORMAL running game.  I was referring to specific seasons/situations when the ground game was a complete juggernaut and could not be stopped.  Which the way Gus and crew recruit, should be EVERY year.

Cam's a little different because he WAS a very good passer, who had a chance to be great (as seen during his NFL career)...but again, he was a freak.  To lionheartkc's point, I concede and agree that Cam was hurt as the season progressed. Perhaps that's not the best example I can use in terms of Gus' thoughts, but to my point, once he ran less and passed more, the games were much closer than they probably would have been with a healthier Cam still the running threat he was earlier (USC SECCG not withstanding).

As for Nick 2013 vs 2014?  Well sure, Robinson and Prosch where beasts but then the use of the QB run in Gus' offense is not about holes made by bruising backs and tackles...that's when he QB hands the ball off to the RB.  The QB running the ball happens when the defense picks their poison and bites on the RB..so when that hole by (not) Prosch and (not) Robinson is not there, that's when it's wide open outside the tackles for Nick (QB) to to run. ...and I'm not saying all of his runs will be 70 yards.  But 5 yards and a first down beats an incomplete pass or Nick looking lost because he's been told to "think pass first then run" instead of just using those God given instincts that he used in 2013.

As for your point about the odds of 70 yard scoring plays and 2-3 play drives... Not sure where that came from, sorry.  The reason I push running over passing is exactly the opposite of that.  I'd rather see a 15 play, 7 minute drive with 8 first downs culminating in a 5 yard touchdown run on a drive to drive basis than constantly having 2 play 80 yard drives that take up a minute and a half to give the ball right back to the likes of Clemson, MSU, UM, LSU, thUGA, Bammer, etc.

[Gibson SG 88]

2 hours ago, AUDevil said:

I guess you guys forgot about the guy that turned Tom Brady into the HOF QB he is today.  He was our last truly gifted QB coach.

You mean "The Loeff"?

[lionheartkc 6,150]

27 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

As for your point about the odds of 70 yard scoring plays and 2-3 play drives... Not sure where that came from, sorry.  The reason I push running over passing is exactly the opposite of that.  I'd rather see a 15 play, 7 minute drive with 8 first downs culminating in a 5 yard touchdown run on a drive to drive basis than constantly having 2 play 80 yard drives that take up a minute and a half to give the ball right back to the likes of Clemson, MSU, UM, LSU, thUGA, Bammer, etc.

That came from the fact that Gus's whole offensive strategy is about quick strikes, which has nothing to do with creating NFL QBs. He has never run a grind it out offense (though it may have seemed so in a few games where we were able to eat up 6+ yards per carry... but those weren't common). His goal is to score quickly, on big plays and hopefully run the score up. The thought is that he can give it back to those teams because if he can score on 70+% of his drives in 3 minutes or less and they can only score on 60% or less of their drawn out drives... he wins.  If you haven't noticed, Gus is not the best red zone coach in the world. He likes score from between the 20s, where his QB has multiple options and time.  I'm sure his philosophy also takes into account that only the offense can lose the ball to a turnover, so the longer you have it on offense, the greater the chance of losing it before scoring. Same goes for 1st downs... the more you have to get, the more chances your opponent has to stop you. Gus likes to try to put the odds squarely in his favor.

[AUsince72 11,084]

6 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

That came from the fact that Gus's whole offensive strategy is about quick strikes, which has nothing to do with creating NFL QBs. He has never run a grind it out offense (though it may have seemed so in a few games where we were able to eat up 6+ yards per carry... but those weren't common). His goal is to score quickly, on big plays and hopefully run the score up. The thought is that he can give it back to those teams because if he can score on 70+% of his drives in 3 minutes or less and they can only score on 60% or less of their drawn out drives... he wins.  If you haven't noticed, Gus is not the best red zone coach in the world. He likes score from between the 20s, where his QB has multiple options and time.  I'm sure his philosophy also takes into account that only the offense can lose the ball to a turnover, so the longer you have it on offense, the greater the chance of losing it before scoring. Same goes for 1st downs... the more you have to get, the more chances your opponent has to stop you. Gus likes to try to put the odds squarely in his favor.

And I totally agree with you regarding the Gus philosophy 100%.  And that comes to the point of my original post.  That philosophy has worked incredibly well the two years that he had the type of QB to run that offense.  A good passer? Sure, but a pure passer? No.  Cam and Nick were both better runners than passers (I'm talking about at Auburn...not NFL Cam).  And to my point, Gus should do nothing but recruit and coach those type of QB's.  He'd look like the genius that I believe he actually is.  However, therein lies my (only real) issue with Gus.  He's recruited such QB's as Clint Moseley, Jeremy Johnson, Tyler Queen, Sean White...the last 3 obviously on the current roster.  None of these guys are run first ask questions later.  They're all practically prototypical NFL types (maybe not Sean White so much but regardless, he sure ain't no threat to run).

*In fairness, I do think JJ was SUPPOSED to be that kind of QB but unfortunately he runs like he's avoiding spider webs unless he's on the goalline.

Now when he has a roster full of John Franklins and Woody Barretts, I think that's when we would really see his offense (and QB coaching) shine.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

41 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

And I totally agree with you regarding the Gus philosophy 100%.  And that comes to the point of my original post.  That philosophy has worked incredibly well the two years that he had the type of QB to run that offense.  A good passer? Sure, but a pure passer? No.  Cam and Nick were both better runners than passers (I'm talking about at Auburn...not NFL Cam).  And to my point, Gus should do nothing but recruit and coach those type of QB's.  He'd look like the genius that I believe he actually is.  However, therein lies my (only real) issue with Gus.  He's recruited such QB's as Clint Moseley, Jeremy Johnson, Tyler Queen, Sean White...the last 3 obviously on the current roster.  None of these guys are run first ask questions later.  They're all practically prototypical NFL types (maybe not Sean White so much but regardless, he sure ain't no threat to run).

*In fairness, I do think JJ was SUPPOSED to be that kind of QB but unfortunately he runs like he's avoiding spider webs unless he's on the goalline.

Now when he has a roster full of John Franklins and Woody Barretts, I think that's when we would really see his offense (and QB coaching) shine.

While I can't disagree with you that, in the past few years, he's had his biggest successes with dual-threat type QBs, I truly believe he adjusted his strategy to use them. The reason he recruited the pure passers is because that is what he built his philosophy around.  Pre-Cam he never really had a dual threat on his roster.  He utilized good backs on the ground and focused primarily on passing with his QB. It appears that now, he's starting to adjust to the idea that the dual-threat type QBs are a) becoming more common and b ) can be a saving grace if you have other weaknesses, so his recruiting appears to have shifted.

[AUsince72 11,084]

9 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

While I can't disagree with you that, in the past few years, he's had his biggest successes with dual-threat type QBs, I truly believe he adjusted his strategy to use them. The reason he recruited the pure passers is because that is what he built his philosophy around.  Pre-Cam he never really had a dual threat on his roster.  He utilized good backs on the ground and focused primarily on passing with his QB. It appears that now, he's starting to adjust to the idea that the dual-threat type QBs are a) becoming more common and b ) can be a saving grace if you have other weaknesses, so his recruiting appears to have shifted.

Ah, and now we're full circle.  Hopefully he truly has adjusted his focus to the dual-threat QB.  If so, then I think our AU Tigers will enjoy sustained success for years to come instead of these Godforsaken peaks and valleys that has been the norm for the better part of a decade now.

War Eagle!

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, AUsince72 said:

Ah, and now we're full circle.  Hopefully he truly has adjusted his focus to the dual-threat QB.  If so, then I think our AU Tigers will enjoy sustained success for years to come instead of these Godforsaken peaks and valleys that has been the norm for the better part of a decade now.

War Eagle!

I appreciate your confidence.  I think we have a few more wrinkles to iron out before the peaks and valleys go away.  A QB does not a team make, and we need more consistency on the D, as well as positions like receiver and tight-end/H-back and o-line to be annual contenders.  I also think, if Gus ever gets his hands on a pure passer that can perform like some he's had in the past, people will be surprised at just how good his offense is if the QB doesn't run at all.

[homersapien 11,386]

A good running game always compliments the passing game and vice versa.

It doesn't really matter who is doing the running, but a QB who can run is definitely an advantage over one who can't.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

A good running game always compliments the passing game and vice versa.

It doesn't really matter who is doing the running, but a QB who can run is definitely an advantage over one who can't.

Agreed... as long as the QB can also pass well.

[homersapien 11,386]

7 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

Agreed... as long as the QB can also pass well.

That's the given, which is my point. You have to put a priority on passing when evaluating QB's.  They must be able to meet a minimum standard for that.

Of course, you need good receivers also.

[McLoofus 35,182]

It seems like one camp in the dual threat debate is willing to acknowledge that running is great and desirable, while the other camp thinks it's the only thing that matters.

I'm not sure everybody knows what "dual" means. 

[AUsince72 11,084]

17 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I appreciate your confidence.  I think we have a few more wrinkles to iron out before the peaks and valleys go away.  A QB does not a team make, and we need more consistency on the D, as well as positions like receiver and tight-end/H-back and o-line to be annual contenders.  I also think, if Gus ever gets his hands on a pure passer that can perform like some he's had in the past, people will be surprised at just how good his offense is if the QB doesn't run at all.

DEFENSE??  What's that?  Seriously, the D is a whole 'nother topic for sure.  While true about the QB not being the only piece of the puzzle, I contend that, through recruiting, AU's offensive talent is 2nd to none.  I mean how many teams can lose CAP, ROC & JR but say that's okay, we'll just Kerryon (as I saw in another thread)? And the WR talent is young but should be young stars.  The OL seems to be in good shape and TE, HB should be strengths.  With AU recruiting that should be yearly (think reload not rebuild).  So, to me, the right "type" of QB does make or break this offense.

Now....D.  Yes, that's the wild card for this program. Talent galore...hopefully we have the coaching, and philosophy, for sustained success there now.  You gotta figure the odds are Gus'll pick the right DC at some point.  Hopefully Steele's the guy but Gus proved 2010 & 2013 the his offense, with the right QB can carry a marginal D.

[AUsince72 11,084]

1 minute ago, McLoofus said:

It seems like one camp in the dual threat debate is willing to acknowledge that running is great and desirable, while the other camp thinks it's the only thing that matters.

I'm not sure everybody knows what "dual" means. 

I'm sure you're referring to me as the "only thing that matters" guy but that's not necessarily what I'm saying.  I'm just saying don't hamstring your dual threat QB by forcing him to try and be what he's not.  I think Gus did that with Nick in 2014. And since then he's basically only recruited passing QB's (as I stated above) when he should get dual threats and let them play to their strengths and use instincts.  

The last few years have proven, when the QB in Gus' O is not a threat to run (well) then D's render his O merely average.

[johnnyAU 3,633]

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

A good running game always compliments the passing game and vice versa.

It doesn't really matter who is doing the running, but a QB who can run is definitely an advantage over one who can't.

Only if he passes as well, or at least close to it...and he isn't prone to turnovers.

[homersapien 11,386]

Just now, johnnyAU said:

Only if he passes as well, or at least close to it...and he isn't prone to turnovers.

Exactly.  My point is that passing will always be the first thing you look for in a QB.  The ability to run is a bonus.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

16 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

I contend that, through recruiting, AU's offensive talent is 2nd to none.  I mean how many teams can lose CAP, ROC & JR but say that's okay, we'll just Kerryon (as I saw in another thread)? And the WR talent is young but should be young stars.  The OL seems to be in good shape and TE, HB should be strengths.

I think you are totally right, this year, but traditionally, we haven't been able to maintain. I firmly believe our peaks are not for lack of talent at the skill positions, but because we get a group of great linemen and blockers, grow them for a couple of years, they hit max potential as seniors, then graduate and we haven't properly prepared to replace them, so we have to start over.  We are always "young" for a year or two between great seasons. That certainly fits with the every 3 years type of success we've been having.  We need to get to the point where our #2s are just as good as our #1s, even though they are younger, so when our #1s go down, go to the NFL, or graduate, the #2s can just step right in and carry on.