Church rejects conservative Republican judge

[TexasTiger 13,005]

Schiavo Judge Attains New Fame, Infamy

Sat Mar 26, 4:00 PM ET

 U.S. National - AP

By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer

CLEARWATER, Fla. - Amid the pitched legal battle over Terri Schiavo that has been fought through his court, Pinellas County Circuit Judge George Greer has been under the protection of armed guards, and friends say his family also is protected.

Death threats have been made against him for allowing Michael Schiavo to remove the feeding tube that has kept his 41-year-old wife alive for the past 15 years, and the Southern Baptist church that Greer belonged to for years has asked him to leave the congregation.

Greer — a conservative Christian and longtime Republican known for an easy manner — has become the public face of the judiciary in this internationally watched fight. But despite the mounting pressure, he has been steadfast in his rulings that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state and did not want to be kept alive artificially.

"There are very few people who have shown the will to stand up to raw power," said Stetson University Law Professor Michael Allen, who has studied the Schiavo case. "He's one."

"This is simply a case of people not liking this decision, and the fact that a judge is standing up to this is quite important," Allen added.

On Saturday, Greer rejected arguments by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, that their daughter tried to say "I want to live" before her feeding tube was removed March 18. They argued that she said "AHHHHH" and "WAAAAAAA" when asked to repeat the phrase.

Greer said that "all of the credible medical evidence this court has received over the last five years" suggests Schiavo's behavior is not a product of cognitive awareness. Doctors have said Schiavo's past utterances were involuntary moans consistent with someone in a vegetative state.

When informed of Greer's rejection, Bob Schindler reacted with somber sarcasm: "He did? Great surprise."

It was Greer who first ruled that Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state and would not want to be kept alive artificially. Three times he has ordered the feeding tube be removed, as requested by Michael Schiavo, and his rulings have consistently been upheld in appeals filed by the Schindlers.

Greer, 63, also stood up to congressional efforts to intervene in the case, rejecting an attempt by the House of Representatives to subpoena Terry Schiavo as a means to force the reinsertion of her feeding tube. Since then, other judges have followed in refusing to act under a newly crafted federal law allowing them to consider the case.

Greer, a former county commissioner, became a judge in 1992. He was recently re-elected to a six-year term, but has announced that he will retire once that term is up.

While in legal circles he is garnering acclaim for his consistent application of Florida law in the case, there has been a price.

Protesters now show up at his Clearwater home. The FBI (news - web sites) arrested a North Carolina man it said placed a $50,000 bounty on the head of a judge in the case, although officials didn't name the judge.

This past week, he parted ways with his Southern Baptist church, which had advocated keeping Terri Schiavo alive, after his pastor suggested it would be better if he left.

"You must know that in all likelihood it is this case which will define your career and this case that you will remember in the waning days of life," Calvary Baptist Pastor William Rice wrote to Greer in a letter than later became public. "I hope you can find a way to side with the angels and become an answer to the prayers of thousands."

Greer could not be reached for comment because of the frequent hearings on the Schiavo case, but longtime friend Mary Repper said she recently spoke with him and he sounds "worn out" by the case that has been on his docket for more than seven years.

"It's been going on so long and it's reached its fevered pitch," Repper said. "It's gotten so angry and so hostile, but he's still hanging in there."

Repper said Greer has taken comfort in being consistently upheld by higher courts, but his split with his church has been a blow.

"The people in that church should be ashamed of themselves, to demonize George and to ask him to leave for doing his job, for upholding the law," she said. "To me, that was the most offensive thing that has happened so far."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...d_woman_judge_1

[AUloggerhead 2,252]

Isn't that Baptist church allowed to choose its own members? And just to put this whole thing in perspective, that Baptist church is not disavowing the judge becaues he is supposedly conservative or because of his party affiliation -- they are asking him to not return because of his ruling. Apparently, this Baptist church doesn't agree with his Solomon-like judgement that Teri Schiavo should have a death sentence carried out on her through the process of forced dehydration. Go figure.

[TexasTiger 13,005]

Isn't that Baptist church allowed to choose its own members?  And just to put this whole thing in perspective, that Baptist church is not disavowing the judge becaues he is supposedly conservative or because of his party affiliation -- they are asking him to not return because of his ruling.  Apparently, this Baptist church doesn't agree with his Solomon-like judgement that Teri Schiavo should have a death sentence carried out on her through the process of forced dehydration.  Go figure.

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Can that particular "church" choose its members? Sure. Congregations split all the time over membership. Ever known of a church that split because a person of another race tried to join it?

But no one has overturned this judge because he is applying the law as it stands. Isn't that what "conservatives" want? Judges who enorce law, not create it based on their personal beliefs? Now Solomon-like is an insult? As a former "conservative" I must say that the "conservative" movement is changing so fast I just can't keep up.

[AUloggerhead 2,252]

Can that particular "church" choose its members?  Sure.  Congregations split all the time over membership.  Ever known of a church that split because a person of another race tried to join it?

No, can't say that I have. I'm not sure what race has to do with this situation, though. The disagreement is over ethics & philosophy. I see nothing wrong with this Baptist church parting company with this individual over his ruling. To state the obvious: his ruling doesn't jibe with this church's beliefs.

But no one has overturned this judge because he is applying the law as it stands.  ...

That's debatable. The "law as it now stands" is a cop out excuse. As one of many examples, we have the Supreme Court's decision in the Dred Scott case as proof that the last word does not & should not always reside with a court's decision. As someone has said (I can't remember who,) "it's too bad that Teri Schiavo didn't commit a crime ... then the Governor could step in and commute her sentence."

Isn't that what "conservatives" want?  Judges who enorce law, not create it based on their personal beliefs?  Now Solomon-like is an insult? 

I consider myself a conservative but I do not presume to speak for all conservatives nor do I know of or participate in a national card-carrying conservative movement which is monolithic in its thoughts & actions. IMHO, I do want judges to adjudicate the cases before them within their purview and without crossing over into the making-up-legislation-where-there-is-none territory. I recognize the difficulty they have placed before them. FYI, I don't consider Greer's decision to be "Solomon-like." I phrased it that way as a satirical dig. I think his decision sets a horrific precedent.

... As a former "conservative" I must say that the "conservative" movement is changing so fast I just can't keep up.

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If you are now a former conservative, why on Earth should you care about "keeping up?" Am I missing something here?

[TexasTiger 13,005]

Can that particular "church" choose its members?  Sure.  Congregations split all the time over membership.  Ever known of a church that split because a person of another race tried to join it?

No, can't say that I have. I'm not sure what race has to do with this situation, though. The disagreement is over ethics & philosophy. I see nothing wrong with this Baptist church parting company with this individual over his ruling. To state the obvious: his ruling doesn't jibe with this church's beliefs.

But no one has overturned this judge because he is applying the law as it stands.  ...

That's debatable. The "law as it now stands" is a cop out excuse. As one of many examples, we have the Supreme Court's decision in the Dred Scott case as proof that the last word does not & should not always reside with a court's decision. As someone has said (I can't remember who,) "it's too bad that Teri Schiavo didn't commit a crime ... then the Governor could step in and commute her sentence."

Isn't that what "conservatives" want?  Judges who enorce law, not create it based on their personal beliefs?  Now Solomon-like is an insult? 

I consider myself a conservative but I do not presume to speak for all conservatives nor do I know of or participate in a national card-carrying conservative movement which is monolithic in its thoughts & actions. IMHO, I do want judges to adjudicate the cases before them within their purview and without crossing over into the making-up-legislation-where-there-is-none territory. I recognize the difficulty they have placed before them. FYI, I don't consider Greer's decision to be "Solomon-like." I phrased it that way as a satirical dig. I think his decision sets a horrific precedent.

... As a former "conservative" I must say that the "conservative" movement is changing so fast I just can't keep up.

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If you are now a former conservative, why on Earth should you care about "keeping up?" Am I missing something here?

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Sure, individual congregations can determine whom they wish to share the love of God with, and whom they wish to exclude from that fellowship. But there is no evidence that Judge Greer has changed his beliefs over the years and no evidence that he has challenged a single doctrine or precept. So his exclusion isn't because of his beliefs. It's because of his actions. He didn't do what they wanted. In 1960 many protestants were concerned that JFK would take direction from the Vatican. Now, some of those folks want officials to take direction from the local pastor. I'm sure there are fundamentalists in Iraq who will expect their judges to take direction from certain religious leaders, too, regardless of what their laws say. His pastor may view Greer's actions to be a "sin." And I guess that "church" can decide which sinners they wish to shun and which they choose to embrace. I don't know how Christ-like that makes their fellowship, however.

BTW, if Schiavo had committed a crime in Florida, unless it was a white-collar crime, Jebbie wouldn't be commuting it.

The law as it now stands is not a cop-out for one of the 23 or so judges that have heard this case. There has been ample time for grand-standing lawmakers to make some laws that are different. This judge's decisions have been reviewed by other judges numerous times. The thing is no one really wants to change the law. They just don't like the way this particular case was decided. Appellate judges are further away from the presentation of facts and only overturn factual decisions that are clearly erroneous. There are good reasons for that process though each of us may look at a case from a distance and conclude factual decisions "must've been wrong."

What are you missing? Just trying to understand what "conservative" means these days, since I hear the word proudly proclaimed so often. It obviously doesn't stand for smaller government anymore and it obviously doesn't stand for state's rights and it obviously doesn't stand against federal government intervention into state or private matters.

[AUloggerhead 2,252]

The law as it now stands says that a Living Will drawn up, signed & notarized when the person was of sound mind & body should be the deciding factor in cases such as these. Fact: no Living Will exists for Teri Schiavo. Judgement: Greer has taken verbal testimony from Michael Schiavo of allegedly hypothetical conversations he had with Teri Schiavo at a time when she was supposedly of sound mind & body, and has effectively equated this verbal testimony to act the same as a Living Will. Fact: Teri Schiavo had suffered from an eating disorder, bulimia. Judgement: alleged conversations Michael had with Teri regarding Living Will situations have been assumed to have occured with Teri being of sound mind & body. If suffering from bulimia means you are of sound mind & body, then possibly this may be a valid assumption. I think otherwise. Fact: Teri's immediate family members (parents & sibling) have offered to take all responsibility & care for her to keep her alive out of love for her. Michael is determined to have her die, out of .... love for her? Judgement: Greer has abrogated his ethical responsibility in this case and has ruled in favor of Michael. In effect, he has sentenced a helpless cripple to death by forced dehydration/starvation. She is not dying a natural death -- unless you think the Nazi concentration camp victims who died of starvation died a "natural death." She is dying from lack of nutrition/water enforced by an edict from the government. Like I said earlier -- this is a horrific precedent.

[Auburn85 432]

No church is perfect. Some Christians are hypocritical, but everytime the church does something that may be a little off from their usual stances, it gets blown up by the media.

I guess when the media thinks that a church thinks it's the end all be all, they tend to enjoy going after a church.

I guess the church is a target because they're supposed to be pure and perfect and when something questionable happens they pounce on it like stinch to s***

[TexasTiger 13,005]

The law as it now stands says that a Living Will drawn up, signed & notarized when the person was of sound mind & body should be the deciding factor in cases such as these.  Fact:  no Living Will exists for Teri Schiavo.  Judgement:  Greer has taken verbal testimony from Michael Schiavo of allegedly hypothetical conversations he had with Teri Schiavo at a time when she was supposedly of sound mind & body, and has effectively equated this verbal testimony to act the same as a Living Will.  Fact:  Teri Schiavo had suffered from an eating disorder, bulimia.  Judgement:  alleged conversations Michael had with Teri regarding Living Will situations have been assumed to have occured with Teri being of sound mind & body.  If suffering from bulimia means you are of sound mind & body, then possibly this may be a valid assumption.  I think otherwise.  Fact:  Teri's immediate family members (parents & sibling) have offered to take all responsibility & care for her to keep her alive out of love for her.  Michael is determined to have her die, out of .... love for her?  Judgement:  Greer has abrogated his ethical responsibility in this case and has ruled in favor of Michael.  In effect, he has sentenced a helpless cripple to death by forced dehydration/starvation.  She is not dying a natural death -- unless you think the Nazi concentration camp victims who died of starvation died a "natural death."  She is dying from lack of nutrition/water enforced by an edict from the government.  Like I said earlier -- this is a horrific precedent.

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Do you know what Florida law states when there is no written directive? Are you familiar with the Guardian Ad Litem's report?