Piglet 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 I got this from a book called "What's Wrong with the Christian Right", by Jan G. Linn. As you can guess from the title, a lot of the book is the usual pointing out bad stuff about the other side...but then it gets worthwhile when they talk about their own vision and what they'd be doing differently. I wish more of the books and commentators spent as much time sharing the positive things about their own side as they did tearing down everyone else. We declare before God and all humanity that as liberal Christians we are witnesses to the gospel of Jesus Christ.We therefore believe that being God's people doesn't mean we are the only people of God. We believe the Bible is a moral guide rather than a book of rules. We believe in life before death as well as after. We believe the many forms of diversity among people are to be celebrated rather than feared. We believe God blesses other nations as well as America. We believe working on behalf of peace, justice and compassion is the way of Jesus. We believe in telling all the truth we know without claiming to know all the truth there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaGrad03 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Would you mind expounding more on these two?... "We therefore believe that being God's people doesn't mean we are the only people of God." "We believe the Bible is a moral guide rather than a book of rules." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piglet 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 Would you mind expounding more on these two?..."We therefore believe that being God's people doesn't mean we are the only people of God." "We believe the Bible is a moral guide rather than a book of rules." 163295[/snapback] Mostly, these are an acknowledgement that we see through a glass darkly, and that God is bigger than any human understanding of God. Belonging to God is a choice we have made, but it is not one available only to us as liberal Christians. Paul said that all of the old Commandments were summed up into one Commandment: Love thy neighbor as thyself--love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law. The Bible is more than a rulebook of rigid commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaGrad03 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 I hear what you are saying...but I also know that it is a slippery slope when you begin to look at the bible merely as a "guide" and claim that you are a christian. Leaving the bible soely up to self interpretation often leads to moral justification for doing things you shouldnt. :See the episcopal church: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Al 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 :See the episcopal church: Couldn't you have also said "See any Protestant church?" One of the pillars of Martin Luther's Reformation, Sola Scriptura, was that every person could read the Bible and arrive at truth without the aid of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piglet 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 I hear what you are saying...but I also know that it is a slippery slope when you begin to look at the bible merely as a "guide" and claim that you are a christian.Leaving the bible soely up to self interpretation often leads to moral justification for doing things you shouldnt. 163345[/snapback] Oh, there's plenty of that going around. It is also possible to take a rigid line of scripture so as to justify doing something horrible, and claim you are a Christian, and there's plenty of that going around, too. If I'm really being picky, I'd take issue with calling the guide "mere". It is a GREAT guide, and greater than a "mere" list of inflexible rules. It's a guide to eternal life--present as well as future--and itself breathes life. Certain other dry approaches look to me to be close to dead. The "guide" approach--using Biblical principles as a compass--has, it seems to me, more in common with Steven Covey's "second habit"--beginning with the end in mind--than with the popular view of situational ethics. The number one principle in Christianity is love. That's in there, over and over. If you go through all the motions, follow the rituals, obey every rigid doctrine, and have not love, it's all worth nothing. Under liberal Christianity, making hard choices in an ambiguous world requires you to look to the principle, and do that which fosters love in the Christian sense. It also means looking to your conscience, really LOOKING to it. Seems to me, the slippery slope you refer to is when people substitute for Biblical principle the "principles" of expedience, the path of least resistance, or doing what they want to do without regard to actual moral principles. When willpower and integrity fail in the moment of decision, you're looking to something inside, but it ain't conscience, and you usually know it quite well. That's not behaving liberally, conservatively, or like a Christian--it's just acting without principle. It is possible to fool others about what you're really doing and why, but it is not possible to fool yourself totally, or God. You can choose your behavior. You cannot choose the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolinaTiger 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 what does celebrating diversity mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aucorner 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 what does celebrating diversity mean? 163391[/snapback] it means that you have a target on your back if you are white and your gender is male Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,426 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 So how does being a Liberal Christian work? Abortion is what? Drug use? Sex outside of Marriage? Lets just start there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaGrad03 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Thats kind of what I was gettin at David...I mean some things are left up to interpretation....but things like adultery and homosexuality...from a bibilical perspective, you cant twist that into anything other than how they are EXPLICITLY spelled out in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,426 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Thats kind of what I was gettin at David...I mean some things are left up to interpretation....but things like adultery and homosexuality...from a bibilical perspective, you cant twist that into anything other than how they are EXPLICITLY spelled out in the Bible. 163409[/snapback] Read this site: Universism from the Bham News a few weeks ago. The punchline is they believe that "There is no absolute truth." Even my kids in SS blew this to pieces. The idea that there is no absloute truth, is in and of itself an absloute truth. Therefore, the first thing these folks do is contradict the main cornerstone of their religion. What if there was a religion announcing no universal religious truth exists? The meaning of your existence is yours to determine.1 What if there was a religion generating respect among all humanity by making us equals in the most important questions we will ever face? 1 What if there was a religion uniting freethinkers, including atheists, deists, transcendentalists, pantheists and agnostics? 1 What if there was a religion with no prophet or holy book? 1 What if there was a religion announcing no moral authority exists, religious or secular? 1 What if there was a religion born in 2003 that instantly included millions of people on the planet - maybe even you? 1 Would it even be a religion? Yes. But it's unlike anything you've ever seen before. Welcome to the future of religion. Welcome to Universism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaGrad03 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Yeah...funny thing about all those bullet points...they're ALL absolute truths! What if there was a religion announcing no moral authority exists, religious or secular? That sounds like the definition of an absolute truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,426 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Yeah...funny thing about all those bullet points...they're ALL absolute truths!What if there was a religion announcing no moral authority exists, religious or secular? That sounds like the definition of an absolute truth. 163426[/snapback] BG, we need to go to dinner some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piglet 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 what does celebrating diversity mean? 163391[/snapback] It means maybe God doesn't want you to be afraid of people just because they're different from you. It means God is big enough to encompass all that He created, including the human family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piglet 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 So how does being a Liberal Christian work? Abortion is what? Drug use? Sex outside of Marriage? Lets just start there. 163404[/snapback] I would assume we're not supposed to do those things. And I don't. I'm not prepared to go from there to suggesting that, for example, Catholics who use alcohol in their communion rituals are gonna burn forever, nor a 16 year old girl who aborts after having been raped by her first cousin. Seems to me that those who get kicked around for minor behavioral infractions are in good company. See Luke 7:34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,426 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 So how does being a Liberal Christian work? Abortion is what? Drug use? Sex outside of Marriage? Lets just start there. 163404[/snapback] I would assume we're not supposed to do those things. And I don't. I'm not prepared to go from there to suggesting that, for example, Catholics who use alcohol in their communion rituals are gonna burn forever, nor a 16 year old girl who aborts after having been raped by her first cousin. Seems to me that those who get kicked around for minor behavioral infractions are in good company. See Luke 7:34. 163465[/snapback] Are you defining Abortion, Drugs, and adultery/fornication as minor? I'm not prepared to go from there to suggesting that, for example, Catholics who use alcohol in their communion rituals are gonna burn forever, nor a 16 year old girl who aborts after having been raped by her first cousin. Neither am I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaGrad03 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 I dont think you have to be a 'liberal christian' to accept someone because they are a minority...or whatever. Avoiding Prejudice, hatred, and bigotry are not a market cornered by 'liberal christians'. In the same respect...i can be accepting of someone (meaning i still love them as a person) who is homosexual...but i dont have to APPROVE of their lifestyle. I dont have to think its OKAY for them to live their life that way. And biblically, there is nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piglet 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 Seems to me that those who get kicked around for minor behavioral infractions are in good company. See Luke 7:34. 163465[/snapback] Are you defining Abortion, Drugs, and adultery/fornication as minor? 163475[/snapback] I dunno. Worse than alleged drunkenness, gluttony and consorting with known sinners? Actually, I wasn't thinking about adultery--"sex outside marriage" I took to mean sex without being married. None of that is up my alley, but I ain't about to point fingers at others is all I'm saying. Beam in one's own eye and all that. How's this for a moral absolute?--if doing it is going to increase the amount of love, happiness and well-being in the world, then it is right. If doing it is going to increase the amount of hatred, ignorance, sickness or other ills in the world, then it is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piglet 0 Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 I dont think you have to be a 'liberal christian' to accept someone because they are a minority...or whatever.Avoiding Prejudice, hatred, and bigotry are not a market cornered by 'liberal christians'. In the same respect...i can be accepting of someone (meaning i still love them as a person) who is homosexual...but i dont have to APPROVE of their lifestyle. I dont have to think its OKAY for them to live their life that way. And biblically, there is nothing wrong with that. 163481[/snapback] Well, GOOD. Seems to me, the whole point of the book I just read was about avoiding the kind of atmosphere where people claim to "corner the market" on virtue. I think we're on the same page about accepting and loving specimens of humanity without having to give approval to everything they do. Take bama fans, for instance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tigrinum Major Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 How's this for a moral absolute?--if doing it is going to increase the amount of love, happiness and well-being in the world, then it is right. If doing it is going to increase the amount of hatred, ignorance, sickness or other ills in the world, then it is wrong. 163483[/snapback] That sounds too much like, "If it feels good, do it." So, by your logic, and I call it yours because you posted it without crediting it to anyone else, if pointing out that a person is wrong in the eyes of God makes them hate you, it is better to just let that person die without knowing the full grace of God and spend an enternity apat from God? I know I did not like it when people would point out the fact that I was not saved to my face. That spread a little hatred at the time, but now I am thankful for every person that touched my life and eventually got me on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piglet 0 Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 How's this for a moral absolute?--if doing it is going to increase the amount of love, happiness and well-being in the world, then it is right. If doing it is going to increase the amount of hatred, ignorance, sickness or other ills in the world, then it is wrong. 163483[/snapback] That sounds too much like, "If it feels good, do it." So, by your logic, and I call it yours because you posted it without crediting it to anyone else, if pointing out that a person is wrong in the eyes of God makes them hate you, it is better to just let that person die without knowing the full grace of God and spend an enternity apat from God? I know I did not like it when people would point out the fact that I was not saved to my face. That spread a little hatred at the time, but now I am thankful for every person that touched my life and eventually got me on the right track. 163488[/snapback] "Doing whatever feels good"--does that add to the love, happiness and well-being in the world? "Just letting someone die without knowing the grace of God"--does that add to the love, happiness, and well-being in the world? Love, happiness and well-being are different from short-term sensations of pleasure. Though pleasure often does add to love, happiness and well-being, it often does not--and I expect it is those instances where it does not that give you the most trouble about pleasure-seeking as an ultimate good. And yeah, there's a lot of folks out there who DO go for pleasure-seeking and moral relativism, with predictable results. That ain't liberal christianity. On reflection, maybe I should point out that "the world" the way I mean it, means God's world as well as here on earth. Just in case you were worried about stuff that might increase good feelings here and now and decrease them in the hereafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,426 Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 Pig, you are not that far off from me in some stuff. I have watched others flush their lives down the toilet because no one had a sense of tough love with them. A nation of spoiled rotten brats that have never heard the word no, is that what anyone wants? I hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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