Threats to Democracy

[homersapien 11,388]

12 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

The counting did not stop despite your whining. Losing liberals got their wish. Every newspaper tv station and magazine that wanted to got to stick around and scrutinize chads. Gore never caught up, never led, lost legit. BTW, in Okaloosa county Bush had another 1500 votes that were tossed by democrats because they had Bush circle filled in and Bush written in on the write-in line. Democrats claimed overvotes and they could not determine the "will" of those voters. So they had them tossed. Solid.

The most hilarious part was that breathless liberal journalists were offended when they were unceremoniously kicked out of their hotels at the height of the drama because of the FL-FSU game in TLH.

Gotcha....... BS

I asked exactly when and how Gore attempted to "overthrow" the election.

What happened was legal cluster**** of judicial ruling from all sides and both sides were seeking advantage.  The big difference is the SCOTUS weighed in on  Bush's side. 

From Wikileaks:

"In a 5-4 per curiam decision, the Court ruled, strictly on equal protection grounds, that the recount be stopped. Specifically, the use of different standards of counting in different counties violated the Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. Constitution; the case had also been argued on the basis of Article II jurisdictional grounds, which found favor with only Justices Scalia, Clarence Thomas, and William Rehnquist. The Court then ruled as to a remedy, deciding against the remedy proposed by Justices Stephen Breyer and David Souter to send the case back to Florida to complete the recount using a uniform statewide standard before the scheduled December 18 meeting of Florida's electors in Tallahassee.^[2] Instead, the majority held that no alternative method could be established within the discretionary December 12 "safe harbor" deadline set by Title 3 of the United States Code (3 U.S.C.), § 5, which the Florida Supreme Court had stated that the Florida Legislature intended to meet.^[3] That deadline arrived two hours after the release of the Court's decision. The Court, stating that not meeting the "safe harbor" deadline would therefore violate the Florida Election Code, rejected an extension of the deadline.

The Supreme Court decision allowed the previous vote certification made by Florida Secretary of State, Katherine Harris, to stand for Bush, who thereby won Florida's 25 electoral votes. Florida's votes gave Bush, the Republican candidate, 271 electoral votes, one more than the 270 required to win the Electoral College. This meant the defeat of Democratic candidate Al Gore, who won 267 electoral votes but received 266, as a "faithless elector" from the District of Columbia abstained from voting. Media organizations later analyzed the ballots and found that, under specified criteria, the originally pursued recount of undervotes of several large counties would have confirmed a Bush victory, whereas a statewide recount would have revealed a Gore victory. Florida later retired the punch card voting machines that produced the ballots disputed in the case.^[4][5][6]"

I am not arguing Gore won.  I am arguing Gore did not try to "overthrow" or steal the election. He was acting no differently than Bush was, with the key difference being the SCOTU weighing in on Bush's side - for whatever reason.

Furthermore, Gore conceded the election well before the certification process which established Bush as president, unlike you know who.  (And how has that worked out for the country and our image as the world's foremost democracy?  How has it strengthened the cause of democracy worldwide?

There is no equivalence of what happened in 2000 to what happened in 2020.

It's laughable to imply there is.  But it's what I would expect from you, which is why I ignore most of your posts.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by homersapien

[jj3jordan 2,056]

4 hours ago, homersapien said:

Gotcha....... BS

I asked exactly when and how Gore attempted to "overthrow" the election.

What happened was legal cluster**** of judicial ruling from all sides and both sides were seeking advantage.  The big difference is the SCOTUS weighed in on  Bush's side. 

From Wikileaks:

"In a 5-4 per curiam decision, the Court ruled, strictly on equal protection grounds, that the recount be stopped. Specifically, the use of different standards of counting in different counties violated the Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. Constitution; the case had also been argued on the basis of Article II jurisdictional grounds, which found favor with only Justices Scalia, Clarence Thomas, and William Rehnquist. The Court then ruled as to a remedy, deciding against the remedy proposed by Justices Stephen Breyer and David Souter to send the case back to Florida to complete the recount using a uniform statewide standard before the scheduled December 18 meeting of Florida's electors in Tallahassee.^[2] Instead, the majority held that no alternative method could be established within the discretionary December 12 "safe harbor" deadline set by Title 3 of the United States Code (3 U.S.C.), § 5, which the Florida Supreme Court had stated that the Florida Legislature intended to meet.^[3] That deadline arrived two hours after the release of the Court's decision. The Court, stating that not meeting the "safe harbor" deadline would therefore violate the Florida Election Code, rejected an extension of the deadline.

The Supreme Court decision allowed the previous vote certification made by Florida Secretary of State, Katherine Harris, to stand for Bush, who thereby won Florida's 25 electoral votes. Florida's votes gave Bush, the Republican candidate, 271 electoral votes, one more than the 270 required to win the Electoral College. This meant the defeat of Democratic candidate Al Gore, who won 267 electoral votes but received 266, as a "faithless elector" from the District of Columbia abstained from voting. Media organizations later analyzed the ballots and found that, under specified criteria, the originally pursued recount of undervotes of several large counties would have confirmed a Bush victory, whereas a statewide recount would have revealed a Gore victory. Florida later retired the punch card voting machines that produced the ballots disputed in the case.^[4][5][6]"

I am not arguing Gore won.  I am arguing Gore did not try to "overthrow" or steal the election. He was acting no differently than Bush was, with the key difference being the SCOTU weighing in on Bush's side - for whatever reason.

Furthermore, Gore conceded the election well before the certification process which established Bush as president, unlike you know who.  (And how has that worked out for the country and our image as the world's foremost democracy?  How has it strengthened the cause of democracy worldwide?

There is no equivalence of what happened in 2000 to what happened in 2020.

It's laughable to imply there is.  But it's what I would expect from you, which is why I ignore most of your posts.

 

 

Not sure what "criteria" a media organization utilized to produce a gore victory. There was no way a full state recount would have done that. The large mostly blue counties and precincts were recounted ad nauseam with the same result each time.  

Trump contested the election in several states with lawsuits which for the most part were dismissed due to standing not merits.  You still have a fantasy that a few thousand raucous trump fans could actually take over the government because they walked around in the capital until dinner time. Nobody was going to let them take over anything. Even if the congress went home and did not certify the count on Jan 6 they would have reconvened on Jan 7th and completed the task. You are out of your mind if you believe a violent coup was imminent. I realize this has been your position throughout but you must have very limited understanding of our government, military, and coup operations.

Still waiting on ANY explanation for why vote tabulation and reporting on television stopped in all the swing states at approx. 10:30 pm and no updates were given until around 3:30 am wednesday morning at which time Biden began making massive gains, well outside the believable percentage rates. If that question were answered all these deniers would have no basis for denial. I have watched elections since '72 and never ever has this happened.  I know you say absolutely nothing unusual happened that night but I saw it live as you did and it was NOT normal election reporting.

As for 2000, remember that all Al had to do was carry his home state and he wins no question. 

[homersapien 11,388]

4 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Trump contested the election in several states with lawsuits which for the most part were dismissed due to standing not merits.

 

Cite one (1) case that presented credible evidence.  Just one.

All you've got is conspiracy rhetoric.

[jj3jordan 2,056]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Cite one (1) case that presented credible evidence.  Just one.

All you've got is conspiracy rhetoric.

When your case is dismissed on standing you do not get to present evidence.  Are you able to answer my question regarding election night?

[homersapien 11,388]

11 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

When your case is dismissed on standing you do not get to present evidence.  Are you able to answer my question regarding election night?

First you are wrong.  Many of the cases that were dismissed had lack of evidence cited as a reason for dismissal.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-courts-election/fact-check-courts-have-dismissed-multiple-lawsuits-of-alleged-electoral-fraud-presented-by-trump-campaign-idUSKBN2AF1G1

Fact check: Courts have dismissed multiple lawsuits of alleged electoral fraud presented by Trump campaign

Following President Joe Biden’s swearing in on Jan. 20, a Facebook post shared over 6,140 times has said: “Not one court has looked at the evidence and said that Biden legally won. Not one”. This is false: state and federal judges dismissed more than 50 lawsuits presented by then President Donald Trump and his allies challenging the election or its outcome.

The post, which can be seen  here  , perpetuates the false narrative that there was widespread voter fraud during the 2020 presidential election ( here ). U.S. election security officials have said the election was “the most secure in American history” ( here , here ).

In the early morning of Jan. 7, hours after Trump supporters stormed the Capitol, the U.S. Congress certified enough Electoral College votes for President Biden to declare him winner of the election ( here ).  

As reported by Reuters   here  , state and federal judges - some appointed by Trump - dismissed more than 50 lawsuits brought by Trump or his allies alleging election fraud and other irregularities.

Independent experts, governors and state election officials from both parties say there was no evidence of widespread fraud.

According to the Washington Post   here  , instead of alleging “widespread fraud or election-changing conspiracy” the lawsuits pushed by Trump’s team and allies focused on smaller complaints, which were largely dismissed by judges due to a lack of evidence. “The Republicans did not provide evidence to back up their assertions — just speculation, rumors or hearsay.”

On Nov 27, 2020 a federal appeals court rejected a Trump campaign proposal to block Biden from being declared the winner of Pennsylvania. ( here ). At the time, Stephanos Bibas, on behalf of the three-judge panel wrote: “Free, fair elections are the lifeblood of our democracy. Charges of unfairness are serious. But calling an election unfair does not make it so." It added: “Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here."

Similarly, on Dec. 12, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected a long-shot lawsuit by the state of Texas and backed by Trump, which sought to throw out voting results in four states ( here ). In a brief order, the justices said Texas did not have legal standing to bring the case. 

On Dec. 1, then-Attorney General William Barr said that the Justice Department had found no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the election, even as President Trump kept up his legal efforts to reverse his defeat ( here ). Two weeks later, Barr announced his resignation from the Trump administration ( here ).

Reuters Fact Check has debunked a series of similar false claims of election fraud. Some can be seen  here  ,   here  ,   here  ,  here  ,  here  .

VERDICT

False. Courts dismissed more than 50 lawsuits of alleged electoral fraud and irregularities presented by Trump and allies. U.S. election security officials have said the election was “the most secure in American history”.

 

And even if there was any evidence, surely by now, it would have been made public by those who obtained it, no?

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by homersapien

[Elephant Tipper 430]

On 11/3/2022 at 1:21 PM, homersapien said:

I call BS on your statement that "Gore attempted to circumvent Florida State law with 7 willing Democrat justices". 

At exactly what point in the process did Gore "attempt to overthrow the election"?

From my reading on the matter, if anyone "stole" that election it was Republican appointed justices at both the state and federal level, via their erroneous and partisan rulings concerning "staying" the Florida recount.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore

Finally, Gore conceded the election because a concession by the loser (after the legal process has been completed) is 1) in accordance with American democratic values to ensure a peaceful transition of power and to 2) demonstrate that tradition and value to the rest of the world as the world's preeminent democracy.  

Trump failed on all accounts to do that.

 

First, let's get something straight.  VP Gore conceded the election, then retracted his concession and then conceded a second time. If anyone has egg on his face for not conceding, it will forever be Al Gore because he looked like a dope.  Whether DJT conceded or not, he stood his ground and didn't vacillate.  He should have used the word "concede", but he didn't, and now people like you are all pissy about it, yet in his speech he still acknowledged the change in government with Biden ascending to the role of President.  With Hillary, she conceded the election but to this day she still declares DJT as an "illegitimate President".  Did she actually concede then ?  Both suffered extraordinary, unexpected losses.  I can't imagine the bitterness each had, but America moves on.  Next please !

The whole Florida manual recount would never have occurred unless VP Gore sued for the manual recount which was permitted by the Florida Supreme Court in a 4-3 decision.   All 7 Justices were appointed by Democrat Governors, Graham and Chiles.  In that narrow decision, 3 of those Democrat-appointed Justices said that Florida law did not allow for a manual recount. The U.S. Supreme Court, in a 7-2 decision (Ginsburg and Breyer (?), both Democrat-appointed Justices, joined the majority) stated that the Florida Supreme Court did not have the legal authority to order the manual recount.  Florida law did not allow for a manual recount, therefore, when the Florida Supreme Court ordered the manual recount they were, in effect, re-writing Florida Election law.  Can't do that and even Ginsburg and Breyer recognized such and consequently sided with the majority in that opinion.   Gore was attempting to do what Florida law did not permit, that is how he "attempted to overthrow the election."  Messy and crafty, but found ILLEGAL.

The "safe harbor" law, when electors are, by law, presented to the Congress, was December 12, 2000, which was the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December.  The date of presenting electors is determined by that or a similar formula.  Bush v. Gore was heard by the U.S. Supreme Court on December 11, 2000 and the electors had to be presented to the Congress in less than 24 hours.  What you refer to as the "staying" the recount was a 5-4 decision, split between Republican and Democrat-appointed Justices.  The majority believed that  another recount as originally conducted, which Florida law permitted (minus the hand recount), could not have been done in a timely manner to present the electors to the Congress, again,  in less than 24 hours.  The minority disagreed.   Democrats just want to keep an election running forever until they achieve the result wanted.

I had remembered that all 7 Florida Justices voted to allow the manual recount, but I read a bit and was surprised to learn that 3 of the Democrat-appointed Justices said that the manual recount was impermissible, ie., they voted against VP Gore.  Gore barely had support for his suit even among the Democrat-appointed Justices in the Florida Supreme Court and even less in the U.S. Supreme Court.

Democrats focus on just the Supreme Court 5-4 decision, and either are ignorant of, or disregard the 7-2 decision, which causes confusion for most.

I amend my statement from saying that Gore had 7 willing Democrat-appointed Justices to only 4 Justices.  Gomer, you can pick up your BS flag and clean up the little pile I left for you on your way out.💩💩💩

The best and shortest summary on the subject you can read here: Bush v. Gore | Summary, Decision, Significance, & Facts | Britannica

[jj3jordan 2,056]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

First you are wrong.  Many of the cases that were dismissed had lack of evidence cited as a reason for dismissal.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-courts-election/fact-check-courts-have-dismissed-multiple-lawsuits-of-alleged-electoral-fraud-presented-by-trump-campaign-idUSKBN2AF1G1

Fact check: Courts have dismissed multiple lawsuits of alleged electoral fraud presented by Trump campaign

Following President Joe Biden’s swearing in on Jan. 20, a Facebook post shared over 6,140 times has said: “Not one court has looked at the evidence and said that Biden legally won. Not one”. This is false: state and federal judges dismissed more than 50 lawsuits presented by then President Donald Trump and his allies challenging the election or its outcome.

The post, which can be seen  here  , perpetuates the false narrative that there was widespread voter fraud during the 2020 presidential election ( here ). U.S. election security officials have said the election was “the most secure in American history” ( here , here ).

In the early morning of Jan. 7, hours after Trump supporters stormed the Capitol, the U.S. Congress certified enough Electoral College votes for President Biden to declare him winner of the election ( here ).  

As reported by Reuters   here  , state and federal judges - some appointed by Trump - dismissed more than 50 lawsuits brought by Trump or his allies alleging election fraud and other irregularities.

Independent experts, governors and state election officials from both parties say there was no evidence of widespread fraud.

According to the Washington Post   here  , instead of alleging “widespread fraud or election-changing conspiracy” the lawsuits pushed by Trump’s team and allies focused on smaller complaints, which were largely dismissed by judges due to a lack of evidence. “The Republicans did not provide evidence to back up their assertions — just speculation, rumors or hearsay.”

On Nov 27, 2020 a federal appeals court rejected a Trump campaign proposal to block Biden from being declared the winner of Pennsylvania. ( here ). At the time, Stephanos Bibas, on behalf of the three-judge panel wrote: “Free, fair elections are the lifeblood of our democracy. Charges of unfairness are serious. But calling an election unfair does not make it so." It added: “Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here."

Similarly, on Dec. 12, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected a long-shot lawsuit by the state of Texas and backed by Trump, which sought to throw out voting results in four states ( here ). In a brief order, the justices said Texas did not have legal standing to bring the case. 

On Dec. 1, then-Attorney General William Barr said that the Justice Department had found no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the election, even as President Trump kept up his legal efforts to reverse his defeat ( here ). Two weeks later, Barr announced his resignation from the Trump administration ( here ).

Reuters Fact Check has debunked a series of similar false claims of election fraud. Some can be seen  here  ,   here  ,   here  ,  here  ,  here  .

VERDICT

False. Courts dismissed more than 50 lawsuits of alleged electoral fraud and irregularities presented by Trump and allies. U.S. election security officials have said the election was “the most secure in American history”.

 

And even if there was any evidence, surely by now, it would have been made public by those who obtained it, no?

 

Is that a no?