Five Years in Iraq

[arnaldoabru 11]

Reporter;"2/3's of Americans say it's not worth the fighting"

Vice President Dick Chaney:"So"

I would like to thank all of our military for their sacrifice,the wounded, the killed,the ones on their 2nd and 3rd tours.I hope they get to come home soon.America cares,too bad your Vice President does not.

We need a draft.

[GaCoach 0]

Reporter;"2/3's of Americans say it's not worth the fighting"

Vice President Dick Chaney:"So"

I would like to thank all of our military for their sacrifice,the wounded, the killed,the ones on their 2nd and 3rd tours.I hope they get to come home soon.America cares,too bad your Vice President does not.

We need a draft.

Let's just say that your initial quote is true, since you don't back this statement up w/ any references or links, the reason for it IMO would be our wonderful media. I caught the last couple of minutes of Glenn Beck's radio program this morning on WGST 640AM in Atlanta, and he talked about this topic. His comment was that there was specifically one day when media coverage of the war changed. It went from an average of 30 minutes of coverage per day to 4, yes FOUR minutes per day. And that day was when Gen. Petraeus stated in a press conference that the troop surge WAS WORKING. Of no, we can't report on good/positive news on the war in Iraq, it may make GWB look good.

[Auburn85 432]

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

[Tigermike 3,053]

We need a draft.

Of all the stupid disjointed things you have said on this board, this tops the cake. Not only does the American public not want a draft but neither does the military. The volunteers are doing a great job.

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

It would seem to me that he was correct. Foreign policy should not be dictated by opinion polls should it?

[Auburn85 432]

We need a draft.

Of all the stupid disjointed things you have said on this board, this tops the cake. Not only does the American public not want a draft but neither does the military. The volunteers are doing a great job.

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

It would seem to me that he was correct. Foreign policy should not be dictated by opinion polls should it?

you're right. it's shouldn't

[arnaldoabru 11]

We need a draft.

Of all the stupid disjointed things you have said on this board, this tops the cake. Not only does the American public not want a draft but neither does the military. The volunteers are doing a great job.

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

It would seem to me that he was correct. Foreign policy should not be dictated by opinion polls should it?

I'm sure the guys who have been over there on their 2nd or wrd tour would agree with you.Why not a draft.We had one for WWII and Vienam.We've been in Iraq longer than WWII.If Iraq is as big a threat to the U.S. as Dubba says it is I'm sure American mothers would have no problem with sending their sons and daughters over to help spread our democarcy.Young Americans would be lining up to go and relieve there brothers and sisters who are already over there.I'm sure the members of Congress and memebers of the Administration would feel a great sense of pride when there sons were drafted to go and finish the job their Daddy's helped begin.Mitt Romney comes to mind,I think he has 5 sons.I'm sure TigerMike already has his duffle bag packed........Or a draft might be the thing that ends this stupid war the quickest.

[Auburn85 432]

Reporter;"2/3's of Americans say it's not worth the fighting"

Vice President Dick Chaney:"So"

I would like to thank all of our military for their sacrifice,the wounded, the killed,the ones on their 2nd and 3rd tours.I hope they get to come home soon.America cares,too bad your Vice President does not.

We need a draft.

Let's just say that your initial quote is true, since you don't back this statement up w/ any references or links, the reason for it IMO would be our wonderful media. I caught the last couple of minutes of Glenn Beck's radio program this morning on WGST 640AM in Atlanta, and he talked about this topic. His comment was that there was specifically one day when media coverage of the war changed. It went from an average of 30 minutes of coverage per day to 4, yes FOUR minutes per day. And that day was when Gen. Petraeus stated in a press conference that the troop surge WAS WORKING. Of no, we can't report on good/positive news on the war in Iraq, it may make GWB look good.

i actually was flipping around and caught that part of his show on tv.

yeah, amazing how coverage isn't as intense. only reason i've heard of the decrease in coverage is because of the primaries.

plus, what i don't get, considering how intense the coverage was for so long, only 28% of people surveyed could give a fairly accurate count of casualties we've had in Iraq. Others thought there were fewer than 3k. others thought there were waaay more than 4k. News media can only do so much to inform us. the info is out there in several place. The access to information can't even be measured. people choose not to be informed.

and that's another thng, news media is relying too heavily on surveys and polls. now, they're expanding their polls and relying more and more on rhetorical situation polls.

[lukeduke 8]

We need a draft.

Of all the stupid disjointed things you have said on this board, this tops the cake. Not only does the American public not want a draft but neither does the military. The volunteers are doing a great job.

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

It would seem to me that he was correct. Foreign policy should not be dictated by opinion polls should it?

I'm sure the guys who have been over there on their 2nd or wrd tour would agree with you.Why not a draft.We had one for WWII and Vienam.We've been in Iraq longer than WWII.If Iraq is as big a threat to the U.S. as Dubba says it is I'm sure American mothers would have no problem with sending their sons and daughters over to help spread our democarcy.Young Americans would be lining up to go and relieve there brothers and sisters who are already over there.I'm sure the members of Congress and memebers of the Administration would feel a great sense of pride when there sons were drafted to go and finish the job their Daddy's helped begin.Mitt Romney comes to mind,I think he has 5 sons.I'm sure TigerMike already has his duffle bag packed........Or a draft might be the thing that ends this stupid war the quickest.

Cutting through the adjectives, the only need for a draft would be if there is a TROOP SHORTAGE. I personally know three people who have been to Iraq, came back home and REQUESTED to go back. My neighbor's unit was called up and the only regret he had was that he would miss his daughter's first Christmas, but still he went.

Now, for my opinion. Calling for a draft is borderline mentally challenged. Thinking that a draft would end the war is borderline vegetative state. If a draft was implemented, I fell pretty strongly that there would be two groups. There would be the men and women who would go, even if they don't want. There would also be the pantywaist liberals such as yourself who would cry foul and run for the hills, and then complain about why nothing is going right over there.

[arnaldoabru 11]

We need a draft.

Of all the stupid disjointed things you have said on this board, this tops the cake. Not only does the American public not want a draft but neither does the military. The volunteers are doing a great job.

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

It would seem to me that he was correct. Foreign policy should not be dictated by opinion polls should it?

I'm sure the guys who have been over there on their 2nd or wrd tour would agree with you.Why not a draft.We had one for WWII and Vienam.We've been in Iraq longer than WWII.If Iraq is as big a threat to the U.S. as Dubba says it is I'm sure American mothers would have no problem with sending their sons and daughters over to help spread our democarcy.Young Americans would be lining up to go and relieve there brothers and sisters who are already over there.I'm sure the members of Congress and memebers of the Administration would feel a great sense of pride when there sons were drafted to go and finish the job their Daddy's helped begin.Mitt Romney comes to mind,I think he has 5 sons.I'm sure TigerMike already has his duffle bag packed........Or a draft might be the thing that ends this stupid war the quickest.

Cutting through the adjectives, the only need for a draft would be if there is a TROOP SHORTAGE. I personally know three people who have been to Iraq, came back home and REQUESTED to go back. My neighbor's unit was called up and the only regret he had was that he would miss his daughter's first Christmas, but still he went.

Now, for my opinion. Calling for a draft is borderline mentally challenged. Thinking that a draft would end the war is borderline vegetative state. If a draft was implemented, I fell pretty strongly that there would be two groups. There would be the men and women who would go, even if they don't want. There would also be the pantywaist liberals such as yourself who would cry foul and run for the hills, and then complain about why nothing is going right over there.

You can call me a panny waist liberal all you want.I served in the United States Military with some time spent in time in the Middle East during Desert Shield.

[CCTAU 3,346]

We need a draft.

Of all the stupid disjointed things you have said on this board, this tops the cake. Not only does the American public not want a draft but neither does the military. The volunteers are doing a great job.

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

It would seem to me that he was correct. Foreign policy should not be dictated by opinion polls should it?

I'm sure the guys who have been over there on their 2nd or wrd tour would agree with you.Why not a draft.We had one for WWII and Vienam.We've been in Iraq longer than WWII.If Iraq is as big a threat to the U.S. as Dubba says it is I'm sure American mothers would have no problem with sending their sons and daughters over to help spread our democarcy.Young Americans would be lining up to go and relieve there brothers and sisters who are already over there.I'm sure the members of Congress and memebers of the Administration would feel a great sense of pride when there sons were drafted to go and finish the job their Daddy's helped begin.Mitt Romney comes to mind,I think he has 5 sons.I'm sure TigerMike already has his duffle bag packed........Or a draft might be the thing that ends this stupid war the quickest.

Cutting through the adjectives, the only need for a draft would be if there is a TROOP SHORTAGE. I personally know three people who have been to Iraq, came back home and REQUESTED to go back. My neighbor's unit was called up and the only regret he had was that he would miss his daughter's first Christmas, but still he went.

Now, for my opinion. Calling for a draft is borderline mentally challenged. Thinking that a draft would end the war is borderline vegetative state. If a draft was implemented, I fell pretty strongly that there would be two groups. There would be the men and women who would go, even if they don't want. There would also be the pantywaist liberals such as yourself who would cry foul and run for the hills, and then complain about why nothing is going right over there.

You can call me a panny waist liberal all you want.I served in the United States Military with some time spent in time in the Middle East during Desert Shield.

Were you proud to do it? Or did you bitch about it the whole time. From your posts, most of us would bet that you bitched. Thank you for your service. Too bad you didn't get to finish the job back then. We wouldn't be there now. You can thank the crooked as hell UN for that one.

But to call for a draft is idiotic. The ranks of soldiers now are the best in the world. They are there because it's what they do. It's their job. And they are DAMNED good at it. The libruls have since jumped ship. The guys that were in it for the school money have pretty much gotten out. Russia proved that a mandatory draft makes for a s***ty army. So please drop the draft nonsense.

[arnaldoabru 11]

We need a draft.

Of all the stupid disjointed things you have said on this board, this tops the cake. Not only does the American public not want a draft but neither does the military. The volunteers are doing a great job.

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

It would seem to me that he was correct. Foreign policy should not be dictated by opinion polls should it?

I'm sure the guys who have been over there on their 2nd or wrd tour would agree with you.Why not a draft.We had one for WWII and Vienam.We've been in Iraq longer than WWII.If Iraq is as big a threat to the U.S. as Dubba says it is I'm sure American mothers would have no problem with sending their sons and daughters over to help spread our democarcy.Young Americans would be lining up to go and relieve there brothers and sisters who are already over there.I'm sure the members of Congress and memebers of the Administration would feel a great sense of pride when there sons were drafted to go and finish the job their Daddy's helped begin.Mitt Romney comes to mind,I think he has 5 sons.I'm sure TigerMike already has his duffle bag packed........Or a draft might be the thing that ends this stupid war the quickest.

Cutting through the adjectives, the only need for a draft would be if there is a TROOP SHORTAGE. I personally know three people who have been to Iraq, came back home and REQUESTED to go back. My neighbor's unit was called up and the only regret he had was that he would miss his daughter's first Christmas, but still he went.

Now, for my opinion. Calling for a draft is borderline mentally challenged. Thinking that a draft would end the war is borderline vegetative state. If a draft was implemented, I fell pretty strongly that there would be two groups. There would be the men and women who would go, even if they don't want. There would also be the pantywaist liberals such as yourself who would cry foul and run for the hills, and then complain about why nothing is going right over there.

You can call me a panny waist liberal all you want.I served in the United States Military with some time spent in time in the Middle East during Desert Shield.

Were you proud to do it? Or did you bitch about it the whole time. From your posts, most of us would bet that you bitched. Thank you for your service. Too bad you didn't get to finish the job back then. We wouldn't be there now. You can thank the crooked as hell UN for that one.

But to call for a draft is idiotic. The ranks of soldiers now are the best in the world. They are there because it's what they do. It's their job. And they are DAMNED good at it. The libruls have since jumped ship. The guys that were in it for the school money have pretty much gotten out. Russia proved that a mandatory draft makes for a s***ty army. So please drop the draft nonsense.

I volunteered to go even though I knew my enlistment would run out while I was there.

[lukeduke 8]

We need a draft.

Of all the stupid disjointed things you have said on this board, this tops the cake. Not only does the American public not want a draft but neither does the military. The volunteers are doing a great job.

it is true he said "so"

then, he said something to the affect that our policies don't go by opinion polls or changes in opinion polls

It would seem to me that he was correct. Foreign policy should not be dictated by opinion polls should it?

I'm sure the guys who have been over there on their 2nd or wrd tour would agree with you.Why not a draft.We had one for WWII and Vienam.We've been in Iraq longer than WWII.If Iraq is as big a threat to the U.S. as Dubba says it is I'm sure American mothers would have no problem with sending their sons and daughters over to help spread our democarcy.Young Americans would be lining up to go and relieve there brothers and sisters who are already over there.I'm sure the members of Congress and memebers of the Administration would feel a great sense of pride when there sons were drafted to go and finish the job their Daddy's helped begin.Mitt Romney comes to mind,I think he has 5 sons.I'm sure TigerMike already has his duffle bag packed........Or a draft might be the thing that ends this stupid war the quickest.

Cutting through the adjectives, the only need for a draft would be if there is a TROOP SHORTAGE. I personally know three people who have been to Iraq, came back home and REQUESTED to go back. My neighbor's unit was called up and the only regret he had was that he would miss his daughter's first Christmas, but still he went.

Now, for my opinion. Calling for a draft is borderline mentally challenged. Thinking that a draft would end the war is borderline vegetative state. If a draft was implemented, I fell pretty strongly that there would be two groups. There would be the men and women who would go, even if they don't want. There would also be the pantywaist liberals such as yourself who would cry foul and run for the hills, and then complain about why nothing is going right over there.

You can call me a panny waist liberal all you want.I served in the United States Military with some time spent in time in the Middle East during Desert Shield.

Were you proud to do it? Or did you bitch about it the whole time. From your posts, most of us would bet that you bitched. Thank you for your service. Too bad you didn't get to finish the job back then. We wouldn't be there now. You can thank the crooked as hell UN for that one.

But to call for a draft is idiotic. The ranks of soldiers now are the best in the world. They are there because it's what they do. It's their job. And they are DAMNED good at it. The libruls have since jumped ship. The guys that were in it for the school money have pretty much gotten out. Russia proved that a mandatory draft makes for a s***ty army. So please drop the draft nonsense.

I volunteered to go even though I knew my enlistment would run out while I was there.

Since I made the comment, I will echo CCTAU's comment. Thank you for your service. Just like him, I still think the draft comment was an extremely dumb one. I still would like for you to explain your thoughts on how that would end the war.

[arnaldoabru 11]

Also CCTAU you can call it bitchin,but look up my post,I have never once said anything negative about our troops.

One of my good friends is a West Pointer,former helicopter pilot in Desert Storm.He says what is being told by buddies and classmates still in the Army is that we are about to have a terrible drain on the mid rank officers,who are getting out by the droves.Fed up with the whole Iraqi War.

[CCTAU 3,346]

Also CCTAU you can call it bitchin,but look up my post,I have never once said anything negative about our troops.

One of my good friends is a West Pointer,former helicopter pilot in Desert Storm.He says what is being told by buddies and classmates still in the Army is that we are about to have a terrible drain on the mid rank officers,who are getting out by the droves.Fed up with the whole Iraqi War.

They have been saying that for 2 years now. Yet my son's Captain is as ghung-ho as they come and is excited to even talk about the Army and to be in Afghanistan right now. So the "droves" may be a little more than normal attrition, but we have yet to see it. It is the same in every organization. There are those content with riding the pine. And then there are those excited about being in the game. For many years our armed forces have maintained the highest level of dedication and training. Do you not think that more mid rank officers are being created on the battlefield and not so much in the classroom. We will survive and have an even better trained military.

And NO, you did not say anything negative about the troops. You just bitched about them actually having to do their job. As a soldier, they know that it may come to war one day. They train to be the best at it. But when it comes time to do it, some see that it's a little different than just training. But that gives no man a right to bitch about them having to do their job. That is why some decide to get out. You do not need to stand up and be the voice of all those mistreated soldiers. They all have a choice.

[Tigermike 3,053]

Also CCTAU you can call it bitchin,but look up my post,I have never once said anything negative about our troops.

One of my good friends is a West Pointer,former helicopter pilot in Desert Storm.He says what is being told by buddies and classmates still in the Army is that we are about to have a terrible drain on the mid rank officers,who are getting out by the droves.Fed up with the whole Iraqi War.

There seems to be a little discrepancy in the facts and your statements. But hey, don't ever let something like facts get in the way of your rants.

We do have several Army officers who post here from time to time, maybe they could or would provide some insight.

U.S. Army Isn't Broken After All, Military Experts Say

Wednesday, March 19, 2008

By Jennifer Griffin

WASHINGTON, D.C. - One year ago, as President Bush decided to send more troops to Iraq, the conventional wisdom in Washington among opponents of the war was that the U.S. Army was on the verge of breaking.

In December 2006 former Secretary of State and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell warned, "The active Army is about broken."

Ret. Gen. Barry McCaffrey, in a much-cited memo to West Point colleagues, wrote: "My bottom line is that the Army is unraveling, and if we don’t expend significant national energy to reverse that trend, sometime in the next two years we will break the Army just like we did during Vietnam."

Army Maj. Gen. Bob Scales, the former head of the Army War College, agreed. He wrote in an editorial in the Washington Times on March 30:

"If you haven't heard the news, I'm afraid your Army is broken, a victim of too many missions for too few soldiers for too long. ... Today, anecdotal evidence of collapse is all around."

But now, one year later, Scales has done an about-face. He says that he was wrong. Despite all the predictions of imminent collapse, the U.S. Army and the combat brigades have proven to be surprisingly resilient.

According to Army statistics obtained exclusively by FOX News, 70 percent of soldiers eligible to re-enlist in 2006 did so — a re-enlistment rate higher than before Sept. 11, 2001. For the past 10 years, the enlisted retention rates of the Army have exceeded 100 percent. As of last Nov. 13, Army re-enlistment was 137 percent of its stated goal.

Click here to see U.S. Army statistics obtained exclusively by FOX News (Chart A).

link

Scales, a FOX News contributor, said he based his assessment last year "on the statistics that showed a high attrition among enlisted soldiers, officers who were leaving the service early, and a decline in the quality of enlistments," a reference to the rising number of waivers given for "moral defects" such as drug use and lowered educational requirements.

"In fact, what we've seen over the last year is that the Army retention rates are pretty high, that re-enlistments, for instance, particularly re-enlistments in Iraq and Afghanistan, remain very high," Scales said. He noted that re-enlistments were high even among troops who have served multiple tours.

A year ago, some military experts were comparing the Army of 2007 with the army of a generation ago, at the end of the Vietnam War, when it was considered "broken" due to morale problems and an exodus of the "best and the brightest" soldiers from service.

Click here to see U.S. Army statistics obtained exclusively by FOX News (Chart 1).

link

Scales said he didn’t take into account that, unlike Vietnam, this Army is sending soldiers to fight as a unit — not as individuals. He also neglected the "Band of Brothers" phenomenon — the feeling of responsibility to fellow soldiers that prompts members of service to re-enlist.

"The soldiers go back to the theater of war as units," Scales said. "They are bonded together, they know each other, they don't have to fight as an army of strangers.

"I was wrong a year ago when I forecast the imminent collapse of the Army. I relied a little bit too much on the data and not enough on the intangibles."

Not all the military analysts who made similar predictions last year agree. Lawrence Korb, who worked on personnel issues during the Reagan administration, testified to Congress last July: "As Gen. Barry McCaffrey pointed out when we testified together before the Senate Armed Services Committee in April, ‘the ground combat capability of the U.S. armed forces is shot.'"

Korb, a resident scholar at the left-leaning Center for American Progress, told FOX News the Army is worse off than it was a year ago. He suggested that the Army is not being honest with its re-enlistment and retention numbers, an accusation echoed by House Armed Services Committee Chairman Ike Skelton, D-Mo.

The Army’s use of stop-loss — the automatic re-enlistment of soldiers whose units are being redeployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, even if their service time is up — has distorted the figures, Korb said.

He also said that while the numbers of captains leaving the military may not be alarming, the number of captains educated at West Point is. According to Korb, half of the eligible captains from West Point’s class of 2002 have left the service.

And then there are the re-enlistment bonuses, which rose from $50 million in 1998 to $562 million per year in 2007. The amount of re-enlistment bonuses paid is now five times what it was at the start of the Iraq war, according to U.S. Army figures.

Click here to see U.S. Army statistics obtained exclusively by FOX News (Chart 9).

link

But Scales says the desertion by mid-grade officers — captains and majors — just hasn’t occurred as predicted.

"The Army's collapse after Vietnam was presaged by a desertion of mid-grade officers (captains) and non-commissioned officers," Scales wrote a year ago. "Many were killed or wounded. Most left because they and their families were tired and didn't want to serve in units unprepared for war....

"If we lose our sergeants and captains, the Army breaks again. It's just that simple. That's why these soldiers are still the canaries in the readiness coal-mine. And, again, if you look closely, you will see that these canaries are fleeing their cages in frightening numbers."

But an internal Army document prepared at the request of Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey and obtained by FOX News suggests that the comparison to the "hollow Army" of 1972 near the end of the Vietnam War is inappropriate.

The main reason: Today's Army is an all-volunteer force, and the Army in Vietnam largely was composed of draftees.

Captain losses have remained steady at about 11 percent since 1990, and the loss of majors has been unchanged at about 6 percent.

Click here to see U.S. Army statistics obtained exclusively by FOX News (Chart 4).

link

"To date, the data do not show heightened levels of junior officer departures that can be tied directly to multiple rotations in Afghanistan or Iraq," the internal Army memo concludes.

The key difference between now and Vietnam, Scales explains, is: "this idea that soldiers fight as part of a team. It’s the ‘Band of Brothers’ approach to combat that makes armies effective in wartime, and the Army has been wise enough over the past five years to work very hard to keep soldiers together in units and not to treat soldiers as sort of replacement parts, but to keep them together as cohesive units. ... I believe, is the glue that has really served to hold this army together.”

link

[arnaldoabru 11]

Also CCTAU you can call it bitchin,but look up my post,I have never once said anything negative about our troops.

One of my good friends is a West Pointer,former helicopter pilot in Desert Storm.He says what is being told by buddies and classmates still in the Army is that we are about to have a terrible drain on the mid rank officers,who are getting out by the droves.Fed up with the whole Iraqi War.

They have been saying that for 2 years now. Yet my son's Captain is as ghung-ho as they come and is excited to even talk about the Army and to be in Afghanistan right now. So the "droves" may be a little more than normal attrition, but we have yet to see it. It is the same in every organization. There are those content with riding the pine. And then there are those excited about being in the game. For many years our armed forces have maintained the highest level of dedication and training. Do you not think that more mid rank officers are being created on the battlefield and not so much in the classroom. We will survive and have an even better trained military.

And NO, you did not say anything negative about the troops. You just bitched about them actually having to do their job. As a soldier, they know that it may come to war one day. They train to be the best at it. But when it comes time to do it, some see that it's a little different than just training. But that gives no man a right to bitch about them having to do their job. That is why some decide to get out. You do not need to stand up and be the voice of all those mistreated soldiers. They all have a choice.

I son't bitch about them having to do their job.I was once one of them.I bitch about our political leaders who did not serve in the military so carelessly putting our soldiers in a harms way,with little understanding of the dynamics of the the region,poor planning, and the shifting reasons for being there.

Our military did their job.The defeated the Iraqi military and brought down Sadaam.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

Well, McCain should understand, but he's going to keep them over there and Haliburton will continue to make a fortune off of the taxpayer; Blackwater will continue to piss of the Muslim nations while we'll pay the price here at home in form of higher prices for everything and high income taxes, real high. We're looking at a 60% tax bracket for the middle class to pay for all of the social programs alone. 90-95% tax bracket for the upper classes and 25% for lower classes. That's is if we keep on the present course regardless of who gets elected. Inflation will eat up the rest of the money though many will wish to save. Savings will be a thing of the past (it already is) and the administration will keep telling everyone to spend. Those who don't play their game will be singled out and sent to the Gulag. Just watch and see.