Political Reality in 2019...

[homersapien 11,370]

Just now, NorthGATiger said:

By population in a non socialist or communist landscape yes I do.  

Got any data on that?

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Got any data on that?

Got any that shows otherwise.  We are the third highest populated country in the world.  A population of people living free to do as they choose on a daily basis.  Freedom, money, and the ability to eat without having to provide has created a population from all walks of life that can wake up and do as they wish every day of their lives.  You don't have that freedom everywhere else.  You also don't have the ingrained sense of entitlement in other countries like you have here where a large population feels that they are owed something.  Yes I think the crime rate by population is as high or higher here than anywhere in a non socialist or communist government. 

[homersapien 11,370]

2 minutes ago, NorthGATiger said:

Got any that shows otherwise.  We are the third highest populated country in the world.  A population of people living free to do as they choose on a daily basis.  Freedom, money, and the ability to eat without having to provide has created a population from all walks of life that can wake up and do as they wish every day of their lives.  You don't have that freedom everywhere else.  You also don't have the ingrained sense of entitlement in other countries like you have here where a large population feels that they are owed something.  Yes I think the crime rate by population is as high or higher here than anywhere in a non socialist or communist government. 

Crime rates are measured on a per-capita basis.  By definition. 

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

Oceania

 

Rank	Country	Crime Index	Safety Index
1	Venezuela	83.23	16.77
2	Papua New Guinea	79.88	20.12
3	Honduras	76.84	23.16
4	South Africa	76.80	23.20
5	Afghanistan	76.63	23.37
6	Trinidad And Tobago	74.04	25.96
7	Brazil	70.24	29.76
8	Namibia	68.66	31.34
9	El Salvador	68.08	31.92
10	Kazakhstan	66.51	33.49
11	Bangladesh	65.82	34.18
12	Puerto Rico	65.53	34.47
13	Peru	65.28	34.72
14	Jamaica	65.28	34.72
15	Nigeria	64.41	35.59
16	Syria	63.59	36.41
17	Argentina	62.55	37.45
18	Dominican Republic	61.35	38.65
19	Malaysia	60.79	39.21
20	Somalia	60.10	39.90
21	Mongolia	59.76	40.24
22	Libya	59.18	40.82
23	Tanzania	59.01	40.99
24	Costa Rica	56.05	43.95
25	Guatemala	55.92	44.08
26	Kenya	54.82	45.18
27	Maldives	53.29	46.71
28	Bolivia	53.29	46.71
29	Uganda	53.27	46.73
30	Mexico	52.30	47.70
31	Uruguay	52.01	47.99
32	Ghana	51.95	48.05
33	Zimbabwe	51.80	48.20
34	Cambodia	51.28	48.72
35	Colombia	51.26	48.74
36	Egypt	50.71	49.29
37	Morocco	50.24	49.76
38	Sweden	49.35	50.65
39	Iran	49.33	50.67
40	Ecuador	48.98	51.02
41	Ukraine	48.88	51.12
42	Vietnam	48.78	51.22
43	Algeria	48.33	51.67
44	Ethiopia	47.18	52.82
45	United States	47.13	52.87
46	Chile	46.81	53.19
47	Mauritius	46.81	53.19
48	Pakistan	46.73	53.27
49	Thailand	46.66	53.34
50	Panama	46.43	53.57
51	France	46.39	53.61
52	Indonesia	46.01	53.99
53	Iraq	45.56	54.44
54	China	45.46	54.54
55	Moldova	45.45	54.55
56	Italy	45.02	54.98
57	Ireland	44.52	55.48
58	Lebanon	44.27	55.73
59	Jordan	43.82	56.18
60	Bosnia And Herzegovina	43.79	56.21
61	Australia	42.76	57.24
62	United Kingdom	42.72	57.28
63	India	42.72	57.28
64	Belgium	42.46	57.54
65	Tunisia	42.29	57.71
66	Russia	41.93	58.07
67	Sri Lanka	41.03	58.97
68	Philippines	40.83	59.17
69	Montenegro	40.48	59.52
70	Turkey	40.38	59.62
71	Albania	40.30	59.70
72	Bulgaria	40.00	60.00
73	New Zealand	39.55	60.45
74	Canada	39.51	60.49
75	Macedonia	39.29	60.71
76	Greece	38.57	61.43
77	Serbia	37.27	62.73
78	Palestinian Territory	36.99	63.01
79	Latvia	36.77	63.23
80	Lithuania	36.51	63.49
81	Nepal	36.44	63.56
82	Norway	35.32	64.68
83	Hungary	35.17	64.83
84	Germany	34.51	65.49
85	South Korea	34.05	65.95
86	Kuwait	33.91	66.09
87	Malta	33.53	66.47
88	Bahrain	32.87	67.13
89	Spain	32.46	67.54
90	Israel	32.16	67.84
91	Portugal	32.13	67.87
92	Azerbaijan	31.67	68.33
93	Poland	30.09	69.91
94	Saudi Arabia	29.73	70.27
95	Slovakia	29.54	70.46
96	Cyprus	29.31	70.69
97	Luxembourg	29.07	70.93
98	Netherlands	28.57	71.43
99	Romania	27.84	72.16
100	Czech Republic	26.66	73.34
101	Croatia	24.69	75.31
102	Denmark	24.25	75.75
103	Belarus	23.53	76.47
104	Iceland	23.28	76.72
105	Oman	22.83	77.17
106	Finland	22.80	77.20
107	Slovenia	22.57	77.43
108	Armenia	22.00	78.00
109	Switzerland	21.50	78.50
110	Singapore	21.47	78.53
111	Austria	21.37	78.63
112	Estonia	20.80	79.20
113	Georgia	19.86	80.14
114	Hong Kong	19.32	80.68
115	Taiwan	17.38	82.62
116	United Arab Emirates	16.32	83.68
117	Japan	13.73	86.27
118	Qatar	13.26	86.74

 

 

Regarding incarceration rate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

In September 2013, the incarceration rate of the United States of America was the highest in the world, at 716 per 100,000 of the national population. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners.^[1] Corrections (which includes prisons, jails, probation, and parole) cost around $74 billion in 2007 according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics.^[2][3]

In 2016, the Prison Policy Initiative estimated that in the United States, about 2,298,300 people were incarcerated out of a population of 323.1 million. This means that 0.71% of the population was behind bars. Of those who were incarcerated, about 1,351,000 people were in state prison, 646,000 in local jails, 211,000 in federal prisons, 34,000 in youth correctional facilities, 33,000 in immigration detention camps, 14,000 in territorial prisons, 5,600 in civil commitment, 2,400 in Indian country jails, and 1,400 in United States military prisons.^[4]

 

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Crime rates are measured on a per-capita basis.  By definition. 

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

Oceania

 

Rank	Country	Crime Index	Safety Index
1	Venezuela	83.23	16.77
2	Papua New Guinea	79.88	20.12
3	Honduras	76.84	23.16
4	South Africa	76.80	23.20
5	Afghanistan	76.63	23.37
6	Trinidad And Tobago	74.04	25.96
7	Brazil	70.24	29.76
8	Namibia	68.66	31.34
9	El Salvador	68.08	31.92
10	Kazakhstan	66.51	33.49
11	Bangladesh	65.82	34.18
12	Puerto Rico	65.53	34.47
13	Peru	65.28	34.72
14	Jamaica	65.28	34.72
15	Nigeria	64.41	35.59
16	Syria	63.59	36.41
17	Argentina	62.55	37.45
18	Dominican Republic	61.35	38.65
19	Malaysia	60.79	39.21
20	Somalia	60.10	39.90
21	Mongolia	59.76	40.24
22	Libya	59.18	40.82
23	Tanzania	59.01	40.99
24	Costa Rica	56.05	43.95
25	Guatemala	55.92	44.08
26	Kenya	54.82	45.18
27	Maldives	53.29	46.71
28	Bolivia	53.29	46.71
29	Uganda	53.27	46.73
30	Mexico	52.30	47.70
31	Uruguay	52.01	47.99
32	Ghana	51.95	48.05
33	Zimbabwe	51.80	48.20
34	Cambodia	51.28	48.72
35	Colombia	51.26	48.74
36	Egypt	50.71	49.29
37	Morocco	50.24	49.76
38	Sweden	49.35	50.65
39	Iran	49.33	50.67
40	Ecuador	48.98	51.02
41	Ukraine	48.88	51.12
42	Vietnam	48.78	51.22
43	Algeria	48.33	51.67
44	Ethiopia	47.18	52.82
45	United States	47.13	52.87
46	Chile	46.81	53.19
47	Mauritius	46.81	53.19
48	Pakistan	46.73	53.27
49	Thailand	46.66	53.34
50	Panama	46.43	53.57
51	France	46.39	53.61
52	Indonesia	46.01	53.99
53	Iraq	45.56	54.44
54	China	45.46	54.54
55	Moldova	45.45	54.55
56	Italy	45.02	54.98
57	Ireland	44.52	55.48
58	Lebanon	44.27	55.73
59	Jordan	43.82	56.18
60	Bosnia And Herzegovina	43.79	56.21
61	Australia	42.76	57.24
62	United Kingdom	42.72	57.28
63	India	42.72	57.28
64	Belgium	42.46	57.54
65	Tunisia	42.29	57.71
66	Russia	41.93	58.07
67	Sri Lanka	41.03	58.97
68	Philippines	40.83	59.17
69	Montenegro	40.48	59.52
70	Turkey	40.38	59.62
71	Albania	40.30	59.70
72	Bulgaria	40.00	60.00
73	New Zealand	39.55	60.45
74	Canada	39.51	60.49
75	Macedonia	39.29	60.71
76	Greece	38.57	61.43
77	Serbia	37.27	62.73
78	Palestinian Territory	36.99	63.01
79	Latvia	36.77	63.23
80	Lithuania	36.51	63.49
81	Nepal	36.44	63.56
82	Norway	35.32	64.68
83	Hungary	35.17	64.83
84	Germany	34.51	65.49
85	South Korea	34.05	65.95
86	Kuwait	33.91	66.09
87	Malta	33.53	66.47
88	Bahrain	32.87	67.13
89	Spain	32.46	67.54
90	Israel	32.16	67.84
91	Portugal	32.13	67.87
92	Azerbaijan	31.67	68.33
93	Poland	30.09	69.91
94	Saudi Arabia	29.73	70.27
95	Slovakia	29.54	70.46
96	Cyprus	29.31	70.69
97	Luxembourg	29.07	70.93
98	Netherlands	28.57	71.43
99	Romania	27.84	72.16
100	Czech Republic	26.66	73.34
101	Croatia	24.69	75.31
102	Denmark	24.25	75.75
103	Belarus	23.53	76.47
104	Iceland	23.28	76.72
105	Oman	22.83	77.17
106	Finland	22.80	77.20
107	Slovenia	22.57	77.43
108	Armenia	22.00	78.00
109	Switzerland	21.50	78.50
110	Singapore	21.47	78.53
111	Austria	21.37	78.63
112	Estonia	20.80	79.20
113	Georgia	19.86	80.14
114	Hong Kong	19.32	80.68
115	Taiwan	17.38	82.62
116	United Arab Emirates	16.32	83.68
117	Japan	13.73	86.27
118	Qatar	13.26	86.74

 

 

Regarding incarceration rate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

In September 2013, the incarceration rate of the United States of America was the highest in the world, at 716 per 100,000 of the national population. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners.^[1] Corrections (which includes prisons, jails, probation, and parole) cost around $74 billion in 2007 according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics.^[2][3]

In 2016, the Prison Policy Initiative estimated that in the United States, about 2,298,300 people were incarcerated out of a population of 323.1 million. This means that 0.71% of the population was behind bars. Of those who were incarcerated, about 1,351,000 people were in state prison, 646,000 in local jails, 211,000 in federal prisons, 34,000 in youth correctional facilities, 33,000 in immigration detention camps, 14,000 in territorial prisons, 5,600 in civil commitment, 2,400 in Indian country jails, and 1,400 in United States military prisons.^[4]

 

Your list proves my point.

[alexava 6,973]

Small crimes and big crimes are not the same. Very few people are incarcerated for extended periods for small crimes. You hear about one or two and use that to push an agenda just like trump uses a few murderous immigrants to push a 50 billion dollar wall that will have minimal effect. People in prison need to be there. I don’t know anyone in prison for simple possession or use of drugs, not one. I know many people who have multiple drug possession arrests and never do any time once they bailed out of county jails. I know several who have multiple arrests and convictions for selling and trafficking who get long sentences then get out in months and still traffic drugs. I know them very well. I could post newspaper articles over a 8-12 year period with about six people getting busted REPEATEDLY. CONVICTED REPEATEDLY. And 5 of them are as free as I am right now. Live like kings and don’t work more than they do. The one still in prison is in for murder. He had a guy who owed him 10k killed by two guys who were addicts. 

we have a problem with lack of mental health funding that could take many people out of county jail and probably prison too. We have those people in jail who will never be convicted of any crimes but they are a threat to themselves and others so their families won’t bond them out and they get free babysitters in jail who are not equipped, trained or funded to treat them.

[alexava 6,973]

Have you folks that just want to forgive crime ever had anything stolen? I bet 75 % of theft is driven by drug addiction. Wait till your have a tractor or atv or have the outboard motor stolen off your boat or come in to a boat ramp from fishing to find your truck toolbox broken and cleaned out or your damn boat trailer gone. Better yet your truck been jacked up on concrete blocks and your tires and wheels stolen (damn spare included) then you might want to get tough on crimes especially drugs. At least quit referring to them as “victimless “.

the investigators will be straight up with you. They say they hope you have insurance because they rarely solve these crimes. When they do it’s because someone flips or they bust a meth lab or drug ring and there’s 4 wheelers and other stolen s***  everywhere. Wake the **** up.

[alexava 6,973]

If you get hung or have a limp chopped off for stealing that might free up some prison space. It might also reduce the drug market. 

[homersapien 11,370]

3 hours ago, NorthGATiger said:

Your list proves my point.

How so?

Our crime rate certainly doesn't explain the incarceration rate.  What do you see that I am missing?

[homersapien 11,370]

2 hours ago, alexava said:

Have you folks that just want to forgive crime ever had anything stolen? I bet 75 % of theft is driven by drug addiction. Wait till your have a tractor or atv or have the outboard motor stolen off your boat or come in to a boat ramp from fishing to find your truck toolbox broken and cleaned out or your damn boat trailer gone. Better yet your truck been jacked up on concrete blocks and your tires and wheels stolen (damn spare included) then you might want to get tough on crimes especially drugs. At least quit referring to them as “victimless “.

the investigators will be straight up with you. They say they hope you have insurance because they rarely solve these crimes. When they do it’s because someone flips or they bust a meth lab or drug ring and there’s 4 wheelers and other stolen s***  everywhere. Wake the **** up.

Two words: legalize drugs. 

You are collateral damage in the "war on drugs". Treat it as a medical problem instead of a crime problem.

After all, has incarceration solved the problem?

 

[alexava 6,973]

6 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Two words: legalize drugs. 

You are collateral damage in the "war on drugs". Treat it as a medical problem instead of a crime problem.

After all, has incarceration solved the problem?

 

You have a point but I don’t see how letting people have free run on cocain, heroin and especially meth would be beneficial to society. They still have to attain the means to purchase drugs whether it’s black market or CVS. Some of it is already legal. Opioids are as bad in some areas as the hard stuff. 

But you are correct this system ain’t working. But it’s not because there’s a bunch of good people behind bars. 

[homersapien 11,370]

15 minutes ago, alexava said:

You have a point but I don’t see how letting people have free run on cocain, heroin and especially meth would be beneficial to society. They still have to attain the means to purchase drugs whether it’s black market or CVS. Some of it is already legal. Opioids are as bad in some areas as the hard stuff. 

But you are correct this system ain’t working. But it’s not because there’s a bunch of good people behind bars. 

No one has said there are a bunch of "good" people behind bars.  But if the base problem is drug addiction, putting them behind bars ain't helping.

[alexava 6,973]

28 minutes ago, homersapien said:

No one has said there are a bunch of "good" people behind bars.  But if the base problem is drug addiction, putting them behind bars ain't helping.

We don’t know how bad it would be if we didn’t either. 

[DKW 86 7,419]

On 1/11/2019 at 3:10 PM, NorthGATiger said:

Crimes are crimes whether big or small.  Drug possession to simple criminal trespass are crimes that break the law.  People choose to do both and they know the consequences.  How are we as a society supposed to draw a line on which laws are ok to break and which ones are not? 

Wow, the rest of us arent like you Sir, Nope. We are just mere mortals that sometimes do stupid things, especially in our youth...

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

13 hours ago, homersapien said:

How so?

Our crime rate certainly doesn't explain the incarceration rate.  What do you see that I am missing?

Please take a look at what type of countries are above us and below us.  If you want to make comparisons with Mexico about crime rate and population have at it but as I said before that is not an apples to apples comparison.

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

13 hours ago, homersapien said:

Two words: legalize drugs. 

You are collateral damage in the "war on drugs". Treat it as a medical problem instead of a crime problem.

After all, has incarceration solved the problem?

 

Thats the spirit.  Lets all drop our standard of living and morals to meet the competence of the 20% of F'd up people in this country.  Drugs are sooooo goood you know.  Now I know why you are arguing with me here.

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

8 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Wow, the rest of us arent like Sir, Nope. We are just mere mortals that sometimes do stupid things, especially in our youth...

Being stupid is painful.  Learn from your youthful mistakes, grow up, and be a solid contributor to society. 

[homersapien 11,370]

2 hours ago, NorthGATiger said:

Thats the spirit.  Lets all drop our standard of living and morals to meet the competence of the 20% of F'd up people in this country.  Drugs are sooooo goood you know.  Now I know why you are arguing with me here.

Yeah, after all the "war on drugs" has been a total success.

[homersapien 11,370]

2 hours ago, NorthGATiger said:

Please take a look at what type of countries are above us and below us.  If you want to make comparisons with Mexico about crime rate and population have at it but as I said before that is not an apples to apples comparison.

The point I am making is we have a huge rate of incarceration compared to the rest of the world without the commensurate crime rate to justify it.  That's just fact.

Guess you aren't real big on following up reference articles on the topic.

Hell, start with Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

 

[DKW 86 7,419]

11 hours ago, NorthGATiger said:

Being stupid is painful.  Learn from your youthful mistakes, grow up, and be a solid contributor to society. 

What if the learning process, no matter how mild, includes a near-ruinous trip to jail?

[DKW 86 7,419]

There are two things going on here:

1) There are bad people doing bad things, committing criminal acts. They are true thieves, robbers, murderers, rapists, etc. They do Braking and Entering. They commit Assault and Battery.

2) We have people that get caught Being Human. We have all been there. We make bad decisions, especially in our youth and end up places we do not need to be. 

We need to re-examine our laws and make a conscious decision to go after Criminals and not Ruin the Humans. 

[DKW 86 7,419]

11 hours ago, NorthGATiger said:

Being stupid is painful.  Learn from your youthful mistakes, grow up, and be a solid contributor to society. 

 

I and many more did just that and avoided jail only by the grace of God i guess, unless you count that public intoxication charge that got me sober in 1990. But it didnt ruin me. Some are just like me, but due to any number of details they suddenly find themselves truly screwed up, in jail with a real record that follows them. There is no need to destroy people over Being Human. Unless you think we need to ruin all people...The real issue here maybe cultural. Maybe a YBM cant afford an attorney, or hasnt been taught when to employ one. Traffic Citations generally dont need an attorney. Other things might, and some just demand an attorney. You shouldnt be in jail, or be unemployable in the future because of a simple bad decision in our youth. The fact that I am talking more about YBM is just facing the truth. But some in America just dont care about others, especially YBMs.

 

[DKW 86 7,419]

On 1/11/2019 at 4:12 PM, NorthGATiger said:

Your list proves my point.

What the hell are you talking about. It most certainly does not. We are the 45th most Violent Country, yet house the highest percentage of the population. if anything this disproves your point in spades.

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

13 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

What if the learning process, no matter how mild, includes a near-ruinous trip to jail?

How many youthful offenders do you know that make a very small mistake and spend life altering time in jail?  The problem is that too many people like to decide for themselves what laws are okay to break.  If an 18 YO gets pulled over for DUI from drinking then he needs to spend a night in jail to learn a lesson.  Many of you think it is okay if that same kid is pulled over smoking pot and having it in his possession.  It's not ok.  It is an illegal drug until laws say otherwise.  The same people who are ok with the kid going to jail for drinking are up in arms about the kid going to jail for smoking pot.  It is ridiculous.  Don't break the law and you don't go to jail.  It is as simple as that.  Would the pro pot community be okay if 75% of kids also drove drunk?

[NorthGATiger 1,801]

13 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

 

I and many more did just that and avoided jail only by the grace of God i guess, unless you count that public intoxication charge that got me sober in 1990. But it didnt ruin me. Some are just like me, but due to any number of details they suddenly find themselves truly screwed up, in jail with a real record that follows them. There is no need to destroy people over Being Human. Unless you think we need to ruin all people...The real issue here maybe cultural. Maybe a YBM cant afford an attorney, or hasnt been taught when to employ one. Traffic Citations generally dont need an attorney. Other things might, and some just demand an attorney. You shouldnt be in jail, or be unemployable in the future because of a simple bad decision in our youth. The fact that I am talking more about YBM is just facing the truth. But some in America just dont care about others, especially YBMs.

 

I knew race would would find it's way into this.  Somehow it always does when there is conversation about breaking the law and our mean racist society enforcing the laws.  Breaking laws, making good decisions, and court appointed attorneys have nothing to do with what color your skin is.  I know, that is just too harsh of a stance.  Let's just make laws for certain people and not others.  Let's give certain people a break due to race.  Better yet, let's make pot legal and not test for it during job interviews and Pro sports because it isn't fair and racist to those who like to use it.  Let's lower our morality in society to the bottom so that the bottom can keep up with everyone else.  And we wonder why the world is passing us by.

[alexava 6,973]

10 minutes ago, NorthGATiger said:

How many youthful offenders do you know that make a very small mistake and spend life altering time in jail?  The problem is that too many people like to decide for themselves what laws are okay to break.  If an 18 YO gets pulled over for DUI from drinking then he needs to spend a night in jail to learn a lesson.  Many of you think it is okay if that same kid is pulled over smoking pot and having it in his possession.  It's not ok.  It is an illegal drug until laws say otherwise.  The same people who are ok with the kid going to jail for drinking are up in arms about the kid going to jail for smoking pot.  It is ridiculous.  Don't break the law and you don't go to jail.  It is as simple as that.  Would the pro pot community be okay if 75% of kids also drove drunk?

The answer to your first sentence is pretty much zero. The rest of your post I’m not following. 

Im tough on crime. I can give some slack on a mistake or two.