Play the season without fans at the stadium

[Mikey 16,578]

55 minutes ago, tbone4jc said:

Let's not go there. If you go there you are saying that the integrity of our medical field, Dr's, nurse's, hospice care workers, etc...and their oath to save lives has been compromised.  I refuse to believe that.

It's doctors and nurses that are saying deaths due to the virus are being overstated. "Check in with chest pains, die with a heart attack, test shows positive for the virus and it's being reported as a virus death".  I've seen that and similar from numerous media sources.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

12 hours ago, Mikey said:

It's doctors and nurses that are saying deaths due to the virus are being overstated. "Check in with chest pains, die with a heart attack, test shows positive for the virus and   it's being reported as a virus death".  I've seen that and similar from numerous media sources.

 Why would it not be considered a Covid death?   It has been known for months that Covid causes blood clotting and thickening.   That leads to heart attacks and strokes.  chest pain covid positive people would live a lot longer without covid. 

A few random nurses on facebook saying they are being pushed to inflate deaths due to corona.  Whats the end game?  who gains from that? 

 I see  A LOT  more of these....

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/ga-nurses-file-lawsuit-against-athens-hospital/85-69de7fcf-0959-45fa-bf25-61385230fe84

https://thehill.com/homenews/coronavirus-report/497324-fauci-real-coronavirus-death-toll-almost-certainly-higher-than

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-07-01/covid-19-deaths-in-the-u-s-may-be-28-higher-than-official-count-study-estimates

https://www.wrcbtv.com/story/42290495/covid19-cases-in-us-may-be-10-times-higher-than-reported-cdc-says

remember this? https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20200521/coronavirus-florida-democrats-accuse-desantis-of-coronavirus-data-cover-up

https://www.nbcnews.com./politics/politics-news/i-m-looking-truth-states-face-criticism-covid-19-data-n1202086

 

On a side note: blood clots from  catching covid is cheaper than Viagra  https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/coronavirus-patient-suffers-hours-long-18527050

 

[Mikey 16,578]

12 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

Why would it not be considered a Covid death? 

Because the virus didn't cause the death.

It may have been a factor in any given case, in other cases it may not have been. As long as there are significant numbers of medical professionals saying the numbers deaths due to the virus are being inflated there is reason to believe them.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

8 hours ago, Mikey said:

Because the virus didn't cause the death.

It may have been a factor in any given case, in other cases it may not have been. As long as there are significant numbers of medical professionals saying the numbers deaths due to the virus are being inflated there is reason to believe them.

But that is not how it works.  The virus causes  heart attacks/ strokes etc.   It is no the other way around.  With out the virus these people would have lived a lot longer.    Not many "experts" are saying the death rate is inflated, just politicians and people pushing the anti mask crap.   Almost every real health expert  and mosy doctors and nurses are saying the opposite.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/933243?nlid=136226_3901&src=wnl_newsalrt_200702_MSCPEDIT&uac=366415HX&impID=2444944&faf=1

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/05/13/854873605/fauci-says-u-s-death-toll-is-likely-higher-other-covid-stats-need-adjusting-too

I think the death rate is pretty accurate,  not over or under stated by much.  Probably a little low because of the 2-3 week lag of deaths behind the case numbers.  Some places are under counting,  some over counting  most likely cancelling each other out.

Again,  what is the end game of inflating the death rate?   Who gains from that and how?   It is just paranoid delusion and conspiracy theories. 

How low do you think the death rate really is? 

 

 

 

[Mikey 16,578]

1 hour ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

Again,  what is the end game of inflating the death rate?   Who gains from that and how?   It is just paranoid delusion and conspiracy theories. 

How low do you think the death rate really is? 

I have seen it stated that hospitals get federal money for each death certificate that lists the virus as the cause. Whether that's true or not, I cannot say.

I think the death rate is around .25 percent. That's 2&1/2 deaths per 1,000 positive cases. Given that roughly half of those happened in nursing homes early on and those can now be controlled, I think the current risk isn't worth shutting the world down to wait for some cure that might not ever happen. Let's lace up our boots and move ahead with everybody's lives.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

1 hour ago, Mikey said:

I have seen it stated that hospitals get federal money for each death certificate that lists the virus as the cause. Whether that's true or not, I cannot say.

I think the death rate is around .25 percent. That's 2&1/2 deaths per 1,000 positive cases. 

  So you are basing your conspiracy of over inflated death numbers on something you don't even know if it is true or not?

Who cares if half are in nursing homes.  They are still people.  

you have to resort to an extreme of "shutting down the world"  to try to make your point sound valid. .  No need for a shut down IF everyone that can follows protocols.   But,  we have too many a**hole spreaders and deniers to be responsible people,  so we are on the trajectory  toward another shutdown..

.25% How are you coming up with this number?   with 132,147 deaths already,  wouldn't that mean there would have to be 52,858,000 current cases.  50,000,000 more than we have documented?  We are not there yet,  but we ll get there if more people do not start taking this seriously and wear masks and keep distance. .  

Even a ridiculously low fraction of a percent (.25%)  of a very large number will be a large number.  Is that not  relevant to you?   how about you clip off .25% of your dick and see how relevant .25% is?     

 

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

2 hours ago, Mikey said:

I have seen it stated that hospitals get federal money for each death certificate that lists the virus as the cause. Whether that's true or not, I cannot say.

I think the death rate is around .25 percent. That's 2&1/2 deaths per 1,000 positive cases. Given that roughly half of those happened in nursing homes early on and those can now be controlled, I think the current risk isn't worth shutting the world down to wait for some cure that might not ever happen. Let's lace up our boots and move ahead with everybody's lives.

A couple of things here...

You "have seen it stated" but stated by whom and to what end? And what the hell makes you think that hospitals and other health care professionals would falsify such things? That's what they're being accused of. And ya know, falsifying cause of death is a crime. But on top of that, in many instances the cause of death is a complication of COVID-19.  When your lungs fill with fluid and you die from it. that's pneumonia. But if you presented with COVID-19 and developed pneumonia as a result and died, would you have hospitals and doctors list pneumonia as the cause of death?

Second., you can "think" what you want on the death rate. I see a lot of folks outsmarting themselves on this one.  They say crap like "A lot of people that get the virus don't get that sick or don't get sick at all. The death rate is just from the ones that get sick enough to get medical attention. It's no worse than the flu." Do I really need to explain the fundamental flaw here? For the hell of it, I will. See, a great many people that get the flu never get sick enough to seek medical attention either. They ride it out and they aren't part of any statistics that the death rate is derived from. So the death rate from the flu, just like the death rate from COVID-19, is derived from people who do get sick enough to seek medical attention. And guess what? That rate is around 1/10th of that of COVID-19.

In Alabama, the mortality rate for seniors age 65 and up is truly awful 1 in 9 of those people age 65 and over in Alabama who get this virus and who get sick enough to seek medical attention die from it. 1 in 9.  Think about that. 1 in 9.

Finally, take a listen to what these doctors and nurses are saying as COVID-19 cases are spiking in Texas...

 

[countoff 331]

1 hour ago, CleCoTiger said:

A couple of things here...

You "have seen it stated" but stated by whom and to what end? And what the hell makes you think that hospitals and other health care professionals would falsify such things? That's what they're being accused of. And ya know, falsifying cause of death is a crime. But on top of that, in many instances the cause of death is a complication of COVID-19.  When your lungs fill with fluid and you die from it. that's pneumonia. But if you presented with COVID-19 and developed pneumonia as a result and died, would you have hospitals and doctors list pneumonia as the cause of death?

Second., you can "think" what you want on the death rate. I see a lot of folks outsmarting themselves on this one.  They say crap like "A lot of people that get the virus don't get that sick or don't get sick at all. The death rate is just from the ones that get sick enough to get medical attention. It's no worse than the flu." Do I really need to explain the fundamental flaw here? For the hell of it, I will. See, a great many people that get the flu never get sick enough to seek medical attention either. They ride it out and they aren't part of any statistics that the death rate is derived from. So the death rate from the flu, just like the death rate from COVID-19, is derived from people who do get sick enough to seek medical attention. And guess what? That rate is around 1/10th of that of COVID-19.

In Alabama, the mortality rate for seniors age 65 and up is truly awful 1 in 9 of those people age 65 and over in Alabama who get this virus and who get sick enough to seek medical attention die from it. 1 in 9.  Think about that. 1 in 9.

Finally, take a listen to what these doctors and nurses are saying as COVID-19 cases are spiking in Texas...

 

Ooo Boy.  Please don't use anything from CNN to make a point.  It only takes the wind out of the sails of your argument.

I am reading your recent banter with Mikey with interest because I think both of you make some valid points.  As a father of two doctors, I am hearing from both of them what is happening on the front lines at two different hospitals.  A lot of numbers are being exaggerated by the media to suit political agendas.  However, there can be no argument that COVID-19 can have very serious/deadly symptoms on a significant portion of our population.  And it is very contagious. 

So like all the other "Hot" button topics going on, it seems people insist on lining up on the extremes.  Some want to completely shutdown our economy and others want to recklessly ignore the problem.  Jez people....just put on masks, use hand sanitizer, avoid crowds, and get on with your life.  It's not that complicated.

But since this is the football forum, I should probably say something football related.  I am beginning to lose confidence that either the NCAA or the individual schools are going to allow fans in the stands this football season.  And if this is the case, we should not allow the 19-22 year old players to expose themselves to the COVID during practice, games, locker rooms, etc.  Those young men may be willing and anxious to play because they think they are indestructible.  But we know that they are not.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

54 minutes ago, countoff said:

Ooo Boy.  Please don't use anything from CNN to make a point.  It only takes the wind out of the sails of your argument.

I am reading your recent banter with Mikey with interest because I think both of you make some valid points.  As a father of two doctors, I am hearing from both of them what is happening on the front lines at two different hospitals.  A lot of numbers are being exaggerated by the media to suit political agendas.  However, there can be no argument that COVID-19 can have very serious/deadly symptoms on a significant portion of our population.  And it is very contagious. 

So like all the other "Hot" button topics going on, it seems people insist on lining up on the extremes.  Some want to completely shutdown our economy and others want to recklessly ignore the problem.  Jez people....just put on masks, use hand sanitizer, avoid crowds, and get on with your life.  It's not that complicated.

But since this is the football forum, I should probably say something football related.  I am beginning to lose confidence that either the NCAA or the individual schools are going to allow fans in the stands this football season.  And if this is the case, we should not allow the 19-22 year old players to expose themselves to the COVID during practice, games, locker rooms, etc.  Those young men may be willing and anxious to play because they think they are indestructible.  But we know that they are not.

 CNN and most media are sucking right now,    but that doc ( at 4:15) is being honest and straight forward.   If you have ever been around someone who has be immersed in trauma you will recognize the emotion in his eyes.   Listen to his tone,  look at his demeanor.   He is exhausted,  in shock,  deeply saddened and feeling guilt from having to make choices on who to help, and who to send home to die. .  Powerless to stop people from spreading the virus.   It's the hardest job in america right now.

 

couldn't agree more with everything else you wrote. 

[DAG 33,980]

1 hour ago, countoff said:

Ooo Boy.  Please don't use anything from CNN to make a point.  It only takes the wind out of the sails of your argument.

I am reading your recent banter with Mikey with interest because I think both of you make some valid points.  As a father of two doctors, I am hearing from both of them what is happening on the front lines at two different hospitals.  A lot of numbers are being exaggerated by the media to suit political agendas.  However, there can be no argument that COVID-19 can have very serious/deadly symptoms on a significant portion of our population.  And it is very contagious. 

So like all the other "Hot" button topics going on, it seems people insist on lining up on the extremes.  Some want to completely shutdown our economy and others want to recklessly ignore the problem.  Jez people....just put on masks, use hand sanitizer, avoid crowds, and get on with your life.  It's not that complicated.

But since this is the football forum, I should probably say something football related.  I am beginning to lose confidence that either the NCAA or the individual schools are going to allow fans in the stands this football season.  And if this is the case, we should not allow the 19-22 year old players to expose themselves to the COVID during practice, games, locker rooms, etc.  Those young men may be willing and anxious to play because they think they are indestructible.  But we know that they are not.

I highly doubt there will be fans in the stands. Heck, depending on how the professional sports respond, I am not sure there will be a season tbh. I want to see how the NBA plays out. 

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

1 hour ago, countoff said:

Ooo Boy.  Please don't use anything from CNN to make a point.  It only takes the wind out of the sails of your argument.

 

I suggest you watch the video and listen to the doctors and nurses that are speaking. Disregarding a straight news report because it comes from CNN is the basic logical fallacy of ad hominem.  If you only watch, read or listen to sources you believe you are likely to agree with, well...do I need to explain why that's a hugely unintelligent thing to do?

[Mikey 16,578]

4 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

.25% How are you coming up with this number?

From a study by Stanford University researchers. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/20/stanford-researcher-says-coronavirus-isnt-as-fatal-as-we-thought-critics-say-hes-missing-the-point/

4 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

Even a ridiculously low fraction of a percent (.25%)  of a very large number will be a large number.  Is that not  relevant to you?   how about you clip off .25% of your dick and see how relevant .25% is? 

Yes it is relevant to me. A .25% death rate in the US, cut in half because of improved knowledge about nursing homes would equal 330 million population X 0.00125= 412 thousand deaths. A far cry from the three million we were told would happen, plus roughly 130,000 of these have already happened.

Cutting off 1/4 of 1% of anybody's dick might be a tiny bit painful but it would hardly be a difference maker. Don't you realize how tiny of a slice that would be? Not even a porn star would miss that little bit.

[AuburnArch13 185]

3 minutes ago, Mikey said:

From a study by Stanford University researchers. https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/20/stanford-researcher-says-coronavirus-isnt-as-fatal-as-we-thought-critics-say-hes-missing-the-point/

Yes it is relevant to me. A .25% death rate in the US, cut in half because of improved knowledge about nursing homes would equal 330 million population X 0.00125= 412 thousand deaths. A far cry from the three million we were told would happen, plus roughly 130,000 of these have already happened.

Cutting off 1/4 of 1% of anybody's dick might be a tiny bit painful but it would hardly be a difference maker. Don't you realize how tiny of a slice that would be? Not even a porn star would miss that little bit.

Jesus Christ, you are callous.

[Mikey 16,578]

3 minutes ago, AuburnArch13 said:

Jesus Christ, you are callous.

I feel for the millions who have lost their jobs and businesses because of the shutdown. The shutdown isn't preventing anyone from getting the virus anyway, at best it delays it. At one point, some 30 million Americans were out of work. The tragedy of those families far outnumbers the deaths. Now, neither one is a good situation but show me a painless solution to this? There isn't one so lets bite the bullet and move ahead.

[AuburnArch13 185]

16 hours ago, Mikey said:

Because the virus didn't cause the death.

It may have been a factor in any given case, in other cases it may not have been. As long as there are significant numbers of medical professionals saying the numbers deaths due to the virus are being inflated there is reason to believe them.

I have not seen any evidence am that a “significant” number of medical professionals are saying the number of COVID deaths are being inflated. 
 

It is true that getting a “precise” count of COVID deaths is difficult because of many of the reasons alluded to in this discussion. Often there are multiple factors in any given person’s cause of death, and sometimes there are red herrings. It is also true however that many COVID deaths are going unreported due to people dying at at home or away from a hospital and never being tested. So we have factors pulling the number in both directions, and the medical professionals doing the counting are using systems that have proven themselves to be highly “accurate” if not completely precise. 
 

We also have other ways of getting good estimates of high-casualty events, like war, famine, or pandemics, by looking at total death (from any cause) numbers. Because of the law of large numbers, the number of total death is the US in any given month is actually pretty stable. As is, roughly the same number of people die in February every year etc. we can use this data to measure the likely number of deaths in any given month during a mass-casualty event (like Covid 19) against what you would expect based on historical data. People have been doing this and the evidence from these analysis suggest that the number of COVID deaths being reported are likely an undercount rather than an over count because the increase in deaths this year over historical expectation is outpacing the reported number of COVID deaths. This also dispels the notion that these people would have just died from something else if not for COVID. If that were the case, there wouldn’t be more total deaths. 
 

This article does a good job of going into detail about the process of getting accurate cause of death estimates for events like this if you’re at all interested in increasing your mathematical literacy rather than merely continuing to dig your heels in on the opinion that a disease that has already killed more 130,000 Americans in the last 6 months, the vast majority of whom would still be alive if not for the disease, is not that big of a deal. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/28/us/coronavirus-death-toll-total.html

[countoff 331]

1 hour ago, CleCoTiger said:

I suggest you watch the video and listen to the doctors and nurses that are speaking. Disregarding a straight news report because it comes from CNN is the basic logical fallacy of ad hominem.  If you only watch, read or listen to sources you believe you are likely to agree with, well...do I need to explain why that's a hugely unintelligent thing to do?

I had already seen this video and an (almost) duplicate video on CBS news.  My point is that when you have made a well thought out argument, it is best to avoid diminishing it by attaching a video from a less than reputable news source. 

3 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

If you have ever been around someone who has be immersed in trauma you will recognize the emotion in his eyes.   Listen to his tone,  look at his demeanor.   He is exhausted,  in shock,  deeply saddened and feeling guilt from having to make choices on who to help, and who to send home to die. .  Powerless to stop people from spreading the virus.   It's the hardest job in america right now.

Well like I said...my daughters are doctors at two separate hospitals.  While they are not assigned to the COVID wards, they are interacting with them all the time.  And yes...my daughters are working 12-14 hour days.  Last month my older daughter was told she would be transferred into the COVID ward because they suspected two of the doctors had contracted COVID.  But it was later determined they had not contracted it.  So she didn't have to go...for now. 

So I'm witnessing first hand what the doctors are being subjected to

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

1 hour ago, countoff said:

I had already seen this video and an (almost) duplicate video on CBS news.  My point is that when you have made a well thought out argument, it is best to avoid diminishing it by attaching a video from a less than reputable news source. 

Well like I said...my daughters are doctors at two separate hospitals.  While they are not assigned to the COVID wards, they are interacting with them all the time.  And yes...my daughters are working 12-14 hour days.  Last month my older daughter was told she would be transferred into the COVID ward because they suspected two of the doctors had contracted COVID.  But it was later determined they had not contracted it.  So she didn't have to go...for now. 

So I'm witnessing first hand what the doctors are being subjected to

I understand.  and agree,  but  the information in that  CNN interview is important. Even if it comes from a less than credible source such as CNN.   It was not intended as a jab at you.   I was just pointing out that doctor was sincere.     Thank your daughters for doing what they are doing.  I know it may be one of the hardest things they will ever have to do. 

[nixtosanders94 2,180]

I’ve seen doctors who say this is all an overreaction...

I’ve seen doctors who say this is being under reported...

I’ve seen experts who say masks are useless...

I’ve seen experts who say masks are necessary...

I don’t know what to believe honestly but I know the death rate has plummeted since a peak in April and I know that at some point we have to find a way to move on and live with covid-19.  Even if a vaccine is created there is no guarantee it how effective it will be. We have flu vaccines and yet thousands still die of it every year.  There is no perfect solution here. 

 

All that said, I do not believe we will see college football this fall.  Not saying I agree with it but I don’t believe it will happen unfortunately.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

2 hours ago, Mikey said:

I feel for the millions who have lost their jobs and businesses because of the shutdown. The shutdown isn't preventing anyone from getting the virus anyway, at best it delays it. At one point, some 30 million Americans were out of work. The tragedy of those families far outnumbers the deaths. Now, neither one is a good situation but show me a painless solution to this? There isn't one so lets bite the bullet and move ahead.

Your depraved indifference to society and human life is disgusting.

Why are you still arguing against lock down?  we have  not been locked down in weeks?   

You are just stuck on this all or nothing kick.   We will only need to shut down again if people don't start social distancing ans wearing masks.   The most painless solution is what we are trying to do.  SOCIAL DISTANCE  and WEAR A MASK.  Businesses can open,   lives will be saved.   Follow the protocols and carry on.   How can you be so against that?

The economy will bounce back strong. BUT,  only when we have control of the virus.  If we do not get control soon,  our economy will sink to levels you have not even imagined.  opening up without controlling the virus will cause more damage than being shut down.  50 countries are now open to trade and travel.  all have left america out of their "trade pact".  More than that have either banned US travelers or implemented a 14 day quarantine for US  travelers.

Don't be an economic alarmist.

 

[CleCoTiger 1,957]

5 hours ago, countoff said:

I had already seen this video and an (almost) duplicate video on CBS news.  My point is that when you have made a well thought out argument, it is best to avoid diminishing it by attaching a video from a less than reputable news source. 

 

I don't agree that CNN's actual news reporting is less than reputable. I do however make a distinction between their news reporting and their commentary/opinion shows. That's the same for MSNBC and, to some extent, Fox (though the bulk of Fox these days seems to be commentary and opinion.) It's why I will link to straight news reporting at just about any major news outlet (with rare exception) but go out of my way to not link to talking heads with commentary/opinion.

[gr82be 14,423]

3 hours ago, Quietmaninthecorner said:

SOCIAL DISTANCE  and WEAR A MASK

Plain and simple truth. 

Nobody likes wearing them and I'm tired of hearing people talking about their right not to wear one. I don't care how hot or uncomfortable people think they are it's better than either of us getting sick. 

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" Spock 

[Gowebb11 9,314]

4 hours ago, nixtosanders94 said:

I’ve seen doctors who say this is all an overreaction...

I’ve seen doctors who say this is being under reported...

I’ve seen experts who say masks are useless...

I’ve seen experts who say masks are necessary...

I don’t know what to believe

I agree that it is hard to know who to believe. For anyone who thinks a mask is useless, do they prefer people sneeze at the dinner table without covering their mouth? That issue seems pretty cut and dried to me. The one thing I can’t get past is that nations who went into a hard lockdown early and social distanced and wore masks have flattened the curve. We went into a ‘sort of lockdown’ and our leaders flaunted enforcement of masks and distancing. Now we have a massive acceleration of the spread. 

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

3 hours ago, gr82be said:

Plain and simple truth. 

Nobody likes wearing them and I'm tired of hearing people talking about their right not to wear one. I don't care how hot or uncomfortable people think they are it's better than either of us getting sick. 

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" Spock 

Agree 1000%.

Wearing a mask is a lot more comfortable than being on a ventilator in the ICU......

[countoff 331]

11 hours ago, nixtosanders94 said:

I’ve seen doctors who say this is all an overreaction...

I’ve seen doctors who say this is being under reported...

I’ve seen experts who say masks are useless...

I’ve seen experts who say masks are necessary...

I don’t know what to believe honestly but I know the death rate has plummeted since a peak in April and I know that at some point we have to find a way to move on and live with covid-19.  Even if a vaccine is created there is no guarantee it how effective it will be. We have flu vaccines and yet thousands still die of it every year.  There is no perfect solution here. 

 

All that said, I do not believe we will see college football this fall.  Not saying I agree with it but I don’t believe it will happen unfortunately.

You did a much better job articulating what I am trying to say than I did.  And with fewer words.

[Quietmaninthecorner 1,945]

8 hours ago, gr82be said:

Plain and simple truth. 

Nobody likes wearing them and I'm tired of hearing people talking about their right not to wear one. I don't care how hot or uncomfortable people think they are it's better than either of us getting sick. 

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" Spock