GOP Sen. Mike Braun Says Interracial Marriage Should Be Left To The States

[I_M4_AU 7,811]

30 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

The Confederacy fought and died to preserve slavery...and that's just simply unforgivable

Au contrair on the unforgivable part;

On Dec.25, 1868, President Andrew Johnson issued a “Christmas Amnesty” proclamation pardoning Confederates for treason.

He wanted to end any bitterness between the North and the South.

Even though numerous Confederates soldiers had been pardoned in 1865, some high ranking officials were still in legal jeopardy.

https://medium.com/la-bibliothèque/the-day-u-s-president-andrew-johnson-granted-full-pardon-to-former-confederate-men-a751d7f7982b

How else do you think we remained the United States?  That was a tumultuous time and healing had to take place.  The act of slavery is abhorrent, but when things become accepted they are accepted as the norm and that is what slavery was in the world early in our history.  It took a great man to recognize this and stand for what was right at a huge cost in human life.

America has to remain United.

What do you purpose to do about your issue with southern people?  What would satisfy your hatred?

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Au contrair on the unforgivable part;

On Dec.25, 1868, President Andrew Johnson issued a “Christmas Amnesty” proclamation pardoning Confederates for treason.

He wanted to end any bitterness between the North and the South.

Even though numerous Confederates soldiers had been pardoned in 1865, some high ranking officials were still in legal jeopardy.

https://medium.com/la-bibliothèque/the-day-u-s-president-andrew-johnson-granted-full-pardon-to-former-confederate-men-a751d7f7982b

How else do you think we remained the United States?  That was a tumultuous time and healing had to take place.  The act of slavery is abhorrent, but when things become accepted they are accepted as the norm and that is what slavery was in the world early in our history.  It took a great man to recognize this and stand for what was right at a huge cost in human life.

America has to remain United.

 

 

Correct. That was part of reconstruction. 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

What do you purpose to do about your issue with southern people?  What would satisfy your hatred?

I have no issue with Southern people. 

In fact, I'm proud of my Southern roots and I wish to help the Southern US shed all the negative stereotypes and poor reputation it has around the world. 

Having so many Confederate apologists that want to frame the Civil War as a "Both sides were bad issue", and "The Confederacy was just protecting itself, and it's rights" when historical record clearly shows that the South was in the  wrong for what it was fighting for doesn't help anyone. 

Confederate heritage and southern heritage are two separate things. They aren't bound together in one package....you don't have to romanticize and memorialize the Confederacy in order to be a proud southerner...and in fact it's a disservice to all Southerners for people to do so. You aren't betraying your southern identity by acknowledging the Confederacy for what it was and what it fought for. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[I_M4_AU 7,811]

9 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

 

Correct. That was part of reconstruction. 

 

 

 

I have no issue with Southern people. 

In fact, I'm proud of my Southern roots and I wish to help the Southern US shed all the negative stereotypes and poor reputation it has around the world. 

Having so many Confederate apologists that want to frame the Civil War as a "Both sides were bad issue", and "The Confederacy was just protecting itself, and it's rights" when historical record clearly shows that the South was in the  wrong for what it was fighting for doesn't help anyone. 

Confederate heritage and southern heritage are two separate things. They aren't bound together in one package....you don't have to romanticize and memorialize the Confederacy in order to be a proud southerner...and in fact it's a disservice to all Southerners for people to do so. You aren't betraying your southern identity by acknowledging the Confederacy for what it was and what it fought for. 

The confederacy were defending states rights as their rallying point (more PC than defending slavery).  They were on the *wrong side of history*, but state’s rights are still at issue today.  Two examples that most are familiar with are legalizing marijuana and the *right* to abortion.  What is being taught in our public schools is another flash point as the teacher’s unions are teaching some interesting subjects that should not be taught IMO.

Do you need Southerners to admit what the Confederacy fought for?  

 

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

The confederacy were defending states rights as their rallying point (more PC than defending slavery).  They were on the *wrong side of history*, but state’s rights are still at issue today.  Two examples that most are familiar with are legalizing marijuana and the *right* to abortion.  What is being taught in our public schools is another flash point as the teacher’s unions are teaching some interesting subjects that should not be taught IMO.

 And then decades later many of those same states who fought for "states rights" to own human slaves wanted to fight for "states rights" to keep segregation in place and other equal rights initiatives.  More recently many wanted to preserve our "rights" to deny gay people marriages. 

The South doesn't have an amazing history when it comes to what "rights" it wants to preserve and fight for... 

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

Do you need Southerners to admit what the Confederacy fought for?  

 

 

Sure? It would be nice for people in the 21st Century to acknowledge historical fact and stop endlessly repeating "lost cause" propaganda about the noble and heroic confederacy. Especially when for so long Southerners have put up hundreds of statues and memorials, placed confederate flags all in their yards, vehicles, and clothing, and then try to frame the war in their minds and school history books as the South being the real victims. 

There is being "politically correct" as you put it and then there is just flat out trying to re-write history to change the narrative, which is what I'm against.

 

 

[jj3jordan 2,052]

3 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

Quote it. 

 

You also didn't answer the question of what makes you believe the Confederacy was started and the war fought over trade and trade rights and not primarily over slavery? 

Never said you did. My post said millions of people across the south. Not all. Never said all. You did say that there are conservatives ( racists) in other parts of the country. So the SoCal conservative is racist too.  You didn’t say all but you obviously meant all. Your rhetoric didn’t leave any doubt. You can read history about trade in the south too. Just don’t pick a source that is racist. Oh wait. That is probably the only sources you read.  It’s okay coffee. This is America and you can say whatever you want and I would never deny you that right. I will tell you when you are wrong. You can be as racist as you like also. Just don’t deny it when it is clearly true.

[I_M4_AU 7,811]

1 hour ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 And then decades later many of those same states who fought for "states rights" to own human slaves wanted to fight for "states rights" to keep segregation in place and other equal rights initiatives.  More recently many wanted to preserve our "rights" to deny gay people marriages. 

The South doesn't have an amazing history when it comes to what "rights" it wants to preserve and fight for... 

 

Sure? It would be nice for people in the 21st Century to acknowledge historical fact and stop endlessly repeating "lost cause" propaganda about the noble and heroic confederacy. Especially when for so long Southerners have put up hundreds of statues and memorials, placed confederate flags all in their yards, vehicles, and clothing, and then try to frame the war in their minds and school history books as the South being the real victims. 

There is being "politically correct" as you put it and then there is just flat out trying to re-write history to change the narrative, which is what I'm against.

 

 

You don’t think we have learned anything in those decades?  It is a slow process.  As the population evolves the *rights* also evolve.  Is the West any better at its history?  How about the North East?  We don’t hear a lot about their history?

It is generally agreed that African slaves first arrived in Massachusetts in the 1630's, and slavery was legally sanctioned in 1641. During the colonial era, numerous laws were passed regulating movement and marriage among slaves, and Massachusetts residents actively participated in the slave trade.

Here are some Northern States the were involved in slavery:

1641 Massachusetts is the first colony to legalize slavery. 

1643
The New England Confederation of Plymouth, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Haven adopts a fugitive slave law.

1650
Connecticut legalizes slavery. 

1652
Rhode Island passes laws restricting slavery and forbidding enslavement for more than 10 years. 

1652 Massachusetts requires all black and Indian servants to receive military training. 1662 Massachusetts reverses a ruling dating back to 1652 that allowed blacks to train in arms. New York, Connecticut, and New Hampshire pass similar laws restricting the bearing of arms. 1663 In Gloucester County, Virginia, the first documented slave rebellion in the colonies takes place.   1663 Maryland legalizes slavery.  1663 Charles II, King of England, gives the Carolinas to proprietors. Until the 1680s, most settlers in the region are small landowners from Barbados. 1664 New York and New Jersey legalize slavery.   1664 Maryland is the first colony to take legal action against marriages between white women and black men.  1664 The State of Maryland mandates lifelong servitude for all black slaves. New York, New Jersey, the Carolinas, and Virginia all pass similar laws.  1666 Maryland passes a fugitive slave law.  1667 Virginia declares that Christian baptism will not alter a person's status as a slave.  1668 New Jersey passes a fugitive slave law.  1670 The State of Virginia prohibits free blacks and Indians from keeping Christian (i.e. white) servants.  1674 New York declares that blacks who convert to Christianity after their enslavement will not be freed.        https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/slavery/timeline/1676.html How do they get a pass if slavery was unforgivable? The North saw the error of their ways and the South was forced to, but the end result was slavery is illegal. To the bolded part: I feel the same way about the 1619 Project, Howard Zinn and CRT.

Edited March 29, 2022 by I_M4_AU

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

1 hour ago, jj3jordan said:

Never said you did. My post said millions of people across the south. Not all. Never said all. You did say that there are conservatives ( racists) in other parts of the country. So the SoCal conservative is racist too.  You didn’t say all but you obviously meant all. Your rhetoric didn’t leave any doubt. You can read history about trade in the south too. Just don’t pick a source that is racist. Oh wait. That is probably the only sources you read.  It’s okay coffee. This is America and you can say whatever you want and I would never deny you that right. I will tell you when you are wrong. You can be as racist as you like also. Just don’t deny it when it is clearly true.

since you just like talking in circles and repeating the same things over and over again, I'll just repost what I provided on the other page. The Founders of the Confederacy would disagree with you that slavery wasn't a the primary reason for the civil war. 

The new [Confederate] Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. - Alexander Stephens - Vice President of the Confederacy- 1861

 

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. -Mississippi Declaration of Succession

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection. - South Carolina Declaration of Secession 

 

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property - Georgia Declaration of Succession

She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them? - Texas Declaration of Succession

 

[jj3jordan 2,052]

1 minute ago, CoffeeTiger said:

since you just like talking in circles and repeating the same things over and over again, I'll just repost what I provided on the other page. The Founders of the Confederacy would disagree with you that slavery wasn't a the primary reason for the civil war. 

The new [Confederate] Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. - Alexander Stephens - Vice President of the Confederacy- 1861

 

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. -Mississippi Declaration of Succession

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection. - South Carolina Declaration of Secession 

 

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property - Georgia Declaration of Succession

She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them? - Texas Declaration of Succession

 

This answers the question: What are the reasons given for succession?

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

6 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

This answers the question: What are the reasons given for succession?

Correct. Which is why I don't believe it is morally acceptable or decent to honor or celebrate the Confederacy, and why it's monuments need to be moved to  museums and confederate cemeteries, and not stuck in public parks and government buildings. 

 

 

 

 

 

[jj3jordan 2,052]

42 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Correct. Which is why I don't believe it is morally acceptable or decent to honor or celebrate the Confederacy, and why it's monuments need to be moved to  museums and confederate cemeteries, and not stuck in public parks and government buildings. 

 

 

 

 

 

That however is not the sole reason for the war. As much as you want to deny it, trade was a very big issue with the civil war.  What are you going to do? Cancel all of Washington and Jefferson? You gonna rename the capital after some black man and throw them a bone pretending to bring them up to your level? Would that be morally acceptable to you?

[McLoofus 35,182]

"succession" 

 

[SaltyTiger 7,795]

2 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Correct. Which is why I don't believe it is morally acceptable or decent to honor or celebrate the Confederacy, and why it's monuments need to be moved to  museums and confederate cemeteries, and not stuck in public parks and government buildings. 

 

 

 

 

 

What about public cemetery’s with confederate soldier gravesites? Pine Hill adjacent to our beloved University has the monument and all confederate soldiers that died in “Old Main” as it served hospital services in the war.

Should the monument be moved and graves exhumed? Should now Samford Hall with most of the bricks from Old Main be demolished?

Edited March 30, 2022 by SaltyTiger

[TexasTiger 12,852]

1 hour ago, SaltyTiger said:

What about public cemetery’s with confederate soldier gravesites? Pine Hill adjacent to our beloved University has the monument and all confederate soldiers that died in “Old Main” as it served hospital services in the war.

Should the monument be moved and graves exhumed? Should now Samford Hall with most of the bricks from Old Main be demolished?

I think we have enough purely gratuitous monuments to focus on without disturbing the dead.

[McLoofus 35,182]

9 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

I think we have enough purely gratuitous monuments to focus on without disturbing the dead.

Great response. 

I would only add that grave sites and statues inside of cemeteries are targeted and specific and you at least have to enter that cemetery with intention to see them. They do not amount to civic endorsement of the Confederacy, even if the cemetery is publicly maintained. IMO.

[SaltyTiger 7,795]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

Great response. 

It was a great response