Saban over recruited by 12 allready

[catch8185 4]

And how does Nick and Cam's early departure play into our scholarship situation?  (I know there are restrictions to how many you can sign, but would that not free up a spot for Frost as I saw that seemed to be a point of contention earlier?).

[Ronald McDonald 0]

This is a major issue at Alabama right now and when Chizik does indeed bring in his third straight full class we will have these problems as well. Every team has the problems as long as the coach is signing near the maximum amount of players every class.

[alexava 6,974]

i think we can easily bring in 25 this year. next year it will be a juggling act. i dont see chiz oversigning by 15 or 17 which is what saban is about to do now. this will be interesting, remember when saban went off in the news conference when asked how he was gonna manage this a couple years ago?

[AUoutsider 0]

This is a major issue at Alabama right now and when Chizik does indeed bring in his third straight full class we will have these problems as well. Every team has the problems as long as the coach is signing near the maximum amount of players every class.

You just said very concisely what it took me several paragraphs to say.

Oversigning is a hot button issue for me, but not for the normal reasons.  I don't like to see Auburn fans mocking Saban for something that so far Chizik is also doing (just not drawing as much attention to himself).  I am also annoyed when Georgia fans use oversigning by SEC West teams to justify all of their current problems and take their lack of oversigning as higher moral ground.

Here's the truth... getting rid of players can be a very good thing for a program.  It makes kids compete harder for their positions; it causes problem kids to be quickly removed and the kids who are on the fence about causing problems to stay on the good side of the fence out of fear;it rids the team of the influence of lazy players; it sets a tone that not making your grades will have serious consequences; and it increases the teams chances of finding true difference makers on the field.

Someone here also mentioned that if Chizik or Saban always signs the maximum number of recruits then there are that many fewer recruits for your competitors.  Think about the consequences of letting a 3* OT recruit like  Nick Fairley go to Ole Miss because we only signed 20 that year.  Signing full classes puts the maximum pressure on your rivals and lets you take more shots at uncovering the the next Fairley.

Some other thoughts on oversigning:

- For most SEC West teams oversigning is more about dealing with a less educated recruiting base than about "signing and cutting".  Auburn has historically oversigned because we had to take more academic risks to assure ourselves of having a full roster of athletically competitive athletes.  The Mississippi schools have the same problem.  Our pool of SEC ready athletes is smaller and more of them are on the fence academically than the Georgia or Texas pool of recruits.  So for most of the SEC West oversigning is a talent equalizer.  Not so much an advantage.

- Oversigning can eventually evolve into "signing and cutting" if a school recruits at a high level and outside their normal region.  See Bama and see Auburn in 2-3 years.

- New coaches who are competent will usually attempt to rebuild their roster as quickly as possible.  That means 25 new players a year.  That means oversigning until the roster is full of the new coaches recruits.  Chizik will have almost arrived at that point after the 2011 class, and most certainly after the 2012 class.  So for those of you that hate rampant oversigners I think Chizik should be given the benefit of the doubt until 2013.  He has a right to rebuild the team as quickly as he is able.

- Remember when everyone liked to talk about how few scholarship players we had in 2009 and how it was Tuberville's fault.  Well, it might be Tub's fault that he recruited so many troublemakers/academic risks, but it was Chizik who sent those kids packing to make room for the 2010 class.  We were under the 85 limit because we were getting ready for the huge 2010 recruting haul.

- I don't have an ethical issue with oversigning as long as promises are being kept.  Since I don't know what the coaches are promising to recruits, I don't know if anything unethical is happening.  I imagine it would be pretty easy for coaches to make a strong sales pitch without promising a full roster spot for four years regardless of how the athlete performs.

[alexava 6,974]

"- Remember when everyone liked to talk about how few scholarship players we had in 2009 and how it was Tuberville's fault.  Well, it might be Tub's fault that he recruited so many troublemakers/academic risks, but it was Chizik who sent those kids packing to make room for the 2010 class.  We were under the 85 limit because we were getting ready for the huge 2010 recruting haul."

what players did chizik send packing? i remember 3 guys that he sent his 1st year that were high on the depth chart and he put spencer pybus and adam herring on medical scholarship and they both were contributors and needed at linebacker. if you have info that chiz has cut guys to make room without justification please explain.

[AUoutsider 0]

what players did chizik send packing? i remember 3 guys that he sent his 1st year that were high on the depth chart and he put spencer pybus and adam herring on medical scholarship and they both were contributors and needed at linebacker. if you have info that chiz has cut guys to make room without justification please explain.

Not saying "without justification", but an incomplete list of guys who left for one reason or another that Chizik didn't recruit.

Christian Thompson

Jomarcus Savage

Cameron Henderson (though he left later in the year)

Marcus Jemison

Andre Wadely (Was he ever part of the team? Had heart issues as I recall))

And guys who left for reasons I know not of (some medical hardships) :

Spencer Pybus

Dax Dellenbach

Da'Shaun Barnes

Adam Herring

Harry Adams

Vance Smith

Bailey Woods

Mike Slade (he seemed to leave because he was getting passed by younger guys, but isn't that the case with all the guys Saban sends packing)

Brent Slusher (did he leave under Tuberville?)

D'Antione Hood (left in 2010)

Basically Chizik wiped out half the 2008 class, leaving Chris Todd, Eric Smith, Darvin Adams, Barret Trotter, PPL, T-Bell, Derek Winter and Derrick Lykes.  (Not a terrible group if the last four ever do anything.)

[alexava 6,974]

my point is i dont think chizik ran anyone off to make room for better players. some medical and some discipline and some of the disciplined rejects were players we needed. some left by thier own choice. i know herring and pybus were medical but i dont know if thier injuries were actually career ending, i dont think chizik would force a kid on a medical out. i do wonder if herring and pybus are still in school at au.

[toomexy 0]

my point is i dont think chizik ran anyone off to make room for better players. some medical and some discipline and some of the disciplined rejects were players we needed. some left by thier own choice. i know herring and pybus were medical but i dont know if thier injuries were actually career ending, i dont think chizik would force a kid on a medical out. i do wonder if herring and pybus are still in school at au.

True.  Pybus had concussions.  I'm not sure if he had too many or what.  Herring had a heel problem that was reinjured after surgery.  Wadely i believe collapsed at practice.  CGC never goes into specifics.  I don't really think Chizik is purposefully upgrading his roster through medical redshirts.  Pybus was fresh all sec.  I don't have a problem with cutting players loose who break rules.  It happens.

We will find out next year if CGC purposefully oversigns, when we have a smaller senior class.  It would be pretty stupid to preach family and cut 10 or so players every year. 

[Ronald McDonald 0]

AUoutsider, add Justin Albert to that list.

And totally agree with everything you've said.

[AUoutsider 0]

AUoutsider, add Justin Albert to that list.

And totally agree with everything you've said.

Thanks SW.  I probably wouldn't include Justin in that kind of list since he was a walk-on.  He didn't count against the 85 limit so he was kind of a free player, and if he was sent away there was probably a compelling reason.  That actually expands the issue we've been discussing because I believe there is a limit to the total number of players, scholarship and walk-on, that a team can have.  Something like 100 or 110.  I think it's Title IX related since male walk-ons count against the guy/girl athlete ratio at a school.  Chizik is probably managing that number as closely as he manages the 85 limit.

[AURandy1345162767 14]

OK, so the medical redshirt or hardship or whatever it's called is legal, the fact that Nicky has done this with 11 or 12 players in the 3 years he's been at Bama while all the other teams in the SEC have done it a collective 12 times in the same time period, should raise a big red flag to recruits and parents all over. I know the answer to this, so this is basically a rhetorical question, but do any of you think the media would be so silent on this if this were being done at AUBURN? Hell no!!!!!!

[wdeexit310 0]

BJ Scott just got ousted, said him and Saban did not get along>

[auclong 1]

Thanks SW.  I probably wouldn't include Justin in that kind of list since he was a walk-on.  He didn't count against the 85 limit so he was kind of a free player, and if he was sent away there was probably a compelling reason.  That actually expands the issue we've been discussing because I believe there is a limit to the total number of players, scholarship and walk-on, that a team can have.  Something like 100 or 110.  I think it's Title IX related since male walk-ons count against the guy/girl athlete ratio at a school.  Chizik is probably managing that number as closely as he manages the 85 limit.

There isn`t a limit on total players. There is of course the 85 limit on schollies and then you can have up to 20 invited walkons until school begins. After classes start you can have as many as you feel your staff will handle and your coaches can keep up with. You seldom have many over the 105 limit though 120 or so is not unheard of.

[WarTiger6 0]

http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2011/01/20/a-word-about-oversigning-and-revisiting-sabans-dance/?cxntfid=blogs_jeff_schultz_blog

[AuburnGrad78 0]

And I find it unconscionable that Saban is already oversigned by about 10, yet is trumpeting this weekend as the most important recruiting weekend of the year.

I for one hope that Chizik never practices oversigning the way that Saban does.

If you are going to allow oversigning, allow "cut" players to transfer anywhere, including within conference, without sitting out a year.  Those who kiss up to Saban at Bama claim that a scholarship is a one-year renewable commitment.  If that is the case, it should be the same for the players; they should have the same flexibility that Saban gives himself at their expense.

[WhiteTiger 2]

I have been interested in this over signing thing for some time now and wondered how many BCS schools practice this type of recruiting policy.  I was really surprised at what I found. We actually lead all BCS schools in doing this.  Here is the list that I found covering the top schools since 2002.

All BCS Schools

Teams  Conf. 2002 2003  2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Total Average 

Auburn SEC 31 27 29 22 25 30 29 28 32 253 28.11

Miss. State SEC 30 28 23 29 24 33 27 27 26 247 27.44

Iowa State B12 27 26 29 27 30 25 25 26 28 243 27.00

South Carolina SEC 27 28 29 28 24 31 23 29 23 242 26.89

Arkansas SEC 23 25 32 24 26 27 26 31 25 239 26.56

Kansas State B12 30 17 26 26 30 34 33 25 17 238 26.44

Ole Miss SEC 18 21 25 28 30 22 31 37 25 237 26.33

Alabama SEC 19 19 29 32 23 25 32 27 29 235 26.11

West Virginia BigEast 34 24 24 32 16 28 30 26 21 235 26.11

Oregon State PAC10 20 22 36 30 33 34 18 24 18 235 26.11

Oklahoma State B12 28 31 19 21 29 23 28 26 27 232 25.77

Louisville BigEast 23 31 24 28 25 18 26 29 27 231 25.66

Kentucky SEC 15 22 28 26 31 29 20 29 26 226 25.11

North Carolina ACC 23 26 25 25 28 24 18 28 28 225 25.00

LSU SEC 26 28 26 13 26 26 26 24 29 224 24.89

Arizona PAC10 29 26 29 26 25 19 24 24 22 224 24.88

USF BigEast 20 29 25 21 28 27 24 29 20 223 24.77

Texas Tech B12 24 25 26 21 34 26 16 25 25 222 24.66

Baylor B12 25 22 20 22 29 29 23 28 23 221 24.55

Syracuse BigEast 24 23 32 19 24 27 26 16 29 220 24.44

Oregon PAC10 24 23 29 23 21 29 22 26 23 220 24.44

Arizona State PAC10 29 22 22 21 24 24 28 22 27 219 24.33

Washington St. PAC10 28 18 27 21 24 27 27 22 25 219 24.33

Mizzu B12 23 23 25 23 25 27 24 25 23 218 24.22

Florida State ACC 22 20 26 23 31 20 32 21 23 218 24.22

Purdue B10 27 26 28 21 27 19 26 20 24 218 24.22

Minnesota B10 27 27 24 20 22 24 29 20 24 217 24.11

Tennessee SEC 25 22 24 26 22 32 18 22 25 216 24.00

Texas A&M B12 23 24 28 25 23 18 24 28 23 216 24.00

Michigan State B10 21 21 31 27 28 23 21 23 21 216 24.00

Oklahoma B12 24 24 18 27 28 21 21 23 29 215 23.89

Miami ACC 24 24 28 17 22 19 33 19 28 214 23.77

Illinois B10 23 27 24 20 27 23 28 22 20 214 23.78

Colorado B12 31 25 20 25 22 28 21 20 21 213 23.66

Rutgers BigEast 24 25 23 25 26 23 20 23 24 213 23.66

Pittsburg BigEast 23 26 25 23 27 24 19 20 24 211 23.44

Florida SEC 23 26 23 18 27 27 22 17 27 210 23.33

Nebraska B12 21 19 20 32 22 27 28 20 21 210 23.33

Virginia Tech ACC 20 23 20 25 22 26 31 22 21 210 23.33

Kansas B12 22 27 21 28 25 23 20 25 18 209 23.22

Washington PAC10 21 27 23 13 22 27 26 19 31 209 23.22

Georgia SEC 31 25 20 17 28 23 24 20 19 207 23

Wisconsin B10 25 22 23 22 23 18 26 21 24 204 22.67

Cincinnati BigEast 23 24 18 25 19 23 24 25 22 203 22.55

Indiana B10 21 25 26 25 21 20 20 19 25 202 22.44

Connecticut BigEast 14 20 28 25 22 29 22 21 20 201 22.33

N.C. State ACC 22 21 22 24 22 26 17 26 21 201 23.22

Maryland ACC 22 21 22 24 22 26 17 26 21 201 22.33

Cal PAC10 21 28 19 24 20 26 22 21 19 200 22.22

Virginia ACC 26 22 19 24 23 24 18 25 18 199 22.11

UCLA PAC10 26 19 26 21 22 11 23 27 23 198 22.00

Clemson ACC 26 17 27 25 20 23 25 12 23 198 22.00

Iowa B10 22 22 21 23 21 22 25 20 21 197 21.89

Michigan B10 21 17 22 23 19 20 24 22 27 195 21.67

Duke ACC 22 14 24 23 26 21 17 27 20 194 21.55

Texas B12 28 18 20 15 25 24 20 20 22 192 21.33

Vanderbilt SEC 22 22 20 25 25 14 21 18 24 191 21.22

USC PAC10 22 28 19 19 27 18 19 18 20 190 21.11

Boston College ACC 17 24 20 16 20 18 29 18 21 183 20.33

Penn State B10 22 11 25 19 24 21 14 27 20 183 20.33

Ohio State B10 24 16 24 18 20 15 20 25 18 180 20.00

Notre Dame Ind. 18 21 16 15 28 18 23 18 23 180 20.00

Georgia Tech ACC 15 21 24 19 16 20 20 21 21 177 19.66

Wake Forest ACC 20 23 18 19 15 20 17 23 19 174 19.33

Stanford PAC10 16 26 12 17 18 19 17 22 23 170 18.89

Northwestern B10 22 22 15 20 17 19 20 18 17 170 18.89

[aucpe 0]

The only stat that matters is the number of players signed versus the number of scholarship positions available at the time of the signing (minus the number of players who are signed knowing that they are accpeting greyshirts).

Total numbers of players signed per year is a misleading statistic without the other variables.

[WarFamEagle 0]

my point is i dont think chizik ran anyone off to make room for better players. some medical and some discipline and some of the disciplined rejects were players we needed. some left by thier own choice. i know herring and pybus were medical but i dont know if thier injuries were actually career ending, i dont think chizik would force a kid on a medical out. i do wonder if herring and pybus are still in school at au.

True.  Pybus had concussions.  I'm not sure if he had too many or what.  Herring had a heel problem that was reinjured after surgery.  Wadely i believe collapsed at practice.  CGC never goes into specifics.  I don't really think Chizik is purposefully upgrading his roster through medical redshirts.  Pybus was fresh all sec.  I don't have a problem with cutting players loose who break rules.  It happens.

We will find out next year if CGC purposefully oversigns, when we have a smaller senior class.  It would be pretty stupid to preach family and cut 10 or so players every year. 

Spencer is a good friend of mine. He had three concussions in spring practice and the last one was really bad. I highly doubt Chiz would ever cheat the system like saTan does.

[catch8185 4]

clong - that is true.  I thought there was a limit too because Title IX was an issue when I was a walk-on on the Cross Country team when I was there.  If I understand it right, all the total male athletes had to match all the total number of females ... or maybe it had to meet a certain percentage.  I don't remember all the details but some of us feared we were on the chopping block because of the Title IX issue.  I would have thought the limit was around 110 also.

[around4ever 4,139]

Title IX only applies to available scholarships.  Walk-ons do not count toward gender equity.  Title IX requires that females be offered the same number of scholarships as males. 

There is no women's offset for the 85 football scholarships.  That is why all schools have more women's sports than men's sports.  They make up the difference with more sports. 

[AUFan1 0]

I could be wrong but I recall XCTT being pretty hard nosed when it came to discipline, and not having a problem running guys off if he had to. As far as Chizik wiping out half of the 08 class, don't forget how current and former players described the team during the 08 season. It was fractured and broken. I have no inside knowledge, but I would bet that Chizik made it a point to cut out the big time cancers on that team to make the point to the other players that they either got on board or they would be gone too. He established himself as the undisputed leader of the football program

As far as next year goes, I think we have 8 to 10 seniors. If you add in the 3 early defections this year that could bring us up to 13 spots give or take. Add in a few guys each year that for whatever reason don't make it, say 4 or 5, and we are up to 18 slots perhaps. So give or take a few numbers, I would expect us to sign around 20 next year.

I could be completely wrong on numbers, so don't take what I'm saying as 100% accurate.

[WhiteTiger 2]

Most coaches have been managing their numbers this way for many years.  Life is about competition every where.  Even if you own your on business you better perform as well or better than you competitor or you won't last long.  This isn't little league where everybody plays.  Here you have to beat out someone to get on the field, and if you get beat out by enough people you need to find somewhere you can play, if you want on the field. If you don't want on the field then that's probably why you aren't on it. 

[AuburnNTexas 7,213]

You guys need to stop looking at what Bama is doing as if we aren't also doing it.  Pure hypocricy.  Oversigning comes down to one statistic (all the others are a distraction):  how many scholarship players enroll as part of each years 25 allotted scholarships.  That's it.  If a school signs ENROLLS 25 a year for 4 years then they are necessarily clearing their roster out to stay within the 85 max for the team.  It doesn't matter when they get rid of a kid, just that at some point a kid left the team early and freed up their scholarship.

Has Chizik used every available scholarship so far?  Yes.  He has enrolled 50 new kids so far and he looks to be enrolling 25 more in 2011, so that's 75.  I predict he'll enroll another 25 in 2012 which will necessarily require attrition among his own recruits (100 enrolled Chizik recruits > 85 limit).

So Chizik has enrolled the maximum number of recruits over 2, soon to be 3 years, and Saban has enrolled the maximum number of recruits over his 4 or 5 years.  Do you resent either coach for refreshing their inherited rosters as quickly as possible? The main difference in the way Chizik clears space on the roster and the way Saban clears space is that Chizik does it over a year ahead of time so by the time February signings role around he already has space and therefore doesn't open himself up to criticism.  Saban clears his roster spots at the last possible moment before the recruits arrive, which makes him look like a villain.  I'm sure Saban thinks there is some competitive advantage gained from keeping kids around as long as possible (turns Spring practice into a tryout), but it's causing him a PR nightmare.

Am I full of it?  Does anybody remember having discussions after the 2009 class signed about how few openings the 2010 class would have?  We didn't have that many seniors graduating in 2009.  But lo and behold there were a number of medical hardships and a bunch of kids that got in trouble in class and some academic casualties.  Were those legit?  I'm sure most of them were.  That's the big advantage of clearing the roster early... you can take advantage of legitimate issues.  Some of those kids could have helped us on the field in 2009, so Chizik wasn't just cutting the least physically gifted.  He targeted trouble makers and academic issues.  Good for him.

I have no idea if Saban just cuts the athletically challenged, but that is the way it appears.  He seems to have reached a point where all the extra spots are reclaimed from kids that aren't in the 2 deep.  I wonder whether it will become like that once Chizik has a roster full of good kids who maintain their grades.  As well as he is recrutiing we should expect academic and moral behavior to improve with each new class.  But will he continue to enroll 25 a year, rain or shine?  If he does then he is no different that Saban.

You make some good points but over a 4 year span you probably lose close to 15 players for legitimate reasons, injury, grades, they realize they won't  get much playing time and request a trasfer, homesick that is only 4 players a year.