Spencer 0 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Here's another issue that comes up from time to time. There were several times while Malzahn was at Auburn that we came out in odd formations. One we would have the center over the ball and the rest toward the sidelines. Some we would split Lee Ziemba (#73) out wide like a WR and he was on the end of the line. Is he eligible to catch a forward pass?? On the play ziemba releases down field a little as the play was supposed to be a screen, so he can legally go down field. However, the screen was well defended so the pass ended up going down field. There was a flag thrown on the play. Penalty? YES, Ineligible man down field. When this happened, Kirk Herbstreit was doing the game and said ziemba was flagged because he didn't report as eligible. This is ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY and TOTALLY FALSE. Announcers don't know the rules either. Ziemba was flagged for being illegally down field because he was ineligible from the very beginning of the play. There is no "reporting" in college football. There is NO tackle eligible play in college football. Ziemba was NEVER an eligible pass receiver in any way shape or form. Why was he ineligible? He was on the end of the line, but he isn't numbered correctly. Since ziemba is #73 he is never eligible to catch a legal forward pass. Here's the rule reference as to who is eligible to touch a legal pass: Eligibility To Touch Legal Pass ARTICLE 3. Eligibility rules apply during a down when a legal forward pass is thrown. All Team B players are eligible to touch or catch a pass. When the ball is snapped, the following Team A players are eligible: a. Each player who is in an end position on his scrimmage line and who is wearing a number other than 50 through 79 (A.R. 7-3-3-I). b. Each player who is legally positioned as a back wearing a number other than 50 through 79. c. A player wearing a number other than 50 through 79 in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs. Good info there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Interesting stuff, War Tiger. Questions for you: Can you have pass interference on a screen play behind the line of scrimmage, or can the defensive player tackle the running back? What's the deal about a tight end "covering up" a wide receiver? I know you have to have 7 people on the line of scrimmage, but how does an otherwise eligible receiver become ineligible by formation? Thanks for the info. Good question! Or even holding on the defense in the same situation? Hey, WarTiger -- I get why there can't be pass interference on a pass that doesn't go beyond the line of scrimmage, but can there be defensive holding on that play? If the linebacker tackles the back for whom the screen pass is intended (before the pass), then is that legal or defensive holding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The SandMntTiger 9 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I'm still wondering why the refs stopped the clock for thUGA the play before their tying TD in the '97 game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I'm still wondering why the refs stopped the clock for thUGA the play before their tying TD in the '97 game $? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarTiger 3,910 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Interesting stuff, War Tiger. Questions for you: Can you have pass interference on a screen play behind the line of scrimmage, or can the defensive player tackle the running back? What's the deal about a tight end "covering up" a wide receiver? I know you have to have 7 people on the line of scrimmage, but how does an otherwise eligible receiver become ineligible by formation? Thanks for the info. Good question! Or even holding on the defense in the same situation? Hey, WarTiger -- I get why there can't be pass interference on a pass that doesn't go beyond the line of scrimmage, but can there be defensive holding on that play? If the linebacker tackles the back for whom the screen pass is intended (before the pass), then is that legal or defensive holding? legal because a defensive player can tackle someone pretending to be a runner much like they tackle a RB on a fake handoff. I'm still wondering why the refs stopped the clock for thUGA the play before their tying TD in the '97 game I'm pretty sure it happened because one of the Auburn linemen moved the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsfr 0 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Ok. Here's another one that I saw recently. It's 4th down. Distance doesn't matter here. K is in scrimmage kick (punt) formation. K1 kicks the ball R1 is back for the return and is standing on his 10 yard line. The kick backs him up to the 7 yard line where he catches the punt. His momentum continues going backwards and he is downed in the endzone. OR, he fields the punt at the 4 yard line and his momentum takes him into the endzone where he is downed. Where do you spot the ball in either case??? The 7 yrd stumble should result is a safety and the 4 yrd stumble should be spotted at the 4, 1st and 10 for R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Ok. Here's another one that I saw recently. It's 4th down. Distance doesn't matter here. K is in scrimmage kick (punt) formation. K1 kicks the ball R1 is back for the return and is standing on his 10 yard line. The kick backs him up to the 7 yard line where he catches the punt. His momentum continues going backwards and he is downed in the endzone. OR, he fields the punt at the 4 yard line and his momentum takes him into the endzone where he is downed. Where do you spot the ball in either case??? The 7 yrd stumble should result is a safety and the 4 yrd stumble should be spotted at the 4, 1st and 10 for R. I would've thought both were touchbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECEstudentUA 9 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Trying to remember. Arkansas and Tennessee had a play in the SEC championship in 1998 where the Arkansas QB went back to pass, slipped, and keep his balance with the ball in this throwing hand.....he used the ball to gain his balance on the ground....seems like the Ref's ruled him down instead of allowing the play to finish. Did that rule change, or is that another example of the SEC Ref's blowing a call? I could be wrong on the date also....pretty sure it was 1998 though. It was Mississippi State and Tennessee, not Arkansas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsfr 0 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Ok. Here's another one that I saw recently. It's 4th down. Distance doesn't matter here. K is in scrimmage kick (punt) formation. K1 kicks the ball R1 is back for the return and is standing on his 10 yard line. The kick backs him up to the 7 yard line where he catches the punt. His momentum continues going backwards and he is downed in the endzone. OR, he fields the punt at the 4 yard line and his momentum takes him into the endzone where he is downed. Where do you spot the ball in either case??? The 7 yrd stumble should result is a safety and the 4 yrd stumble should be spotted at the 4, 1st and 10 for R. I would've thought both were touchbacks. The momentum rule is only in effect inside the 5 yrd line. Anything outside that you should be able to stop your momentum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarTiger 3,910 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Ok. Here's another one that I saw recently. It's 4th down. Distance doesn't matter here. K is in scrimmage kick (punt) formation. K1 kicks the ball R1 is back for the return and is standing on his 10 yard line. The kick backs him up to the 7 yard line where he catches the punt. His momentum continues going backwards and he is downed in the endzone. OR, he fields the punt at the 4 yard line and his momentum takes him into the endzone where he is downed. Where do you spot the ball in either case??? The 7 yrd stumble should result is a safety and the 4 yrd stumble should be spotted at the 4, 1st and 10 for R. you are 100% correct. In high school football they call it Momentum, in college its referred to as IMPETUS. They allow you 5 yards of momentum. Anything outside of 5 yards that ends up in the endzone is a safety. Anything inside of 5 yards returns to the spot of possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Ok. Here's another one that I saw recently. It's 4th down. Distance doesn't matter here. K is in scrimmage kick (punt) formation. K1 kicks the ball R1 is back for the return and is standing on his 10 yard line. The kick backs him up to the 7 yard line where he catches the punt. His momentum continues going backwards and he is downed in the endzone. OR, he fields the punt at the 4 yard line and his momentum takes him into the endzone where he is downed. Where do you spot the ball in either case??? The 7 yrd stumble should result is a safety and the 4 yrd stumble should be spotted at the 4, 1st and 10 for R. you are 100% correct. In high school football they call it Momentum, in college its referred to as IMPETUS. They allow you 5 yards of momentum. Anything outside of 5 yards that ends up in the endzone is a safety. Anything inside of 5 yards returns to the spot of possession. Good call, adsfr! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarTiger 3,910 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Trying to remember. Arkansas and Tennessee had a play in the SEC championship in 1998 where the Arkansas QB went back to pass, slipped, and keep his balance with the ball in this throwing hand.....he used the ball to gain his balance on the ground....seems like the Ref's ruled him down instead of allowing the play to finish. Did that rule change, or is that another example of the SEC Ref's blowing a call? I could be wrong on the date also....pretty sure it was 1998 though. It was Mississippi State and Tennessee, not Arkansas. No, it was arkansas. We covered this on page 1 of this thread. The video footage from youtube is there. That's a fumble and a free ball. The ground CAN cause a fumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Trying to remember. Arkansas and Tennessee had a play in the SEC championship in 1998 where the Arkansas QB went back to pass, slipped, and keep his balance with the ball in this throwing hand.....he used the ball to gain his balance on the ground....seems like the Ref's ruled him down instead of allowing the play to finish. Did that rule change, or is that another example of the SEC Ref's blowing a call? I could be wrong on the date also....pretty sure it was 1998 though. It was Mississippi State and Tennessee, not Arkansas. No, pretty sure it was Arkansas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adsfr 0 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Thanks War Tiger and I enjoy the thread. I ref'd HS game for a while and this has reminded me how much I enjoyed it. Have a good season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I'm enjoying the thread, too. Always fun to be educated. I'm also looking forward to the 2012 Touchdown Auburn Bowl. Thanks for running that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarTiger 3,910 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Here's another play and one that Auburn fans will remember from last year. Utah State game. Onside kick. On the onside kick, Emory Blake recovered the ball around the 42-43 yard line and had open field and kept running. He was tackled down somewhere inside the Utah State 25 yard line if I remember right without looking at my video of the game. The officials brought the ball back to the spot that Emory Blake secured possession. Why? Because the kicking team cannot advance a kick. Since team B never possessed the ball, the kick hasn't ended. Therefore, any advancement of the ball by K is void as the ball is dead when K possessed it. Free Kick Caught or Recovered ARTICLE 6. a. If a free kick is caught or recovered by a player of the receiving team, the ball continues in play (Exceptions: Rules 4-1-3-g, 6-1-7, and 6-5-1 and 2). If caught or recovered by a player of the kicking team, the ball becomes dead. The ball belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot, unless the kicking team is in legal possession when the ball is declared dead. In the latter case, the ball belongs to the kicking team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Here's another play and one that Auburn fans will remember from last year. Utah State game. Onside kick. On the onside kick, Emory Blake recovered the ball around the 42-43 yard line and had open field and kept running. He was tackled down somewhere inside the Utah State 25 yard line if I remember right without looking at my video of the game. The officials brought the ball back to the spot that Emory Blake secured possession. Why? Because the kicking team cannot advance a kick. Since team B never possessed the ball, the kick hasn't ended. Therefore, any advancement of the ball by K is void as the ball is dead when K possessed it. Free Kick Caught or Recovered ARTICLE 6. a. If a free kick is caught or recovered by a player of the receiving team, the ball continues in play (Exceptions: Rules 4-1-3-g, 6-1-7, and 6-5-1 and 2). If caught or recovered by a player of the kicking team, the ball becomes dead. The ball belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot, unless the kicking team is in legal possession when the ball is declared dead. In the latter case, the ball belongs to the kicking team. OK, this reminds me. How do you think the new kickoff rule will affect strategies on kickoffs? I bet we see more onside kicks. But then there's that new rule about calling a fair catch on high bouncers? Can you help us understand that?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarTiger 3,910 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Here's another play and one that Auburn fans will remember from last year. Utah State game. Onside kick. On the onside kick, Emory Blake recovered the ball around the 42-43 yard line and had open field and kept running. He was tackled down somewhere inside the Utah State 25 yard line if I remember right without looking at my video of the game. The officials brought the ball back to the spot that Emory Blake secured possession. Why? Because the kicking team cannot advance a kick. Since team B never possessed the ball, the kick hasn't ended. Therefore, any advancement of the ball by K is void as the ball is dead when K possessed it. Free Kick Caught or Recovered ARTICLE 6. a. If a free kick is caught or recovered by a player of the receiving team, the ball continues in play (Exceptions: Rules 4-1-3-g, 6-1-7, and 6-5-1 and 2). If caught or recovered by a player of the kicking team, the ball becomes dead. The ball belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot, unless the kicking team is in legal possession when the ball is declared dead. In the latter case, the ball belongs to the kicking team. OK, this reminds me. How do you think the new kickoff rule will affect strategies on kickoffs? I bet we see more onside kicks. But then there's that new rule about calling a fair catch on high bouncers? Can you help us understand that?! I honestly believe the new kickoff rules will be the least noticed rules all season. I may be wrong and only time will tell. But, my take on it is this. The free kick line was only at the 30 for 3-4 years. It was at the 35 prior to that, and most kickers then couldn't get the ball into the endzone or certainly not more than 2-3 yards deep. I don't believe that kickers strength across the board has changed that much in 3-4 years, thus I don't think it will be much of a factor. Now, Parkey and a few others in the country had the ability to put the ball in the back of the endzone and often even OUT of the back of the endzone consistently all season from the 30. Those particular kickers are going to have to practice kicking it shorter (if the coaches want to pin a team deep and not give up the touchback to the 25). They have to practice it because they kick it so far, while the majority of the kickers aren't going to have to practice that, because they didn't kick it deep enough for it to matter. It's going to be different the first time they bring the ball out to the 25 on a touchback, but I really don't see it affecting the game that much. I'm sure others have different opinions for sure, but its really something we will have to wait and see how the teams handle that. They may intentionally kick the ball higher to get their coverage team down the field. Who knows. We will find out in less than 2 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarTiger 3,910 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 They have changed the rule on the single high bounce onside kicks. The receiving team can now call for a fair catch on those kicks. Add new paragraph e: e. During a free kick a player of the receiving team in position to receive the ball has the same kick-catch and fair-catch protection whether the ball is kicked directly off the tee or is immediately driven to the ground, strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of the ball kicked directly off the tee. This is accompanied by an exception in paragraph a regarding the kick touching the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 They have changed the rule on the single high bounce onside kicks. The receiving team can now call for a fair catch on those kicks. Add new paragraph e: e. During a free kick a player of the receiving team in position to receive the ball has the same kick-catch and fair-catch protection whether the ball is kicked directly off the tee or is immediately driven to the ground, strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of the ball kicked directly off the tee. This is accompanied by an exception in paragraph a regarding the kick touching the ground. Don't you see all kinds of problems with this rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Here's another play and one that Auburn fans will remember from last year. Utah State game. Onside kick. On the onside kick, Emory Blake recovered the ball around the 42-43 yard line and had open field and kept running. He was tackled down somewhere inside the Utah State 25 yard line if I remember right without looking at my video of the game. The officials brought the ball back to the spot that Emory Blake secured possession. Why? Because the kicking team cannot advance a kick. Since team B never possessed the ball, the kick hasn't ended. Therefore, any advancement of the ball by K is void as the ball is dead when K possessed it. Free Kick Caught or Recovered ARTICLE 6. a. If a free kick is caught or recovered by a player of the receiving team, the ball continues in play (Exceptions: Rules 4-1-3-g, 6-1-7, and 6-5-1 and 2). If caught or recovered by a player of the kicking team, the ball becomes dead. The ball belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot, unless the kicking team is in legal possession when the ball is declared dead. In the latter case, the ball belongs to the kicking team. OK, this reminds me. How do you think the new kickoff rule will affect strategies on kickoffs? I bet we see more onside kicks. But then there's that new rule about calling a fair catch on high bouncers? Can you help us understand that?! I honestly believe the new kickoff rules will be the least noticed rules all season. I may be wrong and only time will tell. But, my take on it is this. The free kick line was only at the 30 for 3-4 years. It was at the 35 prior to that, and most kickers then couldn't get the ball into the endzone or certainly not more than 2-3 yards deep. I don't believe that kickers strength across the board has changed that much in 3-4 years, thus I don't think it will be much of a factor. Now, Parkey and a few others in the country had the ability to put the ball in the back of the endzone and often even OUT of the back of the endzone consistently all season from the 30. Those particular kickers are going to have to practice kicking it shorter (if the coaches want to pin a team deep and not give up the touchback to the 25). They have to practice it because they kick it so far, while the majority of the kickers aren't going to have to practice that, because they didn't kick it deep enough for it to matter. It's going to be different the first time they bring the ball out to the 25 on a touchback, but I really don't see it affecting the game that much. I'm sure others have different opinions for sure, but its really something we will have to wait and see how the teams handle that. They may intentionally kick the ball higher to get their coverage team down the field. Who knows. We will find out in less than 2 weeks. Can't wait for kickoff (so to speak)! War Eagle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarTiger 3,910 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 They have changed the rule on the single high bounce onside kicks. The receiving team can now call for a fair catch on those kicks. Add new paragraph e: e. During a free kick a player of the receiving team in position to receive the ball has the same kick-catch and fair-catch protection whether the ball is kicked directly off the tee or is immediately driven to the ground, strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of the ball kicked directly off the tee. This is accompanied by an exception in paragraph a regarding the kick touching the ground. Don't you see all kinds of problems with this rule? Not really. I don't particularly like it, but I know why it was done. Look at the rule changes put in place this season. They all have the same thing in common. They are all centered around player safety. Coaches are just going to have to find another way to execute an onside kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUbritt 611 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 They have changed the rule on the single high bounce onside kicks. The receiving team can now call for a fair catch on those kicks. Add new paragraph e: e. During a free kick a player of the receiving team in position to receive the ball has the same kick-catch and fair-catch protection whether the ball is kicked directly off the tee or is immediately driven to the ground, strikes the ground once and goes into the air in the manner of the ball kicked directly off the tee. This is accompanied by an exception in paragraph a regarding the kick touching the ground. Don't you see all kinds of problems with this rule? Not really. I don't particularly like it, but I know why it was done. Look at the rule changes put in place this season. They all have the same thing in common. They are all centered around player safety. Coaches are just going to have to find another way to execute an onside kick. Well, I like our little dribbler a lot. We had a discussion of the new fair catch rule over at AE before the merge. Folks were pretty skeptical about the new rule, and I'm sympathetic. I also wonder whether the new rules will really improve safety. As you say, time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jared52 4,354 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I've always wondered why the Imgram fumble in the 2010 Iron Bowl was ruled a touchback before AU recovered it. If you watch the replay, the side judge clearly blows his whistle and motions for a touchback before AU recovers the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECEstudentUA 9 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Trying to remember. Arkansas and Tennessee had a play in the SEC championship in 1998 where the Arkansas QB went back to pass, slipped, and keep his balance with the ball in this throwing hand.....he used the ball to gain his balance on the ground....seems like the Ref's ruled him down instead of allowing the play to finish. Did that rule change, or is that another example of the SEC Ref's blowing a call? I could be wrong on the date also....pretty sure it was 1998 though. It was Mississippi State and Tennessee, not Arkansas. No, it was arkansas. We covered this on page 1 of this thread. The video footage from youtube is there. That's a fumble and a free ball. The ground CAN cause a fumble. Ahh I see now, and it wasnt the SEC Championship game.......anyway, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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