Michael Sams coming out party

[icanthearyou 4,463]

We are all guilty of a multitude of sins. To single this particular one out, seems utterly anti-Christian to me. What purpose does it serve?

[homersapien 11,396]

war eagle6, you're embarrassing yourself. Even if you're 100% correct theologically, your manner of conveying truth undermines your message. Reading back over your snippy, flippant tone, it's hard to jibe that with this:

1 Peter 3:15-16

¹⁵ but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, ¹⁶ having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

The Bible tells us that we will be hated and suffer persecution just because of the nature of the truth we proclaim. But it doesn't implore us to up the ante by acting snotty and arrogant when we deliver it.

Whatever dude, I'm not acting snotty or arrogant, just telling the truth, besides that he who is without sin let him cast the first stone. While your Judgeing me just know u will be judged also. I'm going to sum this whole conversation up in one line only and I am done with this topic,NO ONE is gonna change my view when it comes to JESUS and his teachings but JESUS himself! What anyone of u have to say about it is a moot point to me, because what is written is etched in my heart. Mans law don't mean Sugar Honey Iced Tea to me! Also understand this; I don't hate homosexuals, that discussion will be between them and GOD, I hate it when people try and force me to accept it!

How can anyone force you to accept homosexuality? Do you love homosexuals? Does Christ? Are you afraid of homosexuality? Do you believe that homosexuality will come to dominate society if it is not persecuted? Is homosexuality some sort of special sin, more destructive than other sins? Should we spend our time and resources fighting homosexuals socially and politically?

Did u miss the Michael Sam love fest on TV? That's what I'm speaking of, it's not your business how I feel about it, good or bad. I just wrote down my opinion. When you're raising kids, especially boys who love football and they see that fiasco with Sam and his partner, then turn to me asking why is that man kissing another man? Even kids know it's unnatural. And to answer all of your question.........NO, I fear nothing and NO man walking GODS green earth!

LOL! Actually, I did miss the "love fest" on TV.

But I have a question. Why not just explain to your boys why a man is kissing another man?

If they are really young, just say they love each other and let it go. If they are older, explain to them what homosexuality is. (Just don't forget to tell them that not everyone believes the way you do about it.) After all, they will encounter it again, with or without your presence.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

We are all guilty of a multitude of sins. To single this particular one out, seems utterly anti-Christian to me. What purpose does it serve?

See, I don't think they are singling it out. I think you happen to hear more about it because it is the cause célèbre of the moment and that makes it sound as if it's being singled out. But Christians in evangelical churches all over speak of many other things that are sin and that we should be on guard about and repent of if we are guilty of them such as greed, envy, other sexual sins, arrogance, lack of generosity and so on. I've been in the evangelical subculture for over 25 years in denominations as varied as Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, non-denominational and Anglican. I've heard more sermons that you could count. When they spoke on sin and repentance, homosexuality was hardly "singled out." In fact it wasn't talked about that much at all compared to some other things. The things in most of those places that were talked about the most were issues more of the heart that people can't always see more than the obvious external sins.

But regardless, do you think it ever reasonable or Christian to speak on sin and repentance? If so, when and on what subjects? If not, why not?

[homersapien 11,396]

Perhaps it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish, especially when the tone is like it has been in this thread, but distinguish it we must. It's obvious that Jesus affirmed the distinction when he backed up John the Baptist's call to repent and made his own calls to repentance yet also said the Son didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. It's obvious when he told the woman caught in adultery not only that He didn't condemn her but to "go and sin no more." That's what repentance is...it is a turning away from sin and moving in a new direction.

I don't understand what you are getting at here? What is "it"?

That post of mine came in response to this exchange:

I believe that those who hate, or seek to persecute, or condemn sinners do not understand Christ's message or, perfect love.

I'll say that I agree with the caveat that calling one to repentance does not fall under hating, persecuting or condemning sinners.

I find that to be a difficult distinction when so much attention is being placed on one specific sin. It appears to me that, compassion has been replaced by condemnation.

OK, I get your point now. And I agree. But then, how can one basically tell another they are sinners because of who they are without evoking a strong defensive response?

As a non-Christian I certainly have no standing to provide advice, but if it were me, I just wouldn't go there at all. I don't think you should take on that moral responsibility for another person unless you already have a close relationship with them. Even then I just don't see how it would help, presuming they already know how you feel.

IMO, there's just no good way of directly telling someone else they should repent for their sins.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

war eagle6, you're embarrassing yourself. Even if you're 100% correct theologically, your manner of conveying truth undermines your message. Reading back over your snippy, flippant tone, it's hard to jibe that with this:

1 Peter 3:15-16

¹⁵ but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, ¹⁶ having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

The Bible tells us that we will be hated and suffer persecution just because of the nature of the truth we proclaim. But it doesn't implore us to up the ante by acting snotty and arrogant when we deliver it.

Whatever dude, I'm not acting snotty or arrogant, just telling the truth, besides that he who is without sin let him cast the first stone. While your Judgeing me just know u will be judged also. I'm going to sum this whole conversation up in one line only and I am done with this topic,NO ONE is gonna change my view when it comes to JESUS and his teachings but JESUS himself! What anyone of u have to say about it is a moot point to me, because what is written is etched in my heart. Mans law don't mean Sugar Honey Iced Tea to me! Also understand this; I don't hate homosexuals, that discussion will be between them and GOD, I hate it when people try and force me to accept it!

How can anyone force you to accept homosexuality? Do you love homosexuals? Does Christ? Are you afraid of homosexuality? Do you believe that homosexuality will come to dominate society if it is not persecuted? Is homosexuality some sort of special sin, more destructive than other sins? Should we spend our time and resources fighting homosexuals socially and politically?

Did u miss the Michael Sam love fest on TV? That's what I'm speaking of, it's not your business how I feel about it, good or bad. I just wrote down my opinion. When you're raising kids, especially boys who love football and they see that fiasco with Sam and his partner, then turn to me asking why is that man kissing another man? Even kids know it's unnatural. And to answer all of your question.........NO, I fear nothing and NO man walking GODS green earth!

LOL! Actually, I did miss the "love fest" on TV.

But I have a question. Why not just explain to your boys why a man is kissing another man?

If they are really young, just say they love each other and let it go. If they are older, explain to them what homosexuality is. (Just don't forget to tell them that not everyone believes the way you do about it.) After all, they will encounter it again, with or without your presence.

I hate to defend war eagle6 on any point, but I understand his concern on some level. I would rather just not be forced to explain certain things to my kids at certain ages. Like when we were watching the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade this past year and they decided without any warning to show a selection from the Broadway show "Kinky Boots", complete with actual transvestites is skimpy outfits. My 8 year old was watching it with us. I would just prefer not to try and explain that some men like to dress up in racy women's clothing, wear makeup and try to look and act like women. I think that subject matter it too mature and confusing. Sure, when she exclaimed, "what is THAT?!?" (she could tell they were men dressed up like women), I was able to come up with something about it but this was a family program. I shouldn't be explaining transvestites to my 8-year old daughter. If that's something someone wanted to expose their kid to and talk about it at that age, such material is certainly accessible to them by their own free choice. But being surprised by it during a Thanksgiving Parade wasn't necessary.

We also had to do this on the subject of homosexuality recently when "Good Luck Charlie" decided it needed to have a show where the little girl's friend had two moms and they didn't mean a mom and stepmom. So we explained the Biblical concept of marriage to our kids but then explained that some people don't think that marriage is for just a man and a woman. They think it can be between two men or two women. We told them that we believe the Bible teaches that this is wrong but that we still love the people who believe that way and we don't make fun of them or treat them badly and that God loves them too. He doesn't want them to live this way just like He doesn't want us to sometimes do some of the things we do, but He still loves them just like He loves us. We should pray for them and treat them the way Jesus treated people.

Again...it was a discussion that was probably coming in another year or so. I would have preferred not to have it dropped into a kid's show without warning, forcing my hand.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

OK, I get your point now. And I agree. But then, how can one basically tell another they are sinners because of who they are without evoking a strong defensive response?

As a non-Christian I certainly have no standing to provide advice, but if it were me, I just wouldn't go there at all. I don't think you should take on that moral responsibility for another person unless you already have a close relationship with them. Even then I just don't see how it would help, presuming they already know how you feel.

IMO, there's just no good way of directly telling someone else they should repent for their sins.

I guess that's just the cross we have to bear. No one, especially in this day, ever wants to be told anything they want to do is wrong. But as Christians we are called to speak the truth and we are commissioned to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Part of the gospel is the need for repentance. To fail to do so is akin to letting people drive off the cliff I mentioned earlier. It's not loving at all...it's monstrous and inhuman in fact.

[homersapien 11,396]

war eagle6, you're embarrassing yourself. Even if you're 100% correct theologically, your manner of conveying truth undermines your message. Reading back over your snippy, flippant tone, it's hard to jibe that with this:

1 Peter 3:15-16

¹⁵ but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, ¹⁶ having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

The Bible tells us that we will be hated and suffer persecution just because of the nature of the truth we proclaim. But it doesn't implore us to up the ante by acting snotty and arrogant when we deliver it.

Whatever dude, I'm not acting snotty or arrogant, just telling the truth, besides that he who is without sin let him cast the first stone. While your Judgeing me just know u will be judged also. I'm going to sum this whole conversation up in one line only and I am done with this topic,NO ONE is gonna change my view when it comes to JESUS and his teachings but JESUS himself! What anyone of u have to say about it is a moot point to me, because what is written is etched in my heart. Mans law don't mean Sugar Honey Iced Tea to me! Also understand this; I don't hate homosexuals, that discussion will be between them and GOD, I hate it when people try and force me to accept it!

How can anyone force you to accept homosexuality? Do you love homosexuals? Does Christ? Are you afraid of homosexuality? Do you believe that homosexuality will come to dominate society if it is not persecuted? Is homosexuality some sort of special sin, more destructive than other sins? Should we spend our time and resources fighting homosexuals socially and politically?

Did u miss the Michael Sam love fest on TV? That's what I'm speaking of, it's not your business how I feel about it, good or bad. I just wrote down my opinion. When you're raising kids, especially boys who love football and they see that fiasco with Sam and his partner, then turn to me asking why is that man kissing another man? Even kids know it's unnatural. And to answer all of your question.........NO, I fear nothing and NO man walking GODS green earth!

LOL! Actually, I did miss the "love fest" on TV.

But I have a question. Why not just explain to your boys why a man is kissing another man?

If they are really young, just say they love each other and let it go. If they are older, explain to them what homosexuality is. (Just don't forget to tell them that not everyone believes the way you do about it.) After all, they will encounter it again, with or without your presence.

I hate to defend war eagle6 on any point, but I understand his concern on some level. I would rather just not be forced to explain certain things to my kids at certain ages. Like when we were watching the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade this past year and they decided without any warning to show a selection from the Broadway show "Kinky Boots", complete with actual transvestites is skimpy outfits. My 8 year old was watching it with us. I would just prefer not to try and explain that some men like to dress up in racy women's clothing, wear makeup and try to look and act like women. I think that subject matter it too mature and confusing. Sure, when she exclaimed, "what is THAT?!?" (she could tell they were men dressed up like women), I was able to come up with something about it but this was a family program. I shouldn't be explaining transvestites to my 8-year old daughter. If that's something someone wanted to expose their kid to and talk about it at that age, such material is certainly accessible to them by their own free choice. But being surprised by it during a Thanksgiving Parade wasn't necessary.

We also had to do this on the subject of homosexuality recently when "Good Luck Charlie" decided it needed to have a show where the little girl's friend had two moms and they didn't mean a mom and stepmom. So we explained the Biblical concept of marriage to our kids but then explained that some people don't think that marriage is for just a man and a woman. They think it can be between two men or two women. We told them that we believe the Bible teaches that this is wrong but that we still love the people who believe that way and we don't make fun of them or treat them badly and that God loves them too. He doesn't want them to live this way just like He doesn't want us to sometimes do some of the things we do, but He still loves them just like He loves us. We should pray for them and treat them the way Jesus treated people.

Again...it was a discussion that was probably coming in another year or so. I would have preferred not to have it dropped into a kid's show without warning, forcing my hand.

Well, not having kids, I don't have any standing here either.

But fwiw, I empathize with you on this. The "liberalism" of the entertainment media has changed drastically in my lifetime regarding what and when it presents. (I think my favorite example in this regard is "Family Guy" which even uses a cartoon format to present stuff, although much of it is too quick and subtle for really young kids.)

I sounds like you handled it very well though. I think people often underestimate the ability of kids to learn stuff beyond their years without suffering trauma from it.

[homersapien 11,396]

OK, I get your point now. And I agree. But then, how can one basically tell another they are sinners because of who they are without evoking a strong defensive response?

As a non-Christian I certainly have no standing to provide advice, but if it were me, I just wouldn't go there at all. I don't think you should take on that moral responsibility for another person unless you already have a close relationship with them. Even then I just don't see how it would help, presuming they already know how you feel.

IMO, there's just no good way of directly telling someone else they should repent for their sins.

I guess that's just the cross we have to bear. No one, especially in this day, ever wants to be told anything they want to do is wrong. But as Christians we are called to speak the truth and we are commissioned to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Part of the gospel is the need for repentance. To fail to do so is akin to letting people drive off the cliff I mentioned earlier. It's not loving at all...it's monstrous and inhuman in fact.

It's one thing to present the concept in general. It's quite another to point out to someone that he or she needs to repent for being a homosexual.

Just to be clear, I understand the logic and motivation of Christians who are acting on their beliefs. My argument is that their belief (homosexuality is a sin) is simply wrong. That's the non-believers version of the "cross of truth" we have to bear in such discussions.

At least us non-believers aren't burdened by assumption we are letting you go to hell if we don't tell you.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

It's one thing to present the concept in general. It's quite another to point out to someone that he or she needs to repent for being a homosexual.

I don't think someone needs to repent for merely being gay anymore than I have to repent for finding women other than my wife attractive or even being tempted sexually in ways I cannot fulfill in a righteous manner.

Just to be clear, I understand the logic and motivation of Christians who are acting on their beliefs. My argument is that their belief (homosexuality is a sin) is simply wrong. That's the non-believers version of the "cross of truth" we have to bear in such discussions.

At least us non-believers aren't burdened by assumption we are letting you go to hell if we don't tell you.

I understand we disagree. But sometimes I don't think people really think about that last sentence as it pertains to Christians. Getting offended at someone telling you is the last thing on earth that should happen, unless they are constantly in your face over it. It shows they actually care about you. It's like Penn Gillette said about it (paraphrased)...if you don't tell me or you're too scared of offending me to tell me, then you don't really believe it. And if you do believe it and still don't tell me, then you are a horrible person.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

We are all guilty of a multitude of sins. To single this particular one out, seems utterly anti-Christian to me. What purpose does it serve?

See, I don't think they are singling it out. I think you happen to hear more about it because it is the cause célèbre of the moment and that makes it sound as if it's being singled out. But Christians in evangelical churches all over speak of many other things that are sin and that we should be on guard about and repent of if we are guilty of them such as greed, envy, other sexual sins, arrogance, lack of generosity and so on. I've been in the evangelical subculture for over 25 years in denominations as varied as Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, non-denominational and Anglican. I've heard more sermons that you could count. When they spoke on sin and repentance, homosexuality was hardly "singled out." In fact it wasn't talked about that much at all compared to some other things. The things in most of those places that were talked about the most were issues more of the heart that people can't always see more than the obvious external sins.

But regardless, do you think it ever reasonable or Christian to speak on sin and repentance? If so, when and on what subjects? If not, why not?

Certainly. However, I believe the primary focus should always be the love of Christ, His grace, and His Mercy. Sin, repentance, and grace are powerful concepts that can reinforce God's love. However, I have too often seen the message changed to sin, judgment, and damnation with some individuals who want to be judge, jury, and high executioner.

I am glad your experience has been different. I truly am. I am amazed by the number of people I have encountered who believe more in the God's rules than God's love and forgiveness. I am amazed by how many people I have encountered who seem to see God as a powerful ruler rather than a loving father. I must confess that I am often discouraged by those who seem to want Christianity to be an exclusive club for only the righteous rather than a salvation and haven for all sinners who repent and believe.

I hope that the actions of Christians will encourage others to reach out to Christ, not hide, or draw away from Him.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

I have experienced my share of legalistic rule followers. They were just the vocal but vast minority. The issue for me though is not to overreact to people who treat the Bible like the Rule Book ™ by deciding never to speak of any rules and only the warm fuzzies of love and grace, affirming everyone in their okayness. There is a time for just loving people and reserving comment...making sure they know you care about them before you say anything. But there is also a time for telling people uncomfortable truths. To me that example of Jesus with the woman about to be stoned for adultery is the perfect balance of this. Granted, not all of our situations necessarily have to be where all of these facets happen in the span of 5 minutes. It may take days, week or months to go from assuring someone that you love them and don't condemn them to "sin no more."

[AUFAN78 3,916]

Well done Titan and thank you!

[icanthearyou 4,463]

I have experienced my share of legalistic rule followers. They were just the vocal but vast minority. The issue for me though is not to overreact to people who treat the Bible like the Rule Book ™ by deciding never to speak of any rules and only the warm fuzzies of love and grace, affirming everyone in their okayness. There is a time for just loving people and reserving comment...making sure they know you care about them before you say anything. But there is also a time for telling people uncomfortable truths. To me that example of Jesus with the woman about to be stoned for adultery is the perfect balance of this. Granted, not all of our situations necessarily have to be where all of these facets happen in the span of 5 minutes. It may take days, week or months to go from assuring someone that you love them and don't condemn them to "sin no more."

I understand and agree with you. But, I believe the real truth is that we are all sinners and, our only hope is God's mercy and grace which come from his love for us. None of us are okay in our own right. We should take care not to imply that we are, by telling others they aren't. We are only okay through the love, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ. You can't get much more warm and fuzzy than that. I believe the goal is, to show appreciation for the mercy and grace by making an effort towards becoming a better person.

In short, yes, sometimes we need to convey to others what they may not want to hear but, at the same time, we should be sure that we are doing it out of love, we do it with understanding and compassion.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

I have experienced my share of legalistic rule followers. They were just the vocal but vast minority. The issue for me though is not to overreact to people who treat the Bible like the Rule Book ™ by deciding never to speak of any rules and only the warm fuzzies of love and grace, affirming everyone in their okayness. There is a time for just loving people and reserving comment...making sure they know you care about them before you say anything. But there is also a time for telling people uncomfortable truths. To me that example of Jesus with the woman about to be stoned for adultery is the perfect balance of this. Granted, not all of our situations necessarily have to be where all of these facets happen in the span of 5 minutes. It may take days, week or months to go from assuring someone that you love them and don't condemn them to "sin no more."

I understand and agree with you. But, I believe the real truth is that we are all sinners and, our only hope is God's mercy and grace which come from his love for us. None of us are okay in our own right. We should take care not to imply that we are, by telling others they aren't. We are only okay through the love, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ. You can't get much more warm and fuzzy than that. I believe the goal is, to show appreciation for the mercy and grace by making an effort towards becoming a better person.

In short, yes, sometimes we need to convey to others what they may not want to hear but, at the same time, we should be sure that we are doing it out of love, we do it with understanding and compassion.

I can't disagree with any of that.

[AUFAN78 3,916]

I have experienced my share of legalistic rule followers. They were just the vocal but vast minority. The issue for me though is not to overreact to people who treat the Bible like the Rule Book ™ by deciding never to speak of any rules and only the warm fuzzies of love and grace, affirming everyone in their okayness. There is a time for just loving people and reserving comment...making sure they know you care about them before you say anything. But there is also a time for telling people uncomfortable truths. To me that example of Jesus with the woman about to be stoned for adultery is the perfect balance of this. Granted, not all of our situations necessarily have to be where all of these facets happen in the span of 5 minutes. It may take days, week or months to go from assuring someone that you love them and don't condemn them to "sin no more."

I understand and agree with you. But, I believe the real truth is that we are all sinners and, our only hope is God's mercy and grace which come from his love for us. None of us are okay in our own right. We should take care not to imply that we are, by telling others they aren't. We are only okay through the love, mercy, and grace of Jesus Christ. You can't get much more warm and fuzzy than that. I believe the goal is, to show appreciation for the mercy and grace by making an effort towards becoming a better person.

In short, yes, sometimes we need to convey to others what they may not want to hear but, at the same time, we should be sure that we are doing it out of love, we do it with understanding and compassion.

Very well done Ichy.

[homersapien 11,396]

It's one thing to present the concept in general. It's quite another to point out to someone that he or she needs to repent for being a homosexual.

I don't think someone needs to repent for merely being gay anymore than I have to repent for finding women other than my wife attractive or even being tempted sexually in ways I cannot fulfill in a righteous manner.

In other words, they have a right to be gay, they just don't have the right to live what they are. Is that correct?

[homersapien 11,396]

I understand we disagree. But sometimes I don't think people really think about that last sentence as it pertains to Christians. Getting offended at someone telling you ___________ (are a sinner for being gay?) is the last thing on earth that should happen, unless they are constantly in your face over it.

?? - presumably that is more or less what you meant.

It shows they actually care about you. It's like Penn Gillette said about it (paraphrased)...if you don't tell me or you're too scared of offending me to tell me, then you don't really believe it. And if you do believe it and still don't tell me, then you are a horrible person.

Well, maybe to you.

But to people who don't share your views, it probably appears as a judgemental accusation coming from a religiously-motivated bigot.

[Weegle777 78]

Do you know what repent means?

[TitanTiger 20,499]

It's one thing to present the concept in general. It's quite another to point out to someone that he or she needs to repent for being a homosexual.

I don't think someone needs to repent for merely being gay anymore than I have to repent for finding women other than my wife attractive or even being tempted sexually in ways I cannot fulfill in a righteous manner.

In other words, they have a right to be gay, they just don't have the right to live what they are. Is that correct?

Those are your words not mine.

What I'm saying is, we're all born into this world with certain traits of personality, weaknesses, struggles, things that tempt us, crosses to bear. They are not who we are. They alone do not define us. And wanting something that isn't good for us or is even a sin to pursue is not sinful in and of itself. It is no sin to struggle or be tempted. What we do with that is what matters.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

I understand we disagree. But sometimes I don't think people really think about that last sentence as it pertains to Christians. Getting offended at someone telling you ___________ (are a sinner for being gay?) is the last thing on earth that should happen, unless they are constantly in your face over it.

?? - presumably that is more or less what you meant.

It shows they actually care about you. It's like Penn Gillette said about it (paraphrased)...if you don't tell me or you're too scared of offending me to tell me, then you don't really believe it. And if you do believe it and still don't tell me, then you are a horrible person.

Well, maybe to you.

But to people who don't share your views, it probably appears as a judgemental accusation coming from a religiously-motivated bigot.

Maybe it does. I can only show them that's not true. I can't help it that modern society these days has deceived itself into believing that virtually the only sin there is is the sin of believing there's such as thing as sin to begin with.

[AUDub 11,158]

...they just don't have the right...

Speaking of rights, another barrier came down today.

For a Bush appointee, that John Jones III sure is growing on me.

[AUFAN78 3,916]

It's one thing to present the concept in general. It's quite another to point out to someone that he or she needs to repent for being a homosexual.

I don't think someone needs to repent for merely being gay anymore than I have to repent for finding women other than my wife attractive or even being tempted sexually in ways I cannot fulfill in a righteous manner.

In other words, they have a right to be gay, they just don't have the right to live what they are. Is that correct?

Those are your words not mine.

What I'm saying is, we're all born into this world with certain traits of personality, weaknesses, struggles, things that tempt us, crosses to bear. They are not who we are. They alone do not define us. And wanting something that isn't good for us or is even a sin to pursue is not sinful in and of itself. It is no sin to struggle or be tempted. What we do with that is what matters.

BRAVO!

[AUFAN78 3,916]

I understand we disagree. But sometimes I don't think people really think about that last sentence as it pertains to Christians. Getting offended at someone telling you ___________ (are a sinner for being gay?) is the last thing on earth that should happen, unless they are constantly in your face over it.

?? - presumably that is more or less what you meant.

It shows they actually care about you. It's like Penn Gillette said about it (paraphrased)...if you don't tell me or you're too scared of offending me to tell me, then you don't really believe it. And if you do believe it and still don't tell me, then you are a horrible person.

Well, maybe to you.

But to people who don't share your views, it probably appears as a judgemental accusation coming from a religiously-motivated bigot.

Maybe it does. I can only show them that's not true. I can't help it that modern society these days has deceived itself into believing that virtually the only sin there is is the sin of believing there's such as thing as sin to begin with.

Very well stated Titan. You sir have the patience of Job. Very well done.

[homersapien 11,396]

It's one thing to present the concept in general. It's quite another to point out to someone that he or she needs to repent for being a homosexual.

I don't think someone needs to repent for merely being gay anymore than I have to repent for finding women other than my wife attractive or even being tempted sexually in ways I cannot fulfill in a righteous manner.

In other words, they have a right to be gay, they just don't have the right to live what they are. Is that correct?

Those are your words not mine.

What I'm saying is, we're all born into this world with certain traits of personality, weaknesses, struggles, things that tempt us, crosses to bear. They are not who we are. They alone do not define us. And wanting something that isn't good for us or is even a sin to pursue is not sinful in and of itself. It is no sin to struggle or be tempted. What we do with that is what matters.

That's why I said "in other words". And it sounds like I got it right.

But I fail to see how denying one's sexuality based on a false religious conviction could be a good thing.

[McLoofus 35,182]

It's one thing to present the concept in general. It's quite another to point out to someone that he or she needs to repent for being a homosexual.

I don't think someone needs to repent for merely being gay anymore than I have to repent for finding women other than my wife attractive or even being tempted sexually in ways I cannot fulfill in a righteous manner.

In other words, they have a right to be gay, they just don't have the right to live what they are. Is that correct?

Those are your words not mine.

What I'm saying is, we're all born into this world with certain traits of personality, weaknesses, struggles, things that tempt us, crosses to bear. They are not who we are. They alone do not define us. And wanting something that isn't good for us or is even a sin to pursue is not sinful in and of itself. It is no sin to struggle or be tempted. What we do with that is what matters.

So you agree that homosexuals are born and not made? But they just kinda have to deal with it and be denied romantically fulfilling and legally recognized relationships for their entire lives? And you deal with the same "crosses to bear" that they do, such as being bullied, ostracized and legally discriminated against, even though you're free to marry somebody you love and find attractive and they're not?