Food for Thought

[FoundationEagle 637]

Blah blah blah. How about outside of those two games we are still 0-6...that good enough?  How about, with the talent we have, 90 percent of offensive coaches would have called better plays that allowed us to beat Clemson and uga.... and 90 percent of offensive coaches would have (1) realized his QB was hurt and incapable in atleast 1 of the last 2 uga  games, if not both and (2) would have had some sort of backup plan. Good enough?

[WarEagleFromHoover 70]

8 hours ago, Leftfield said:

And the miracle play should never have been necessary.....Murray's knee was down.

True 

[autigeremt 6,788]

And we dominated that game for 3 1/2 quarters only to blow it and force that outcome.

But I'll take it! Second best feeling I've ever had at a football game. It was at the top for a week!  

[tigerbrotha12 2,362]

13 hours ago, imaolgatiger said:

If we want to talk about miracles, if Tre is tackled by FSU at the 15, we  score, run the clock, etc.

If we don't fumble, recover with our guy on the ground and the refs give TAMU the ball, we probably win that game and may not fall apart in 2014. 

If if and buts were candy and nuts...

 

In regards to the 2014 TAMU Game: 

if that doesn't happen and we run it into win, I doubt Gus's seat is even remotely warm right now. That game changed the entire atmosphere around AU Fball and it's never quite been the same except for the 6-game stretch we had this year. 

[tigerbrotha12 2,362]

8 hours ago, FoundationEagle said:

Blah blah blah. How about outside of those two games we are still 0-6...that good enough?  How about, with the talent we have, 90 percent of offensive coaches would have called better plays that allowed us to beat Clemson and uga.... and 90 percent of offensive coaches would have (1) realized his QB was hurt and incapable in atleast 1 of the last 2 uga  games, if not both and (2) would have had some sort of backup plan. Good enough?

So what would you suggest we do?? Who would you go after now?? Would you fire a coach who is probably good for at least 9 wins or so per year just so you can get some up and comer who's gonna take 2-3 more years to figure it out anyways!!? Let Gus develop! I highly doubt he's a moron. Stubborn? Yes- but we all know his offense works better with a DT qb and we haven't had one as good as Nick marshall. Contrary to belief, Cam newtons and Nick Marshalls are not growing on trees. Dual Threat quarterbacks don't line up to come here, but we have brought in enough to be successful! We all thought JJ was going to be a fine predecessor to NM. Lesson 1 learned for Gus- don't put eggs in same basket.

We thought JF3 could be learned to call offense and be the next great thing. Lesson 2: not everyone can be taught well to play SEC quarterback. 

He brought Woody in last year, but he's not ready to play his true freshman year! That leaves one year, 2015, unnaccounted for that a viable DT qb was not present on the team, and Gus even thought we had one. If someone asks me if I'm defending Gus, heck yeah I am. While he doesn't make every right decision, he's learning. Consistency at the top is what stabilizes a program, and I cannot support pulling a UGA and firing a coach that is generally pretty successful every year. 

Its hard for us to realize, but Alabama is in the middle of a dynasty. We are not Alabama, because they are an anomaly. You ask why can't we get the players and coaches that they bring in? It's because Nick Saban is a darn good football coach and football team CEO and a darn good leader. He is a big deal, and the turds have the right to call him a great coach because he is that. No, we are not Alabama, but we win games, and we rarely are blown out in losses under Malzahn. 

Am I okay with mediocrity, no, but I'm a believer in not knowing what you have until it's not there anymore. I'm willing to let Gus learn how to be great, and truly build his program based on experience. That is how we will become a dynasty. Not with a "fresh start" again. With some trust in our boys to get the job done, and some leeway to find out what works! If that takes a period of only 8-10 wins per season before we become that great team, I'd much rather have that than a few season struggling to make a bowl game, and not really even being sure the next coach would even be able to turn us into a great team. (Example: Tennessee & Butch Jones).

I really hope my point is heard here: do not fire Gus because you think someone else could do it better. If his wins go down next year, and we look the same as we have, then yes, by all means, but do NOT look past results. The Sugar Bowl is the sugar bowl, regardless of how we go there. Do not make the mistake of taking a huge risk on something you know is solid to try for the next best flashy thing. Sometimes, you end up with a Golden bag of trash, and a coach you had who has finally figured it out elsewhere. 

[AUsince72 11,084]

So... All arguments about luck, coaching, skill, hand of God aside.... What you're saying is that Gus is 2-8 vs Auburn's main 2 rivals. (& 0-6 since his first year.) Roger that.

Hopefully he turns it around next year.

War Eagle.

[FoundationEagle 637]

5 minutes ago, AUsince72 said:

So... All arguments about luck, coaching, skill, hand of God aside.... What you're saying is that Gus is 2-8 vs Auburn's main 2 rivals. (& 0-6 since his first year.) Roger that.

Hopefully he turns it around next year.

War Eagle.

2-6 and 0-6, but yes. The real issue is him NOT learning. Lost the uga game 2 years in a row for the same exact reason. Playing an injured Sean White that was too injured to do anything well and not having any remotely successful backup plan. If he actually was learning, I'd give him a pass. Instead he constantly doubles down on failed plans. I don't consider it learning when you hire a DC that works out. Everyone knows you have to hire good people to coach the side of the ball you aren't focused on. I don't call it learning when he and his OC continue to put forth horrendous game plans in crucial games and zero changes are made (other than supposed play caller, which 2 games later was back to exactly the same...what a lesson they learned!). I've said it before and I'll say it again, unless he overhauls the offense with a new OC, I can no longer support him.  I personally believe Rhett needs to run to the hills before he ends up drowning as the bus dives into the ocean. If he stays, they are both creating their own demise. 

[I_M4_AU 8,131]

5 hours ago, tigerbrotha12 said:

So what would you suggest we do?? Who would you go after now?? Would you fire a coach who is probably good for at least 9 wins or so per year just so you can get some up and comer who's gonna take 2-3 more years to figure it out anyways!!? Let Gus develop! I highly doubt he's a moron. Stubborn? Yes- but we all know his offense works better with a DT qb and we haven't had one as good as Nick marshall. Contrary to belief, Cam newtons and Nick Marshalls are not growing on trees. Dual Threat quarterbacks don't line up to come here, but we have brought in enough to be successful! We all thought JJ was going to be a fine predecessor to NM. Lesson 1 learned for Gus- don't put eggs in same basket.

We thought JF3 could be learned to call offense and be the next great thing. Lesson 2: not everyone can be taught well to play SEC quarterback. 

He brought Woody in last year, but he's not ready to play his true freshman year! That leaves one year, 2015, unnaccounted for that a viable DT qb was not present on the team, and Gus even thought we had one. If someone asks me if I'm defending Gus, heck yeah I am. While he doesn't make every right decision, he's learning. Consistency at the top is what stabilizes a program, and I cannot support pulling a UGA and firing a coach that is generally pretty successful every year. 

Its hard for us to realize, but Alabama is in the middle of a dynasty. We are not Alabama, because they are an anomaly. You ask why can't we get the players and coaches that they bring in? It's because Nick Saban is a darn good football coach and football team CEO and a darn good leader. He is a big deal, and the turds have the right to call him a great coach because he is that. No, we are not Alabama, but we win games, and we rarely are blown out in losses under Malzahn. 

Am I okay with mediocrity, no, but I'm a believer in not knowing what you have until it's not there anymore. I'm willing to let Gus learn how to be great, and truly build his program based on experience. That is how we will become a dynasty. Not with a "fresh start" again. With some trust in our boys to get the job done, and some leeway to find out what works! If that takes a period of only 8-10 wins per season before we become that great team, I'd much rather have that than a few season struggling to make a bowl game, and not really even being sure the next coach would even be able to turn us into a great team. (Example: Tennessee & Butch Jones).

I really hope my point is heard here: do not fire Gus because you think someone else could do it better. If his wins go down next year, and we look the same as we have, then yes, by all means, but do NOT look past results. The Sugar Bowl is the sugar bowl, regardless of how we go there. Do not make the mistake of taking a huge risk on something you know is solid to try for the next best flashy thing. Sometimes, you end up with a Golden bag of trash, and a coach you had who has finally figured it out elsewhere. 

I'm not on the fire Gus bandwagon at this time, however, I've been critical of Gus' trends over the past two seasons.  I know he is a coach in training, but he has to learn from his mistakes and he doesn't seem to.  The bolded statements you made are an example of what I mean.

Why aren't DT QBs lining up to come here?  That's a question I can't answer, but Gus has missed on a few and the ones he brought here were so talented all Gus and Rhett had to do was not screw them up.  They had the it factor and Auburn did not have to compete to get them here.  Nick's other offers were, I believe, Texas and Buffalo and Cam came to Auburn because his father's dealing with MSU late in the process and it was close to home (this is my conjecture, nothing more).

Your next point concerning JJ also pertains to JFIII and why I am concerned that Gus doesn't learn from prior mistakes.  Gus put all his eggs in JJ for the 2015 season and like wise put all his spring/fall practice time in propping up JFIII to be a viable SEC QB.  So much so that he didn't have a clear front runner for the QB position going into the Clemson game and as it turns out, Gus didn't develop him enough to back up SW when he was hurt in UGA game or to start him during the Alabama A&M game.  I still don't know who the #2 QB is at this moment.  So, Gus didn't learn lesson 1.

Lesson 2 also goes back to JJ.  Gus had no clue JJ had issues with reading defenses.  Why is this?  Gus is the head coach, did he not put JJ in difficult situations during spring/fall camps?  I have no clue, but this is where you find out about the talent you have.  Enter JFIII, Rhett evaluated both him and Jarrod Evans (VT QB) and choose JFIII as Gus was desperate to get a DT QB on campus.  Did you watch the VT/Clemson game?  Evans was a bruiser and played very well, I can imagine him and Bubba in the same back field this year and next.  It all goes back to evaluating talent.

There are a lot of red flags that Gus is popping up and this off season will be interesting.  Right now all the talk of Rhett getting a HC job has quelled as he is supposed to be the reason JS is still considering us. What if Stidham decides to go somewhere else?  Where does that leave Gus and Rhett?  Will WB have developed enough to earn the trust of Gus?  Will LN come in and win the job as a true freshman or does he stick with LSU?  

I'm taking a wait and see attitude right now, hoping for the best.

[keesler 5,934]

7 hours ago, tigerbrotha12 said:

In regards to the 2014 TAMU Game: 

if that doesn't happen and we run it into win, I doubt Gus's seat is even remotely warm right now. That game changed the entire atmosphere around AU Fball and it's never quite been the same except for the 6-game stretch we had this year. 

That makes it sound like the AU team is mentally weak (staff included) that a single loss sends the program spiraling into a decline for nearly 2 more years.  

[keesler 5,934]

1 hour ago, AUsince72 said:

So... All arguments about luck, coaching, skill, hand of God aside.... What you're saying is that Gus is 2-8 vs Auburn's main 2 rivals. (& 0-6 since his first year.) Roger that.

Hopefully he turns it around next year.

War Eagle.

Hope springs eternal.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

Why aren't DT QBs lining up to come here?  That's a question I can't answer

I can answer it... because we don't run an offense that highlights their full ability.  We are a run first offense. The spotlight is firmly locked on our running backs. The last highlight reel QB we had is now a defensive back. The only QB we've placed in the league in anything resembling recent history was a phenom who would have gone to the NFL no matter where he played. When there are only 1-2 real Power 5 ready dual-threats per year, there are too many other programs that look more promising to their egos (no, that's not a slam... QBs love the spotlight... they always have). The only way we are ever going to get a QB pipeline going is to land a really good one and let him shine... then choose his predecessor wisely. Once we have more than one NFL quality QB in a row, we will start to be on their short list.

[I_M4_AU 8,131]

23 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I can answer it... because we don't run an offense that highlights their full ability.  We are a run first offense. The spotlight is firmly locked on our running backs. The last highlight reel QB we had is now a defensive back. The only QB we've placed in the league in anything resembling recent history was a phenom who would have gone to the NFL no matter where he played. When there are only 1-2 real Power 5 ready dual-threats per year, there are too many other programs that look more promising to their egos (no, that's not a slam... QBs love the spotlight... they always have). The only way we are ever going to get a QB pipeline going is to land a really good one and let him shine... then choose his predecessor wisely. Once we have more than one NFL quality QB in a row, we will start to be on their short list.

I can see your point, however, we aren't even getting a look by many of the rest of the DT QB guys.  I too, believe it's Gus' system and nothing more.  Auburn needs to evolve to a more balanced attack to attract some of the good QBs.  Stidham seems to be a QB that can excel in our system, but he would be a better fit at T A&M or Ol Miss because of their offensive system.  We don't know where he will go and the only reason LN is looking at us again is due to a coaching change and he is uncertain of his future at LSU.  This is part of the red flags Gus' coaching tenure is showing after 4 years.  Is Gus capable enough to evolve his system?Will his ego allow it to be evolved?  Can he change to a more balanced system with the personnel he has surrounding him?

Time will tell.

[aubaseball 2,696]

Every game there is an element of luck involved in winning.   To deny this is being a real homer.   Now the issue of QB recruiting, I believe the issue is evaluation of talent and knowing what type of player you want.   I don't believe Gus knows exactly what type of player he wants or he wants both on his team.  Then he gets the option of choosing what type of offense he wants to run.   I don't know if he knows what he wants.   

[lionheartkc 6,150]

30 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I can see your point, however, we aren't even getting a look by many of the rest of the DT QB guys.  I too, believe it's Gus' system and nothing more.  Auburn needs to evolve to a more balanced attack to attract some of the good QBs.  Stidham seems to be a QB that can excel in our system, but he would be a better fit at T A&M or Ol Miss because of their offensive system.  We don't know where he will go and the only reason LN is looking at us again is due to a coaching change and he is uncertain of his future at LSU.  This is part of the red flags Gus' coaching tenure is showing after 4 years.  Is Gus capable enough to evolve his system?Will his ego allow it to be evolved?  Can he change to a more balanced system with the personnel he has surrounding him?

See... I totally disagree that the system, itself, is the problem.  Every year, Gus's "system" has evolved (all be it slowly) to his players. If we were to have a Stidham available, I have no doubt our system would very quickly become more balanced. What happens, however is that we have QBs who are run first... or very accurate passers who don't have a home run ball, and Gus goes with the hot hand which, year after year, are our backs. If we got a QB in who could hit the home run ball (as well as the other passes), we would become balanced like in 2010 (maybe even more so, since Cam wasn't a refined passer either).  The thing is, we need that QB to run that system to be able to show that we can/will run it to prospects.

As for the "rest" of the Dual-Threat QBs, we get looks from a lot of them, and we pass... I'm not sure why, maybe we have stars in our eyes.

[WarDamnEagleWDE 12,737]

44 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I can see your point, however, we aren't even getting a look by many of the rest of the DT QB guys.  I too, believe it's Gus' system and nothing more.  Auburn needs to evolve to a more balanced attack to attract some of the good QBs.  Stidham seems to be a QB that can excel in our system, but he would be a better fit at T A&M or Ol Miss because of their offensive system.  We don't know where he will go and the only reason LN is looking at us again is due to a coaching change and he is uncertain of his future at LSU.  This is part of the red flags Gus' coaching tenure is showing after 4 years.  Is Gus capable enough to evolve his system?Will his ego allow it to be evolved?  Can he change to a more balanced system with the personnel he has surrounding him?

Time will tell.

That is kinda of telling isn't it. 

[ellitor 33,117]

46 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I can see your point, however, we aren't even getting a look by many of the rest of the DT QB guys.  I too, believe it's Gus' system and nothing more.  Auburn needs to evolve to a more balanced attack to attract some of the good QBs.  Stidham seems to be a QB that can excel in our system, but he would be a better fit at T A&M or Ol Miss because of their offensive system.  We don't know where he will go and the only reason LN is looking at us again is due to a coaching change and he is uncertain of his future at LSU.  This is part of the red flags Gus' coaching tenure is showing after 4 years.  Is Gus capable enough to evolve his system?Will his ego allow it to be evolved?  Can he change to a more balanced system with the personnel he has surrounding him?

Time will tell.

To be fair there have not been many DT QB recruits the past few years that turned out to be quality players.

[I_M4_AU 8,131]

45 minutes ago, ellitor said:

To be fair there have not been many DT QB recruits the past few years that turned out to be quality players.

You're more up on it than I am, but it is my understanding that Lamar Jackson was interested in us and we probably could have had Jarod Evans last year.  It's all a crap shoot with the QBs I know, but there are good ones out there.  They just have to be evaluated.

[I_M4_AU 8,131]

1 hour ago, lionheartkc said:

See... I totally disagree that the system, itself, is the problem.  Every year, Gus's "system" has evolved (all be it slowly) to his players. If we were to have a Stidham available, I have no doubt our system would very quickly become more balanced. What happens, however is that we have QBs who are run first... or very accurate passers who don't have a home run ball, and Gus goes with the hot hand which, year after year, are our backs. If we got a QB in who could hit the home run ball (as well as the other passes), we would become balanced like in 2010 (maybe even more so, since Cam wasn't a refined passer either).  The thing is, we need that QB to run that system to be able to show that we can/will run it to prospects.

As for the "rest" of the Dual-Threat QBs, we get looks from a lot of them, and we pass... I'm not sure why, maybe we have stars in our eyes.

That's kind of a chicken or the egg thing.  SW is a capable enough passer to have a more balanced offense, but Gus hasn't changed much if at all.  We still run the ball 64+% of the time, I saw a stat during the intro to the B1G Championship game that showed the top 3 running teams in the nation.  1st was Wisconsin followed by Auburn and then I think PSU.  I'd be shocked if we got Stidham and we even had a 60-40 run to pass balance. JMO.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

That's kind of a chicken or the egg thing.  SW is a capable enough passer to have a more balanced offense, but Gus hasn't changed much if at all.  We still run the ball 64+% of the time, I saw a stat during the intro to the B1G Championship game that showed the top 3 running teams in the nation.  1st was Wisconsin followed by Auburn and then I think PSU.  I'd be shocked if we got Stidham and we even had a 60-40 run to pass balance. JMO.

I think the reason Gus is holding Sean back is primarily because he's shown that he's not a true deep threat as of yet. Gus's big thing is protecting the ball, and intermediate passes, even with a pinpoint accurate QB, are a much bigger turnover threat than pounding it on the ground. If he had a QB that could frequently hit the deep route, and pick up third and medium, I think we'd be closer to 50/50.  I don't think Gus will ever go more pass than rush... even with the best QB in the NCAA on his team, but I don't think he needs to to land a great QB... just give them enough for a highlight reel and a chance to play for championships.

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

1 hour ago, aubaseball said:

Every game there is an element of luck involved in winning.   To deny this is being a real homer.   Now the issue of QB recruiting, I believe the issue is evaluation of talent and knowing what type of player you want.   I don't believe Gus knows exactly what type of player he wants or he wants both on his team.  Then he gets the option of choosing what type of offense he wants to run.   I don't know if he knows what he wants.   

Again the only homer is the one that believes in luck. Footballs don't bounce straight. That is life . Good players will be in position to make the plays. It has nothing to do with luck. That ball is going to bounce right, left ,forward or backward. It has nothing to do with luck and all to do with how the football impacts the field. The difference in a winner and a loser is how hard you go after that ball after it bounces. People who believe in luck are the same people who never accomplish anything and blame all their failures on someone else. Winners just go out and play it as it lies.  At Auburn we have winners. WDE

[I_M4_AU 8,131]

1 minute ago, lionheartkc said:

I think the reason Gus is holding Sean back is primarily because he's shown that he's not a true deep threat as of yet. Gus's big thing is protecting the ball, and intermediate passes, even with a pinpoint accurate QB, are a much bigger turnover threat than pounding it on the ground. If he had a QB that could frequently hit the deep route, and pick up third and medium, I think we'd be closer to 50/50.  I don't think Gus will ever go more pass than rush... even with the best QB in the NCAA on his team, but I don't think he needs to to land a great QB... just give them enough for a highlight reel and a chance to play for championships.

I agree that Gus likes to protect the ball at all costs and that's why he likes to run the ball.  There will be a lot of interesting developments this off season.  It should be entertaining. 

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

And for all of those blaming Gus for not recruiting good QBs lets at least give WB a shot before we decide he can't be the QB we envisioned.  He has not had even a remote shot at being the QB yet. I don't know if he succeeds or fails but I sure think it's too early to be writing him off. WDE

[Eagle Eye 7 2,535]

2 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I agree that Gus likes to protect the ball at all costs and that's why he likes to run the ball.  There will be a lot of interesting developments this off season.  It should be entertaining. 

Actually it has been Gus's MO through the years to air it out deep periodically just to keep the defense honest. Look back at NM or CN. So I don't think the lack of the deep passes had anything to do with Gus's wishes. WDE

[ellitor 33,117]

24 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

You're more up on it than I am, but it is my understanding that Lamar Jackson was interested in us and we probably could have had Jarod Evans last year.  It's all a crap shoot with the QBs I know, but there are good ones out there.  They just have to be evaluated.

Lamar did want in but he was not a big time recruit. He was a major project. Petrino has done a hell of a job developing him. And yes Evans wanted in but those 2 are exceptions to how DT QBs have developed the past few years. Throw Deshaun in there too.

[AUsince72 11,084]

4 hours ago, FoundationEagle said:

2-6 and 0-6, but yes. The real issue is him NOT learning. Lost the uga game 2 years in a row for the same exact reason. Playing an injured Sean White that was too injured to do anything well and not having any remotely successful backup plan. If he actually was learning, I'd give him a pass. Instead he constantly doubles down on failed plans. I don't consider it learning when you hire a DC that works out. Everyone knows you have to hire good people to coach the side of the ball you aren't focused on. I don't call it learning when he and his OC continue to put forth horrendous game plans in crucial games and zero changes are made (other than supposed play caller, which 2 games later was back to exactly the same...what a lesson they learned!). I've said it before and I'll say it again, unless he overhauls the offense with a new OC, I can no longer support him.  I personally believe Rhett needs to run to the hills before he ends up drowning as the bus dives into the ocean. If he stays, they are both creating their own demise. 

Learning is the operative word.  Yes, exactly.  I posted more than my share of thoughts early in the season (feels like 2 years ago, now...) about how I was willing to cut Gus slack as long as he showed signs of that very thing; that he was learning.

Well, he obviously doesn't care what I think but I have lost all but the smallest molecule of faith in his abilities to be a HC in the SEC (West, for that matter).  There's been just too many head-scratchers the last season alone.

But as @keesler said, hope springs eternal, so I'll support the team again next year like the lemming I am.