St. Patrick’s Day

[Tigermike 3,050]

With St. Patrick’s Day coming up, I thought maybe a discussion Irish politics and Irish terrorists might be interesting.

I don’t think we have ever discussed the “troubles” in Northern Ireland. I know little about it other than it has been going on for 300 – 400 years if not longer. While they want to portray the conflict as being aimed at British rule, it is primarily Catholic vs. Protestant. I think if the British were to pull out, there would very possibly be open war with the Catholics and Protestants bombing and fighting daily. With innocent people targeted regularly.

It also seems to me that when President Bush declared war on terrorism that the IRA was quick to declare a cease fire and proclaim they would no longer be bombing people. Do you think they were thinking the Brits and Yanks would call them out as terrorists and take them on as well?

What does Sinn Fein say about them selves? Among other things:

Sinn Féin has a vision that sees beyond the present conflict and beyond the present phase of Irish history. The party's vision foresees the unity of the people of this island. It is a vision for the redistribution of wealth, for the well-being of the aged, for the advancement of youth, for the liberation of women and for the protection of Irish children. It is a vision for a free Ireland and a free people.

http://sinnfein.org/

The British list the following as Terrorists groups.

Proscribed Irish groups

* Continuity Army Council

* Cumann na mBan

* Fianna na hEireann

* Irish National Liberation Army

* Irish People's Liberation Organisation

* Irish Republican Army

* Loyalist Volunteer Force

* Orange Volunteers

* Red Hand Commando

* Red Hand Defenders

* Saor Eire

* Ulster Defence Association

* Ulster Freedom Fighters

* Ulster Volunteer Force

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/terrorism/threat/groups/#ni

The US State Dept list the following as terrorist groups.

* Irish Republican Army (IRA) (1916-present) **

* Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) (1969-present)

* Splinter group of the 'Official' IRA.

* Supporters of the PIRA split from 'Official' Sinn Féin to form Provisional Sinn Féin. Provisional Sinn Féin was later known simply as Sinn Féin (while 'Official' Sinn Féin eventually became the Workers' Party).

* Under ceasefire since the Good Friday Agreement of 1997

* Splinter groups:

* Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (1986-present)

* Also known as the "Continuity Army Council" and "Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for 'Volunteers of Ireland')

* Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) (1997-present) *

* Also known as the True IRA and Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for Volunteers of Ireland).

* Does not recognize Belfast Agreement.

* Irish National Liberation Army

* Ulster Defence Association (UDA) (1971-present) **

* Also called the "Ulster Freedom Fighters," or UFF.

* On February 22, 2003, announced a "complete and utter cessation" of all acts of violence for one year. It said it will review its ceasefire every three months.

* Splinter group:

* Red Hand Defenders (1998-present) **

* UDA splinter group. Opposes ceasefire.

* Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) (May 1966-present)

* Very closely linked with the Red Hand Commandos (1972-present).

* Ulster Defense Force (UVP) **

* Loyalist Volunteer Force (disbanded)

* Orange Volunteers

Pre-Independence Irish Nationalists

* Fenian Brotherhood (19th century, disbanded)

Irish Nationalists (Ulster)

* Irish Republican Army (IRA) (1916-present) **

* Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) (1969-present)

* Splinter group of the 'Official' IRA.

* Supporters of the PIRA split from 'Official' Sinn Féin to form Provisional Sinn Féin. Provisional Sinn Féin was later known simply as Sinn Féin (while 'Official' Sinn Féin eventually became the Workers' Party).

* Under ceasefire since the Good Friday Agreement of 1997

* Splinter groups:

* Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (1986-present)

* Also known as the "Continuity Army Council" and "Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for 'Volunteers of Ireland')

* Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA) (1997-present) *

* Also known as the True IRA and Óglaigh na hÉireann (Gaelic for Volunteers of Ireland).

* Does not recognize Belfast Agreement.

* Irish National Liberation Army

* Protestant Supremacists (Ulster)

* Ulster Defence Association (UDA) (1971-present) **

* Also called the "Ulster Freedom Fighters," or UFF.

* On February 22, 2003, announced a "complete and utter cessation" of all acts of violence for one year. It said it will review its ceasefire every three months.

* Splinter group:

* Red Hand Defenders (1998-present) **

* UDA splinter group. Opposes ceasefire.

* Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) (May 1966-present)

* Very closely linked with the Red Hand Commandos (1972-present).

* Ulster Defense Force (UVP) **

* Loyalist Volunteer Force (disbanded)

* Orange Volunteers

link

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/2004/37191.htm

*

[AUloggerhead 2,252]

As an Amercan of Irish ancestry, I cringed when I saw the title of your thread and then read the content. St Patrick brought Christianity to Ireland and helped convert the inhabitants with no bloodshed whatsoever. The modern day gangsters in Ireland today that you listed above really have nothing in common with St Patrick other than a shared piece of geography.

Having said that, the resulting hodge podge of "organizations" that carry on the terrorist activity in N. Ireland are the result of British mismanagement over the last 80-something years since Ireland was divided into a Free State & the 6 counties of N. Ireland. Even before that, the 600-odd years of British dominion over Ireland was nothing short of catatrosphic for the Irish people -- economic & physical enslavement, starvation & genocide make up the one-sided history between Britain & Ireland. Before you settle on this being a simplistic assessment of a Catholic vs Protestant issue, you should know that there is quite a bit of baggage associated with it. Oh yeah, Happy St Patrick's Day.

[Tigermike 3,050]

Being an American of Scots Irish ancestry, I haven's settled on a simplistic assessment of a Catholic vs. Protestant answer. I feel like there is plenty of blame to go around on all sides. My statement “While they want to portray the conflict as being aimed at British rule, it is primarily Catholic vs. Protestant”, was not meant to simplify the situation nor was it to deny the British causes of the conflict. The Catholic vs. Protestant aspect is in my mind the clannish appearance of the entire situation. Over the years there has been more terrorism aimed at Irish by Irish than there has been aimed toward the British.

Having grown up here in the United States, I don’t really understand hatred and bigotry aimed toward either Catholic’s or Protestant’s simply because they are Catholics or Protestants. Nor can I really comprehend having to live in a certain section of town or the country because I am either a Catholic or Protestant. It appears to me that their separating into Catholic and Protestant enclaves is more clannish than religious.

Here is what I know, or was told when I was in Ireland

A) The troubles aren't specifically religious, just that beliefs for or against British rule in Northern Ireland tend to run along party lines (i.e., in US a lot of religious conservatives tend to follow Republican party lines.)

The Republic of Ireland (Dublin and rest of Ireland not governed by Britain) is one of the economically fastest growing countries in the European Union (or it was when I was there)

C) The troubles started when Britain started to colonize Ireland, the Irish didn't take too kindly to it, (remember the US fought for its independence also) and fought back, yes sometimes through terror, but they thought the Brits were terrorists with all the killings they carried out.

D) The Irish people have always (after it appeared there) followed Catholicism, during the dark ages, catholic monks, who went to Islands of the coast of Scotland, kept religious study alive. Irish Monks wrote the Book of Kells, which is still on display in Dublin, in a time when education was almost nonexistent. Irish Monks also went into the mainland of Europe and Britain and established some of the earliest churches and monasteries.

So, that is what I know about that subject, some want Britain to continue in Northern Ireland, others don't. When I was in Scotland I did meet some people from N. Ireland, and they do not allow you to refer to them as Irish, only Northern Irish. So no matter where you are in Ireland they are proud and adamant about who and what they are.

[Piglet 0]

My understanding is that the Protestants, who are a majority in the counties of northern Ireland, but would be a minority in a united Ireland, are afraid that, if the British withdrew from the north, Ireland would become a "Catholic state" and the protestants would be oppressed. Therefore, the Protestants want to maintain ties with England, because they see that as self-preservation.

This is why as an American Christian I have sympathy for separation of church and state. People of like-minded religion should associate as they please without official approval or censure from the Government. Caesar's to Caesar and God's to God. If the government was secular, Irish tensions would not be so high.

BTW, thank you a heap for bringing up the troubles just before St. Paddy's day. It throws a nice wet blanket on my festive plans to celebrate by throwing back shots of Tully and singing Clancy Brothers favorites until they beg me to stop.