How well do masks actually work as it relates to the spread of Covid-19?

[SocialCircle 570]

I am not against mask wearing and I wear one when it is appropriate.  But.....

 

https://thefederalist.com/2020/10/29/these-12-graphs-show-mask-mandates-do-nothing-to-stop-covid/

 

[alexava 6,973]

Masks really make no sense to me. If a person has some symptoms of any mild illness then yes wear a mask. But wearing a mask, the same mask for hours or even days at a time has to be counterproductive. I believe it has been called that a symptomatic spreaders are not really a significant contributor to the pandemic. Masks don’t really prevent anyone from contracting the virus. We are just spinning  our wheels. I work in a manufacturing facility. Our core group in my shop is 11 people. We venture out occasionally and others come in occasionally. I could see it being useful when we move around. I just don’t think forcing everyone to wear a mask 9-11 hours a day is in any way beneficial to any of us. The same nasty mask you’re breathing,talking,sneezing,coughing through then touching it. Touching equipment that we all share. It just overkill in the wrong direction.
      Going to the grocery store, food service maybe different. Manufacturing or construction or football players and staff......

[SLAG-91 1,483]

I wear one at school and other places for the bare minimum amount of time necessary (to be frank, the mandatory times)..at school, that is in the hallways and in my room when students are present (all 3 of them in my F2F class). Once they're out of the room, mask is off.

Teaching (talking) upwards of 45 minutes with a mask on is an asswhip...have to speak louder than I normally would, plus I tend to pace, which gets me a little out of breath because I'm not getting as much air in. I got a mask with vents so I don't fog my glasses up, but that doesn't help with air intake...just expulsion.

As a side note, teaching in a mask to a basically empty room (3 kids who are also wearing masks in one class, 2 in another...my other five classes are online) is without a doubt the most depressing teaching experience I've ever had...feels very dystopian. Can't see reactions, hard to generate any energy, room feels cavernous,  can't do any of the fun activities that I would typically do...blah. I feel terrible for this year's seniors. They're looking at nearly a year and a half of a pennies on the dollar school experience.

I am very much looking forward to the day when I can file 13 the masks.

[McLoofus 35,182]

3 minutes ago, SLAG-91 said:

I wear one at school and other places for the bare minimum amount of time necessary (to be frank, the mandatory times)..at school, that is in the hallways and in my room when students are present (all 3 of them in my F2F class). Once they're out of the room, mask is off.

Teaching (talking) upwards of 45 minutes with a mask on is an asswhip...have to speak louder than I normally would, plus I tend to pace, which gets me a little out of breath because I'm not getting as much air in. I got a mask with vents so I don't fog my glasses up, but that doesn't help with air intake...just expulsion.

As a side note, teaching in a mask to a basically empty room (3 kids who are also wearing masks in one class, 2 in another...my other five classes are online) is without a doubt the most depressing teaching experience I've ever had...feels very dystopian. Can't see reactions, hard to generate any energy, room feels cavernous,  can't do any of the fun activities that I would typically do...blah. I feel terrible for this year's seniors. They're looking at nearly a year and a half of a pennies on the dollar school experience.

I am very much looking forward to the day when I can file 13 the masks.

I feel so much for teachers and older kids. Worried about my own kids, about to be 2 and 6, but they're not missing out on the stuff your older students are. 

[SaltyTiger 7,808]

Would think it would be of some benefit. ie projection distance from a cough. If nothing else it does indicate an awareness or concern for the spread. Feel that hygiene, handwashing, avoiding closed spaces and crowds are probably more important than mask. Unfortunately most people can't live like that.

    

[Leftfield 2,601]

2 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I am not against mask wearing and I wear one when it is appropriate.  But.....

 

https://thefederalist.com/2020/10/29/these-12-graphs-show-mask-mandates-do-nothing-to-stop-covid/

 

Question: did you only read the article, or did you read the sources cited, as well?

[TitanTiger 20,482]

The author seems to be treating masks like it's been pitched as the one and only panacea for COVID, when in reality it's been part of an overall strategy that includes physical distancing, hand washing, avoiding crowds and confined spaces, ventilation, and so on.  For instance, you could wear a mask religiously but if you're not doing the other things, of course you can get it.  And if you're doing all of the other things then you've probably lessened your chances of getting it a good bit even if you fail to wear a mask like you ought to.  But all of the graphs and his arguments seem to me to make the error of confusing correlation and causation.  

I'll also note, the author - while I'm sure he's an intelligent person within his field - has zero expertise in infectious diseases or virology.  Don't let the "bio" in "bioengineering" throw you off either.  That's not a field that is relevant to virology or infectious diseases study.  From UC Berkeley's website:

Bioengineering is a discipline that applies engineering principles of design and analysis to biological systems and biomedical technologies. Examples of bioengineering research include bacteria engineered to produce chemicals, new medical imaging technology, portable disease diagnostic devices, and tissue engineered organs.

Students in bioengineering are trained in fundamentals of both biology and engineering, which may include elements of electrical and mechanical engineering, computer science, materials science, chemistry, and biology. This breadth allows students and faculty to specialize in their areas of interest and collaborate widely with researchers in allied fields.

Graduates go on to successful careers in academia, medicine and a wide variety of industries.

I don't go to brain surgeons for expert advice on gastrointestinal health.  I don't ask a cardiologist about the latest advances in spinal nerve regeneration.  And I don't ask a bioengineering major how to handle infectious viruses in a pandemic.

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, SLAG-91 said:

I wear one at school and other places for the bare minimum amount of time necessary (to be frank, the mandatory times)..at school, that is in the hallways and in my room when students are present (all 3 of them in my F2F class). Once they're out of the room, mask is off.

Teaching (talking) upwards of 45 minutes with a mask on is an asswhip...have to speak louder than I normally would, plus I tend to pace, which gets me a little out of breath because I'm not getting as much air in. I got a mask with vents so I don't fog my glasses up, but that doesn't help with air intake...just expulsion.

As a side note, teaching in a mask to a basically empty room (3 kids who are also wearing masks in one class, 2 in another...my other five classes are online) is without a doubt the most depressing teaching experience I've ever had...feels very dystopian. Can't see reactions, hard to generate any energy, room feels cavernous,  can't do any of the fun activities that I would typically do...blah. I feel terrible for this year's seniors. They're looking at nearly a year and a half of a pennies on the dollar school experience.

I am very much looking forward to the day when I can file 13 the masks.

At work we must wear a mask unless we are taking a drink or putting food in. Even outside or in an office alone. 

[TitanTiger 20,482]

Just now, alexava said:

At work we must wear a mask unless we are taking a drink or putting food in. Even outside or in an office alone. 

The outside part is silly.  If you're outdoors and physically distanced there's no reason to force mask usage.  Unless they were observing problems with people remembering to mask up as they approached others and got into conversations in close proximity or something.  

[wdefromtx 3,159]

I wear the stupid mask since is mandatory, do I think they help?! Meh, probably slow it down a little but considering most are wearing cloth masks and not washing regularly it negates the purpose. 

[alexava 6,973]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

The outside part is silly.  If you're outdoors and physically distanced there's no reason to force mask usage.  Unless they were observing problems with people remembering to mask up as they approached others and got into conversations in close proximity or something.  

No they had this from the beginning. 

[savorytiger 182]

From https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8#ref-CR9:

Quote

In a review⁹ of observational studies, an international research team estimates that surgical and comparable cloth masks are 67% effective in protecting the wearer.

I view it as this: every infected bit of virus that comes out of a person is a pull on a slot machine for getting the virus. The measures we implement generally just reduces the number of contacts you receive, so fewer pulls on that machine. If a mask reduces the amount of aerosols you transmit or receive over a distance by half (as a very conservative estimate, I'd expect actual numbers to be much larger), then it's probably worth it. However, the other measures are also important. Since the mask just distributes the spray differently, it might not protect you if you're standing right by someone coughing up the virus (nor would it fully protect them if you're the carrier).

A couple of people here also seem to be working under the early assumption that transmission may happen through the virus persisting on surfaces. That's now known to be very unlikely: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30678-2/fulltext

Quote

Our findings suggest that environmental contamination leading to SARS-CoV-2 transmission is unlikely to occur in real-life conditions, provided that standard cleaning procedures and precautions are enforced.

If you go lick a table that someone coughed on, you might still get the virus. Otherwise, it's probably safe to go about your normal behavior.

[SaltyTiger 7,808]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

Bioengineering is a discipline that applies engineering principles of design and analysis to biological systems and biomedical technologies. Examples of bioengineering research include bacteria engineered to produce chemicals, new medical imaging technology, portable disease diagnostic devices, and tissue engineered organs.

Students in bioengineering are trained in fundamentals of both biology and engineering, which may include elements of electrical and mechanical engineering, computer science, materials science, chemistry, and biology. This breadth allows students and faculty to specialize in their areas of interest and collaborate widely with researchers in allied fields.

Graduates go on to successful careers in academia, medicine and a wide variety of industries.

Take a look at the transition of the Corley Building courtyard vs  pre 2016. Student designed if I recall. 

[SaltyTiger 7,808]

4 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

The author seems to be treating masks like it's been pitched as the one and only panacea for COVID, when in reality it's been part of an overall strategy that includes physical distancing, hand washing, avoiding crowds and confined spaces, ventilation, and so on

He seems to sum it all up in his first sentence and goes from there. It has become a political tool. ie Biden approaching the podium in the last presidential debate. if you recall needlessly wearing a mask. Removing it as though he is ready for a "showdown" in an old western movie. 

The mask is not the only answer and most people understand as much.

[TitanTiger 20,482]

11 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

He seems to sum it all up in his first sentence and goes from there. It has become a political tool. ie Biden approaching the podium in the last presidential debate. if you recall needlessly wearing a mask. Removing it as though he is ready for a "showdown" in an old western movie. 

The mask is not the only answer and most people understand as much.

I'll agree that sometimes it's being done in a performative way - to set an example or to show that you're taking the matter seriously.  Perhaps in some cases as a form of "virtue signaling."  But also, some of that is a reaction to the way that Trump has been about the matter - purposely and performatively flouting the mask rules, ignoring the advice of experts on it, chiding and belittling those who wear them and so on.  He has set such a terrible example others are going an extra step to combat his stupidity.  If some are putting on masks to be seen in a virtue signaling kind of way all I can say is, if I'm going to signal something at all, better it be a virtue than to signal "I'm an a**hole."

[kennypowers 1,431]

Not wearing a mask is blind allegiance.  Don't make yourself sick in spite.  Don't make yourself sick because you think you look like a conformist. Wear the mask, and let science actually do it's job.  

[homersapien 11,374]

Mask wearing has become a political statement because Trump made it one.  It's a perfect example of his unfitness for office.

[McLoofus 35,182]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Mask wearing has become a political statement because Trump made it one.  It's a perfect example of his unfitness for office.

To be fair, the nation he is pretending to lead is full of idiots. The next POTUS will have his or her hands full, too. This thread, posted here in late October, is evidence of that. We have known the science and correct ways to use these masks for at least 4 months. That people are still trying to rationalize their own stupidity or genuinely not understanding is absolutely insane. 

 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

They just had to close one of the high schools here because of a surge in cases that propagated from the band. To give you an idea of the size of the HS’s in our district....we have 8 currently with an average enrollment of about 3.5K each. 

[homersapien 11,374]

23 hours ago, McLoofus said:

To be fair, the nation he is pretending to lead is full of idiots. The next POTUS will have his or her hands full, too. This thread, posted here in late October, is evidence of that. We have known the science and correct ways to use these masks for at least 4 months. That people are still trying to rationalize their own stupidity or genuinely not understanding is absolutely insane. 

 

If Biden wins very little will change, especially if Democrats fail to carry the senate.

In fact, I am starting to believe we are on the verge of a long term national dissolution into progressive/liberal factions and reactionary/conservative factions.  I plan to post on this.

For that reason, my positive feelings over a Biden victory will be tempered.  It will take more than a mere POTUS to reverse what we have, or are becoming - a nation of distinct, "tribes" with inrreconcilable values / world views.

[McLoofus 35,182]

20 minutes ago, homersapien said:

If Biden wins very little will change, especially if Democrats fail to carry the senate.

In fact, I am starting to believe we are on the verge of a long term national dissolution into progressive/liberal factions and reactionary/conservative factions.  I plan to post on this.

For that reason, my positives feelings over a Biden victory will be tempered.  It will take more than a mere POTUS to reverse what we have, or are becoming - a nation of distinct, "tribes" with inrreconcilable values / world views.

We're actually in a distinct phase of a cycle that our country has experienced every 50 or so years throughout its history. The specifics of course change but the upheaval is consistent. Sadly, if historical patterns hold true, we're in for a crappy decade. Fortunately, we'd be in for brighter times after that. 

Regardless, I agree that Biden won't make things much better during his presidency. But I'm not sure anyone would. It's not about this particular candidate, but, as you say, the status of the country. 

I don't trust our systems to survive another Trump term, though. Trends are meant to be broken and he's just such an instrument.

[AUDub 11,148]

They work when worn properly

/thread

[alexava 6,973]

6 minutes ago, AUDub said:

They work when worn properly

/thread

Are 330million people going to wear them properly?  

[AUDub 11,148]

2 minutes ago, alexava said:

Are 330million people going to wear them properly?  

At worst it would amount to a half measure, but a half measure is better than no measure. They help. 

Guess this is a good time to repeat that I work in healthcare and am well versed in aseptic technique and universal precautions. 

[homersapien 11,374]

21 minutes ago, AUDub said:

At worst it would amount to a half measure, but a half measure is better than no measure. They help. 

Guess this is a good time to repeat that I work in healthcare and am well versed in aseptic technique and universal precautions. 

People still don't seem to understand there is a lot of value in getting and keeping the pandemic to a controllable level. (Controlled by testing and contact tracing.)

We are now at the communal infection stage (in which testing and tracing are practically impossible) and which (again) threatens the capacity of our health care system and gravely threatens those who run it.

Mask wearing one of the important ways - all of which are imperfect - to obtain and maintain control. This persistent lack of understanding is largely due to the response of Trump. 

The most depressing thing about Trump's election - and there are MANY - is the number of Americans who have totally bought into his con game. I would never have thought that one could gaslight 30-40% of the country indefinitely.