The U.S. Government Lied For Two Decades About Afghanistan

[AUGunsmith 666]

16 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I used to be idealistic when it came to the ability of people to self govern.  When it comes to that area of the world, i have come to the opinion that some people, for a myriad of reasons, are either incapable or are not prepared to do just that.    We criticize the British colonial system, yet the countries of Europe, U.K. and other nations thought of as Western countries are finding ourselves needing to do everything for these areas of the world that was once done by colonial powers.  We simply call it more acceptable names.  We play a balancing game with the entire middle east.  At some point, one of us will tire of appeasing everyone.  Our better nature today is to use diplomacy, economic incentive and in some cases military support to prop up governments.  There will come a time when that isn't enough.  If Iran ever launches an attack on Israel, we will be forced to cut the population of Iran in half. I don't enjoy saying that, but I do believe the day is coming that we will be forced to do more than what we have been doing for the past 40 plus years.

This bull****, interventionist thinking is why people act against the US. We shouldn't be supporting Israel or any other state. It's hard to find a single instance where someone attacks the US that isn't a retaliation if american economic or actual warfare. 

[AU9377 4,977]

4 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

This bull****, interventionist thinking is why people act against the US. We shouldn't be supporting Israel or any other state. It's hard to find a single instance where someone attacks the US that isn't a retaliation if american economic or actual warfare. 

Not intervening at all allows for groups like the Nazi party of Germany to gain strength until they are strong enough to destroy other societies.  I'm not in favor or policing the world, but there has to be some world order or we will have chaos.  NATO has provided Europe with decades of peace due to the strength of its alliance.  If countries like Iran are allowed to have a nuclear weapon, they can kill millions simply at the instruction of a religious bigot they obey.  It is easier to prevent that now than after they have the power to carry out that mission.  That is one example.  There are many.

[AU9377 4,977]

22 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

What a pathetic and irrational comparison. 

Do you actually believe that the majority of Afghans are peace loving soccer moms?

[AU9377 4,977]

5 hours ago, AUGunsmith said:

Or maybe if we didn't meddle in the business of others there never would have even been a 9/11

You actually believe that radical Islam wants no harm to come to Christians, Jews, or people that don't follow their obscene beliefs?  Newsflash..... they believe it to be an honor to die killing us.  A Palestinian Muslim can live in Israel.  Can an Israeli Jew live in Palestine?  That explains it all in a nutshell.

 

I say all of that and still believe that we should close half our military bases around the world.  I also believe that we should have never been in Afghanistan for 20 years.  I am just a student of history enough to realize that if we completely withdraw from world affairs, we would pay a high price.

Edited August 27, 2021 by AU9377

[AUGunsmith 666]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

You actually believe that radical Islam wants no harm to come to Christians, Jews, or people that don't follow their obscene beliefs?  Newsflash..... they believe it to be an honor to die killing us.  A Palestinian Muslim can live in Israel.  Can an Israeli Jew live in Palestine?  That explains it all in a nutshell.

 

I say all of that and still believe that we should close half our military bases around the world.  I also believe that we should have never been in Afghanistan for 20 years.  I am just a student of history enough to realize that if we completely withdraw from world affairs, we would pay a high price.

This ignores that it wasn't until the US and other powers started to meddle in the middle east that radical islam really became an issue. You dont have the issues with Iran without the us coup. You don't have Taliban without mujahedeen. You don't have Hamas without kicking the palastinians out and putting in people they dislike. 

Further invasion and occupation does nothing but breed further resentment. The US policy in the middle east is directly responsible forillions of deaths and 10s of millions displaced over the last 2o years alone. 

If you want to talk about terrorist and causes for killing don't forget the biggest terrorist of all, the US govt and military. 

[AUGunsmith 666]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

Not intervening at all allows for groups like the Nazi party of Germany to gain strength until they are strong enough to destroy other societies.  I'm not in favor or policing the world, but there has to be some world order or we will have chaos.  NATO has provided Europe with decades of peace due to the strength of its alliance.  If countries like Iran are allowed to have a nuclear weapon, they can kill millions simply at the instruction of a religious bigot they obey.  It is easier to prevent that now than after they have the power to carry out that mission.  That is one example.  There are many.

The Nazis were a direct response to the allies ******* over Germany after WW1. A war the US should have never entered. It was a regional, typical European conflict. Don't destroy the entire German economy, culture, etc after the war with the treaty of Versailles and Hitler never becomes an issue. 

 

Iran isn't a problem if the US doesn't overthrow the democratic govt of Iran all to protect Britain and BP oil company. It was a stable, progressive country until the US went in and ****** it all up. 

[AUGunsmith 666]

Hell without the meddling in WW1, it never becomes a world war and WW2 never even happens. The Holocaust never happens. Millions of lives around the world are never lost. 

[AU9377 4,977]

1 minute ago, AUGunsmith said:

The Nazis were a direct response to the allies ******* over Germany after WW1. A war the US should have never entered. It was a regional, typical European conflict. Don't destroy the entire German economy, culture, etc after the war with the treaty of Versailles and Hitler never becomes an issue. 

 

Iran isn't a problem if the US doesn't overthrow the democratic govt of Iran all to protect Britain and BP oil company. It was a stable, progressive country until the US went in and ****** it all up. 

I am not arguing that we haven't involved ourselves more than we should have at times.  However, in both of the situations above, the cause became less important than the problem. Yes, as a result of losing the war, Germany was forced to suffer. Helping rebuild the German economy may have resulted in Hitler not finding the foothold of power that he used to build his military machine.  However, if Hitler had been stopped, as Churchill argued time and time again, he would have never been in the position to kill millions.  The U.S. literally allowed Britain to hold the line far past the time we should have intervened.  The discussion is much more in depth and I am fully versed in the discussion, but simply don't have the time as I post this reply.

As for Iran, the point is that they are a problem today.

[AU9377 4,977]

9 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

Hell without the meddling in WW1, it never becomes a world war and WW2 never even happens. The Holocaust never happens. Millions of lives around the world are never lost. 

That is a lot of assuming.  After all, killing your own citizens is about much more than your economic situation as caused by other countries.

Edited August 27, 2021 by AU9377

[AUGunsmith 666]

1 minute ago, AU9377 said:

I am not arguing that we haven't involved ourselves more than we should have at times.  However, in both of the situations above, the cause became less important than the problem. Yes, as a result of losing the war, Germany was forced to suffer. Helping rebuild the German economy may have resulted in Hitler not finding the foothold of power that he used to build his military machine.  However, if Hitler had been stopped, as Churchill argued time and time again, he would have never been in the position to kill millions.  The U.S. literally allowed Britain to hold the line far past the time we should have intervened.  The discussion is much more in depth and I am fully versed in the discussion, but simply don't have the time as I post this reply.

As for Iran, the point is that they are a problem today.

So to fix today's issues, were going to do the same things that made today's issues?

This belief that you can use bombs to force western democracy like it's some godsend is hogswash. Democracy is naught but a god that has failed yet it touts itself as the flagship of freedom.  

 

1 minute ago, AU9377 said:

That is a lot of assuming.

Not really. It's pretty universally thought today that without the joke that was the Versailles treaty, none of the above happens. Just so happens I talked with a history/poli sci PhD/professor about just this a little over a week ago. 

No Hitler means no Holocaust or WW2. The 2 wars aren't really 2 wars but a pause of one. Every cause of WW2 is directly related to the effects of WW1. 

 

Well in Europe. Asia is a completely different story. 

[AU9377 4,977]

8 minutes ago, AUGunsmith said:

So to fix today's issues, were going to do the same things that made today's issues?

This belief that you can use bombs to force western democracy like it's some godsend is hogswash. Democracy is naught but a god that has failed yet it touts itself as the flagship of freedom.  

 

Not really. It's pretty universally thought today that without the joke that was the Versailles treaty, none of the above happens. Just so happens I talked with a history/poli sci PhD/professor about just this a little over a week ago. 

No Hitler means no Holocaust or WW2. The 2 wars aren't really 2 wars but a pause of one. Every cause of WW2 is directly related to the effects of WW1. 

 

Well in Europe. Asia is a completely different story. 

 

Love the way you begin your response by restating your assumptions of what I think instead of what I said.

You cannot state with certainty that there would have been no Hitler. It was moot after the point that there was a Hitler.  We definitely should have put a foot to Hitler's throat long before he had the chance to do what he did.  Every solution does not fit every problem.  I have never advocated western democracy as the solution for everyone.  A representative democracy is the form of government that provides the most protection from an over bearing government, yet it may not work for all.

I assume you prefer rule by aristocracy?

Edited August 27, 2021 by AU9377

[AUGunsmith 666]

1 minute ago, AU9377 said:

You cannot state with certainty that there would have been no Hitler. It was moot after the point that there was a Hitler.  We definitely should have put a foot to Hitler's throat long before he had the chance to do what he did.  Every solution does not fit every problem.  I have never advocated western democracy as the solution for everyone.  A representative democracy is the form of government that provides the most protection from an over bearing government, yet it may not work for all.

I assume you prefer rule by aristocracy?

I'm a free market anarchist. But that word scares people. From a pragmatic standpoint where people believe they need a state to take care of them, small classic liberal monarchs would be best.

The US tries to force democracy though. At least recently. 

States always grow for their own self interest. The oversupply thesis has been proven time and time again. At least with a liberal monarchy, the monarch has motivation of not be evil since if it goes to s***, he only owns s***. 

[AUGunsmith 666]

33 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

 

Love the way you begin your response by restating your assumptions of what I think instead of what I said.

 

You're advocating and defending intervention.... There isn't an assumption. 

[homersapien 11,393]

I just love it when an anarchist tells me I am taking a "purely ideological" position on our societies inherent need for government. 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by homersapien

[DKW 86 7,430]

 

 

[AU9377 4,977]

On 8/28/2021 at 12:36 PM, DKW 86 said:

 

 

Glad you posted this.  The amount of money we spend is obscene.