Jump to content

Biden's Approval Ratings Are So Low In Part Because He's Been Too Centrist and Too Bi-Partisan.


CoffeeTiger

Recommended Posts

I know that's going to make the Righty's on this form spew drink all over their monitors and roll on the floor laughing because ask any Republican how they view Joe Biden and a majority will tell you he's the most far lest, socialist President that America has ever had. 

The issue with that is that it's not true. Joe Biden may be far left in relation to the Republican party as they continue to slide so far to the right they are about to reach the endpoint on the political spectrum, but he's very Centrist overall in terms of historical American politics, and in most of Europe and Canada Biden would be considered a Conservative politician, not a liberal. 

In fact most progressives and the far left vigorously disapprove of Joe Biden's performance because he's too Centrist and support almost NO major progressive policy agenda items. 

We haven't got Supreme Court Packing

We haven't got police reform

We haven't got college or healthcare reform

We haven't got  dissolution of the filibuster 

We haven't gotten "socialism" 

We haven't gotten more lockdowns 

We haven't gotten any proposed leftist policies AT all from Biden 

What have we got from Biden? 

 

Bi partisan infrastructure bills that are popular with both parties, public heath related actions like the wide distribution of the vaccine and testing, covid relief bills that benefit all political groups equally. We've gotten a lot of meetings and changed bill proposes to try and garner support from Republicans and conservative Democrats like Manchin and Senema. Not a ton of stuff done because Biden and the Democrats are mostly hobbled by the Conservative majority in congress they face. 

 

Almost nothing Biden has done or proposed can be correctly classified as "socialist" or even progressive. And this is what's hurting Biden's approval polls and his overall popularity. 

As much as Americans love to tell people they want a politically center government that gets stuff done and works on bi-partisan legislation, when the hammer meets the nail, that's not "really" what they want because that means their most pressing agendas never see the light of day. For progressives that means no expanded social, health, or education programs and no loan forgiveness. For Republicans it means no hardcore immigration reform, no anti-CRT laws, no tax cuts for billionaires and corporations, and no business de-regulation. 

 

Republican's are going to hate Biden no matter what, because like I mentioned above, anything that is Left of Marjorie Taylor-Green is now considered to be pure socialism, but Biden is also losing his support from the left because he's not acting any different than what a 1990s-early 2000's Republican would act. He's not proposing and serious, controversial legislation, he's not even touching on campaign promises like student loans because of how unpopular with the Right that would be. He's trying to play nice with everyone, work with everyone, and get what can be done...done (which means not a whole lot) 

 

It sounds all good on paper, but Biden is learning that when you aren't pushing the legislative goals or the right or the left...

 

You're left with neither side supporting you or giving you good marks at the polls. 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites





This is why I said the Progs may sit the next one out. We got ZERO. They tossed M4A and the Minimum Wage Hike FOR ******* NOTHING.

Invertebrates,.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well, what do you think?

I'd say it's a combination of things. Covid uncertainty, a pourous and out of control border, supply chain issues, inflation, afghan withdrawal, failed campaign promises, etc. There are multiple fronts where he has failed all Americans.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
  • Love 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I know that's going to make the Righty's on this form spew drink all over their monitors and roll on the floor laughing because ask any Republican how they view Joe Biden and a majority will tell you he's the most far lest, socialist President that America has ever had. 

The issue with that is that it's not true. Joe Biden may be far left in relation to the Republican party as they continue to slide so far to the right they are about to reach the endpoint on the political spectrum, but he's very Centrist overall in terms of historical American politics, and in most of Europe and Canada Biden would be considered a Conservative politician, not a liberal. 

In fact most progressives and the far left vigorously disapprove of Joe Biden's performance because he's too Centrist and support almost NO major progressive policy agenda items. 

We haven't got Supreme Court Packing

We haven't got police reform

We haven't got college or healthcare reform

We haven't got  dissolution of the filibuster 

We haven't gotten "socialism" 

We haven't gotten more lockdowns 

We haven't gotten any proposed leftist policies AT all from Biden 

What have we got from Biden? 

 

Bi partisan infrastructure bills that are popular with both parties, public heath related actions like the wide distribution of the vaccine and testing, covid relief bills that benefit all political groups equally. We've gotten a lot of meetings and changed bill proposes to try and garner support from Republicans and conservative Democrats like Manchin and Senema. Not a ton of stuff done because Biden and the Democrats are mostly hobbled by the Conservative majority in congress they face. 

 

Almost nothing Biden has done or proposed can be correctly classified as "socialist" or even progressive. And this is what's hurting Biden's approval polls and his overall popularity. 

As much as Americans love to tell people they want a politically center government that gets stuff done and works on bi-partisan legislation, when the hammer meets the nail, that's not "really" what they want because that means their most pressing agendas never see the light of day. For progressives that means no expanded social, health, or education programs and no loan forgiveness. For Republicans it means no hardcore immigration reform, no anti-CRT laws, no tax cuts for billionaires and corporations, and no business de-regulation. 

 

Republican's are going to hate Biden no matter what, because like I mentioned above, anything that is Left of Marjorie Taylor-Green is now considered to be pure socialism, but Biden is also losing his support from the left because he's not acting any different than what a 1990s-early 2000's Republican would act. He's not proposing and serious, controversial legislation, he's not even touching on campaign promises like student loans because of how unpopular with the Right that would be. He's trying to play nice with everyone, work with everyone, and get what can be done...done (which means not a whole lot) 

 

It sounds all good on paper, but Biden is learning that when you aren't pushing the legislative goals or the right or the left...

 

You're left with neither side supporting you or giving you good marks at the polls. 

 

 

 

 

People can laugh, but this is definitely part of Biden's problem. There are a lot of people upset that Biden has done nothing to fulfill his more "leftist" campaign promises. You might not find many of them on a message board for a football team in AL, but they exist. 

Of course, the other problem is that Biden was never a good candidate to begin with. 

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, cbo said:

People can laugh, but this is definitely part of Biden's problem. There are a lot of people upset that Biden has done nothing to fulfill his more "leftist" campaign promises. You might not find many of them on a message board for a football team in AL, but they exist. 

Of course, the other problem is that Biden was never a good candidate to begin with. 

Exactly, part of. There are so many issues.

What's the adage, aim to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/29/2021 at 9:04 PM, DKW 86 said:

This is why I said the Progs may sit the next one out. We got ZERO. They tossed M4A and the Minimum Wage Hike FOR ******* NOTHING.

Invertebrates,.

And you actually think that Republicans come close to scratching the surface of ANYTHING substantive?

Both Parties suck, but the Republicans go to great lengths to try to dig themselves below the bottom of the barrel.  They literally have nothing substantive to offer.

The way a Democracy works is differing opinions coming together to create compromise, hopefully moving the country forward. One side LITERALLY wants to move backward today, and they will take no prisoners, and, as I got to watch up close and personal, will commit violence (Yes, they want to kill) to get their way. 

And it really isn't Democracy when the minority rules over the majority, as it does now. This country is not at a crossroads.  We have been moving to Autocracy, steadily, since Reagan. We will hit the water head-first in the next five to ten years.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Exactly, part of. There are so many issues.

What's the adage, aim to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one.

You nailed it. I've seen enough to know we don't agree on politics. But we both have common sense. And we can see Biden stands for and represents nothing. I promise no one hates Trump more than me. But the one thing I respect about Trump and his people is that they are going for it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, cbo said:

You nailed it. I've seen enough to know we don't agree on politics. But we both have common sense. And we can see Biden stands for and represents nothing. I promise no one hates Trump more than me. But the one thing I respect about Trump and his people is that they are going for it. 

Probably not, but I agree with a lot of your points and certainly how you present them.

I didn't like Trump at all, an absolute egotistical blowhard. However, I did like that he went out of his way to quickly fulfill some of his campaign promises.  It was the first time in my lifetime that I saw a president try to fulfill them...maybe Obama before him. 

Common sense...that seems to be the new American dream. 

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, bigbird said:

Probably not, but I agree with a lot of your points and certainly how you present them.

Thank you. The feeling is mutual.  I am always up for intelligent, civil discussions with those who may not agree with me. Not up for the attacks and assumptions that I've already experienced on here, so we will see how long I last on this side of the forum ... 

I didn't like Trump at all, an absolute egotistical blowhard. However, I did like that he went out of his way to quickly fulfill some of his campaign promises.  It was the first time in my lifetime that I saw a president try to fulfill them...maybe Obama before him. 

I assumed that about your feelings for Trump. As frustrated as I can get, I can still see the difference between conservatives and Trump sycophants. 

Common sense...that seems to be the new American dream. 

Right!? Shouldn't be too much to ask, but here we are. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, 1716AU said:

And you actually think that Republicans come close to scratching the surface of ANYTHING substantive?

Both Parties suck, but the Republicans go to great lengths to try to dig themselves below the bottom of the barrel.  They literally have nothing substantive to offer.

The way a Democracy works is differing opinions coming together to create compromise, hopefully moving the country forward. One side LITERALLY wants to move backward today, and they will take no prisoners, and, as I got to watch up close and personal, will commit violence (Yes, they want to kill) to get their way. 

And it really isn't Democracy when the minority rules over the majority, as it does now. This country is not at a crossroads.  We have been moving to Autocracy, steadily, since Reagan. We will hit the water head-first in the next five to ten years.

We’re a Republi…..never mind 😂 

  • Haha 3
  • Facepalm 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, bigbird said:

I'd say it's a combination of things. Covid uncertainty, a pourous and out of control border, supply chain issues, inflation, afghan withdrawal, failed campaign promises, etc. There are multiple fronts where he has failed all Americans.

@homersapien, what would you say?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, cbo said:

You nailed it. I've seen enough to know we don't agree on politics. But we both have common sense. And we can see Biden stands for and represents nothing. I promise no one hates Trump more than me. But the one thing I respect about Trump and his people is that they are going for it. 

I just cannot accept, and certainly cannot respect, basing an entire political movement on fiction being paraded around as truth and decency.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, bigbird said:

@homersapien, what would you say?

It's hard for me to lay direct responsibility for things like the covid pandemic on any POTUS (including Trump).  I think Biden did over-promise in that regard and the country was not prepared for a relapse with omicron. 

Having said that, Trump made the (natural for him) mistake of seeing the pandemic primarily as a personal political threat and HE was largely responsible for politicizing it.

Biden doesn't have the instincts to get out front of such an issue for political gain, which is a positive compared to the last guy.

I don't know what to say about the border. I think the problems there are largely due to the problems in South and Central America and I don't think our country has the stomach for seriously addressing them at their source. 

In the absence of any sort of legislative proposals, any president is stuck with the dilemma of balancing the need to show compassion and common sense to immigrants who seek refuge (and the opportunity to work their butts off, which most of them do) and improve both their lives as well as benefiting the country.

(Again, Trump saw this as just another political opportunity to pander to and solidify his base -"build a wall" - without really addressing the root causes of the problem.)

One of the things that would help at the border is to re-direct our drug policies from the "war on drugs" to a medical/healthcare approach instead of criminal one.  This would go a long way toward separating the legitimate refugees from the criminal elements at the border.  We should provide drugs to addicts in controlled settings and address their addiction at the same time.

I don't fully understand the supply chain issues nor what the POTUS could do to directly address them. It seems to me this will naturally take some time to sort itself out.  Inflation is in the same category IMO. 

The Afghanistan withdrawal was going to be messy regardless, but the total chain of command really screwed it up and made it worse than it could have been.  Biden - as commander-in-chief - is responsible for that chain of command.  It was never going to be a positive but it didn't have to be the fiasco it appeared to be. That's on him.

As far as Biden's promises, I think getting at least the first half of his economic package - the infrastructure package - passed was a positive.  I think much of his BBB proposal would go a long way to benefit the country economically but we'll have to see what makes it through, if anything.

Longer term, for this country to prosper, we have to adapt a single payer healthcare system like the rest of the developed world has.  (For example, about 20% of our current healthcare expenditures are funneled into the pockets of rich healthcare companies, drug companies and insurance companies.)  It's totally inefficient.  We have armies of clerks and bureaucrats just to handle reimbursement billing and we have far fewer doctors and clinicians. 

Other countries spend far less on healthcare than we do because and have better outcomes.  (I am currently reading "The Hidden History of American Healthcare - Why sickness Bankrupts You and Makes Others Insanely Rich, by Thom Hartmann.  So more on this later.)

Obviously, I don't see Biden reforming our healthcare system.  The country is afflicted with "Stockholm Syndrome" - we just can't imagine anything different.

The other fundamental problem - perhaps the root problem - with our country is the influence of money in government.  (This affects both parties equally, it's just Republicans are more upfront and honest about it.) 

Here's an example of that taken from the above book. It's  talking about the creation of the 20 percent out-of-pocket responsibility in the 1965 Medicare Act: 

"For the Republicans and "conservative" (corporate-owned) Democrats,  that gap represented a multibillion-dollar profit opportunity for insurance companies to expand into; and expand they did, with Medigap policies no covering over 14 million Americans.  Tragically, that's only a bit more than a third of all Medicare beneficiaries; most elderly people can't afford the the additional $150-$500 a month for a Medigap policy and thus can end up on the hook for 20 percent of an unlimited expense if they get seriously ill."

So, bottom line - and to answer the question about Biden - meh. 

But then, I really didn't have any expectations that he would do anything meaningful given the context of our fundamental problems - our healthcare system and money influencing our political system.  

And now it appears we can add a possible third fundamental problem which is 3) the erosion of our democracy.

I voted for Biden because the alternative was voting for Trump (which perhaps illustrates another fundamental problem in our electoral system). Regardless, it's always a good move to stop the bleeding even if a cure is not in sight.

I think the country is in steady decline and it will probably take a crisis to reverse it.  This is why a part of me would welcome giving Trump another chance to create that crisis.  But it will be bloody.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!  ;D

Edited by homersapien
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/29/2021 at 8:04 PM, DKW 86 said:

This is why I said the Progs may sit the next one out. We got ZERO. They tossed M4A and the Minimum Wage Hike FOR ******* NOTHING.

Invertebrates,.

Fake progressive. ^^^

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, homersapien said:

It's hard for me to lay direct responsibility for things like the covid pandemic on any POTUS (including Trump).  I think Biden did over-promise in that regard and the country was not prepared for a relapse with omicron. 

Having said that, Trump made the (natural for him) mistake of seeing the pandemic primarily as a personal political threat and HE was largely responsible for politicizing it.

Biden doesn't have the instincts to get out front of such an issue for political gain, which is a positive compared to the last guy.

I don't know what to say about the border. I think the problems there are largely due to the problems in South and Central America and I don't think our country has the stomach for seriously addressing them at their source. 

In the absence of any sort of legislative proposals, any president is stuck with the dilemma of balancing the need to show compassion and common sense to immigrants who seek refuge (and the opportunity to work their butts off, which most of them do) and improve both their lives as well as benefiting the country.

(Again, Trump saw this as just another political opportunity to pander to and solidify his base -"build a wall" - without really addressing the root causes of the problem.)

One of the things that would help at the border is to re-direct our drug policies from the "war on drugs" to a medical/healthcare approach instead of criminal one.  This would go a long way toward separating the legitimate refugees from the criminal elements at the border.  We should provide drugs to addicts in controlled settings and address their addiction at the same time.

I don't fully understand the supply chain issues nor what the POTUS could do to directly address them. It seems to me this will naturally take some time to sort itself out.  Inflation is in the same category IMO. 

The Afghanistan withdrawal was going to be messy regardless, but the total chain of command really screwed it up and made it worse than it could have been.  Biden - as commander-in-chief - is responsible for that chain of command.  It was never going to be a positive but it didn't have to be the fiasco it appeared to be. That's on him.

As far as Biden's promises, I think getting at least the first half of his economic package - the infrastructure package - passed was a positive.  I think much of his BBB proposal would go a long way to benefit the country economically but we'll have to see what makes it through, if anything.

Longer term, for this country to prosper, we have to adapt a single payer healthcare system like the rest of the developed world has.  (For example, about 20% of our current healthcare expenditures are funneled into the pockets of rich healthcare companies, drug companies and insurance companies.)  It's totally inefficient.  We have armies of clerks and bureaucrats just to handle reimbursement billing and we have far fewer doctors and clinicians. 

Other countries spend far less on healthcare than we do because and have better outcomes.  (I am currently reading "The Hidden History of American Healthcare - Why sickness Bankrupts You and Makes Others Insanely Rich, by Thom Hartmann.  So more on this later.)

Obviously, I don't see Biden reforming our healthcare system.  The country is afflicted with "Stockholm Syndrome" - we just can't imagine anything different.

The other fundamental problem - perhaps the root problem - with our country is the influence of money in government.  (This affects both parties equally, it's just Republicans are more upfront and honest about it.) 

Here's an example of that taken from the above book. It's  talking about the creation of the 20 percent out-of-pocket responsibility in the 1965 Medicare Act: 

"For the Republicans and "conservative" (corporate-owned) Democrats,  that gap represented a multibillion-dollar profit opportunity for insurance companies to expand into; and expand they did, with Medigap policies no covering over 14 million Americans.  Tragically, that's only a bit more than a third of all Medicare beneficiaries; most elderly people can't afford the the additional $150-$500 a month for a Medigap policy and thus can end up on the hook for 20 percent of an unlimited expense if they get seriously ill."

So, bottom line - and to answer the question about Biden - meh. 

But then, I really didn't have any expectations that he would do anything meaningful given the context of our fundamental problems - our healthcare system and money influencing our political system.  

And now it appears we can add a possible third fundamental problem which is 3) the erosion of our democracy.

I voted for Biden because the alternative was voting for Trump (which perhaps illustrates another fundamental problem in our electoral system). Regardless, it's always a good move to stop the bleeding even if a cure is not in sight.

I think the country is in steady decline and it will probably take a crisis to reverse it.  This is why a part of me would welcome giving Trump another chance to create that crisis.  But it will be bloody.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!  ;D

Thanks for the reply

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, cbo said:

People can laugh, but this is definitely part of Biden's problem. There are a lot of people upset that Biden has done nothing to fulfill his more "leftist" campaign promises. You might not find many of them on a message board for a football team in AL, but they exist. 

Of course, the other problem is that Biden was never a good candidate to begin with. 

see i think this is sad. i think biden is easing up all the left stuff and trying to be more centrist because he wants to try and bring the country back together as much as he can. it does not seem to be working. but i applaud his efforts even tho i am somewhat disappointed but hey i like him better today than i did because i just found out my ccrs wage increase is right at a hundred and twenty bucks. fed employees too often get caught up in politics and normally do not get raises and it has been that way for years on both sides of the board. so i feel like i finally got a real cost of living increase. in fairness trump was better than some but i felt it was still lacking. but i lost on social security cus my medicare went up and i did not get that much to begin with. so that is something on my end even if it might appear selfish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

It's hard for me to lay direct responsibility for things like the covid pandemic on any POTUS (including Trump).  I think Biden did over-promise in that regard and the country was not prepared for a relapse with omicron. 

Having said that, Trump made the (natural for him) mistake of seeing the pandemic primarily as a personal political threat and HE was largely responsible for politicizing it.

Biden doesn't have the instincts to get out front of such an issue for political gain, which is a positive compared to the last guy.

I don't know what to say about the border. I think the problems there are largely due to the problems in South and Central America and I don't think our country has the stomach for seriously addressing them at their source. 

In the absence of any sort of legislative proposals, any president is stuck with the dilemma of balancing the need to show compassion and common sense to immigrants who seek refuge (and the opportunity to work their butts off, which most of them do) and improve both their lives as well as benefiting the country.

(Again, Trump saw this as just another political opportunity to pander to and solidify his base -"build a wall" - without really addressing the root causes of the problem.)

One of the things that would help at the border is to re-direct our drug policies from the "war on drugs" to a medical/healthcare approach instead of criminal one.  This would go a long way toward separating the legitimate refugees from the criminal elements at the border.  We should provide drugs to addicts in controlled settings and address their addiction at the same time.

I don't fully understand the supply chain issues nor what the POTUS could do to directly address them. It seems to me this will naturally take some time to sort itself out.  Inflation is in the same category IMO. 

The Afghanistan withdrawal was going to be messy regardless, but the total chain of command really screwed it up and made it worse than it could have been.  Biden - as commander-in-chief - is responsible for that chain of command.  It was never going to be a positive but it didn't have to be the fiasco it appeared to be. That's on him.

As far as Biden's promises, I think getting at least the first half of his economic package - the infrastructure package - passed was a positive.  I think much of his BBB proposal would go a long way to benefit the country economically but we'll have to see what makes it through, if anything.

Longer term, for this country to prosper, we have to adapt a single payer healthcare system like the rest of the developed world has.  (For example, about 20% of our current healthcare expenditures are funneled into the pockets of rich healthcare companies, drug companies and insurance companies.)  It's totally inefficient.  We have armies of clerks and bureaucrats just to handle reimbursement billing and we have far fewer doctors and clinicians. 

Other countries spend far less on healthcare than we do because and have better outcomes.  (I am currently reading "The Hidden History of American Healthcare - Why sickness Bankrupts You and Makes Others Insanely Rich, by Thom Hartmann.  So more on this later.)

Obviously, I don't see Biden reforming our healthcare system.  The country is afflicted with "Stockholm Syndrome" - we just can't imagine anything different.

The other fundamental problem - perhaps the root problem - with our country is the influence of money in government.  (This affects both parties equally, it's just Republicans are more upfront and honest about it.) 

Here's an example of that taken from the above book. It's  talking about the creation of the 20 percent out-of-pocket responsibility in the 1965 Medicare Act: 

"For the Republicans and "conservative" (corporate-owned) Democrats,  that gap represented a multibillion-dollar profit opportunity for insurance companies to expand into; and expand they did, with Medigap policies no covering over 14 million Americans.  Tragically, that's only a bit more than a third of all Medicare beneficiaries; most elderly people can't afford the the additional $150-$500 a month for a Medigap policy and thus can end up on the hook for 20 percent of an unlimited expense if they get seriously ill."

So, bottom line - and to answer the question about Biden - meh. 

But then, I really didn't have any expectations that he would do anything meaningful given the context of our fundamental problems - our healthcare system and money influencing our political system.  

And now it appears we can add a possible third fundamental problem which is 3) the erosion of our democracy.

I voted for Biden because the alternative was voting for Trump (which perhaps illustrates another fundamental problem in our electoral system). Regardless, it's always a good move to stop the bleeding even if a cure is not in sight.

I think the country is in steady decline and it will probably take a crisis to reverse it.  This is why a part of me would welcome giving Trump another chance to create that crisis.  But it will be bloody.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!  ;D

Great post! Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Grumps said:

Great post! Thanks!

I could have posted that, and have for the most part, and i would have gotten 2 thumbs down and 3 facepalms. 

Being able to discuss things rationally is hampered by some on this forum being totally incapable of thinking past even the simplest narrative thinking. 

Edited by DKW 86
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

I could have posted that, and have for the most part, and i would have gotten 2 thumbs down and 3 facepalms. 

Being able to discuss things rationally is hampered by some on this forum being totally incapable of thinking past even the simplest narrative thinking. 

I agree, and even though I will come across as a wuss, it breaks my heart sometimes that honest, civil discussions rarely take place anymore. I have invested (wasted?) many hours here because I want to understand how other people think. I try to choose to think that everyone here is a good and honest person and if we disagree it is because we have different priorities, not because one of us is a horrible person. Maybe 2022 will be better! Happy New Year!!!

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Members Online

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...