When ignoring biological sex and prioritizing gender identity goes wrong

[TitanTiger 20,498]

Two inmates at all-women's New Jersey jail are pregnant after both had sex with transgender prisoners: ACLU won battle to house 27 trans inmates there

Two women at New Jersey's only all-women's prison have both fallen pregnant after having sex with transgender inmates. 

The pregnant women, who were not identified, are housed at the embattled Edna Mahan Correctional Facility, in Clinton, which New Jersey Governor announced plans to close last year.  

Prison bosses said that in both instances, the sex was consensual.

It is unclear if the women had sex with the same transgender inmate, or if it was two different inmates. Edna Mahan houses 27 transgender prisoners, and over 800 women altogether. It is also unclear how far along the two inmates are, and whether they plan to continue with their respective pregnancies. An investigation has been launched. 

The correctional facility began to house transgender women - including those that have yet to undergo gender reassignment surgery - last year.

That came as part of a settlement following a lawsuit brought by a trans woman and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of New Jersey...

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10716417/Two-women-female-New-Jersey-prison-PREGNANT-trans-inmates.html

 

At what point do we wake up from this delusion that one's internal sense of gender and self is all the matters in these situations?  I feel like I'm living in bizzaro world.

[TitanTiger 20,498]

Another article from a more mainstream source:

https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2022/04/two-women-at-nj-prison-pregnant-after-consensual-sex-with-transgender-inmate.html

To be clear, the sexual encounters here were consensual.  But it illustrates the limits of viewing gender identity as the most important overriding concern in such situations.  At some point we have to acknowledge basic common sense and see that the balloon cannot be stretched any further without popping.  We simply don't have separate things for men and women based on notions of how one feels internally.  They are based on actual physical differences in men and women.  And we need to be able to speak frankly and honestly about it and tell folks advocating for stuff like this that gender dysphoria and trans identity can only be indulged and acknowledged so far before we bump up and against its limits.

[AU9377 4,960]

58 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Another article from a more mainstream source:

https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2022/04/two-women-at-nj-prison-pregnant-after-consensual-sex-with-transgender-inmate.html

To be clear, the sexual encounters here were consensual.  But it illustrates the limits of viewing gender identity as the most important overriding concern in such situations.  At some point we have to acknowledge basic common sense and see that the balloon cannot be stretched any further without popping.  We simply don't have separate things for men and women based on notions of how one feels internally.  They are based on actual physical differences in men and women.  And we need to be able to speak frankly and honestly about it and tell folks advocating for stuff like this that gender dysphoria and trans identity can only be indulged and acknowledged so far before we bump up and against its limits.

At the risk of being crude.... I have always felt that unless and until the person actually has it cut off, the individual should be considered a cross dresser and not transgender.  I admit that I have a fairly simplistic view of the issue, but at some point this becomes ridiculous. It is a big enough challenge to have everyone respected for who they are based on factors they had no control over.  In other words, their race, gender and sexual orientation.  Conflating that with using drugs, hormones and medical procedures to change someone physically is a recipe for disaster.

I think your statement above is spot on.

[TitanTiger 20,498]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:31 AM, AU9377 said:

At the risk of being crude.... I have always felt that unless and until the person actually has it cut off, the individual should be considered a cross dresser and not transgender.  I admit that I have a fairly simplistic view of the issue, but at some point this becomes ridiculous. It is a big enough challenge to have everyone respected for who they are based on factors they had no control over.  In other words, their race, gender and sexual orientation.  Conflating that with using drugs, hormones and medical procedures to change someone physically is a recipe for disaster.

I think your statement above is spot on.

I think cross dressing should still be defined differently than someone experiencing gender dysphoria who has chosen to begin transitioning.  So I'd keep the terms the same.  But there should be subcategories considered and if, such as in this scenario, we're going to house trans women in a women's prison, then they should be trans women who have undergone at least gender reassignment surgery and no longer have male sex organs.  Until then they either need to stay in the men's prison or the trans women should be housed in a separate area from everyone else in the general population.

[I_M4_AU 7,853]

It’s interesting that these stories come from the UK or local (Syracuse) sources.  Here is another article from the UK.

Ex-soldier exposed her penis and used wheelie bin as sex toy in public

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/ex-soldier-exposed-her-penis-and-used-wheelie-bin-as-sex-toy-in-public-16454386/

I have no idea what a wheelie bin is but that is not the issue.  I don’t want to copy and paste any of the article because it is obvious this ex-soldier is a pervert and is using the *transgender* mantra to get away with his perversion.

Non the less, the fact that media has bought into anybody that declares they are *trans* is treated like the opposite sex is just too woke for a healthy society.  It is a cudgel that has been used by the LGBTQ1!@$@#^$& coalition (as opposed to the LGBTQ community) to foster their agenda.

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

But there should be subcategories considered and if, such as his this scenario, we're going to house trans women in a women's prison, then they should be trans women who have undergone at least gender reassignment surgery and no longer have male sex organs

You are mixing terms here.  It is very confusing what these definitions mean and defy the english language.  As I understand the terms, a Transgender is any person that has gender dysphoria and is *Transitioning* to their prefer sex.  When the transition is complete (gender reassignment surgery) they are known as a Man or a Women.  Like the Woman of the Year Admiral Rachel Lavigne is a woman, not a Trans-woman and if you don’t believe that don’t go on Twitter and say anything to the contrary.  The Babylon Bee did and was banned from the site.

It is the reason the woke can not define a woman without using the term woman in their definition.  It is obvious certain unsavory people are using the Trans movement to take advantage of their situation.  It is also obvious that young people are more and more confused by the information presented to them. Being *Trans* seems to be a way to be in a group that raises your victimhood as opposed to being truly gender dysphoric.

Fire away.

[TitanTiger 20,498]

24 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

It’s interesting that these stories come from the UK or local (Syracuse) sources.  Here is another article from the UK.

Ex-soldier exposed her penis and used wheelie bin as sex toy in public

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/ex-soldier-exposed-her-penis-and-used-wheelie-bin-as-sex-toy-in-public-16454386/

I have no idea what a wheelie bin is but that is not the issue.  I don’t want to copy and paste any of the article because it is obvious this ex-soldier is a pervert and is using the *transgender* mantra to get away with his perversion.

Non the less, the fact that media has bought into anybody that declares they are *trans* is treated like the opposite sex is just too woke for a healthy society.  It is a cudgel that has been used by the LGBTQ1!@$@#^$& coalition (as opposed to the LGBTQ community) to foster their agenda.

You are mixing terms here.  It is very confusing what these definitions mean and defy the english language.  As I understand the terms, a Transgender is any person that has gender dysphoria and is *Transitioning* to their prefer sex.  When the transition is complete (gender reassignment surgery) they are known as a Man or a Women.  Like the Woman of the Year Admiral Rachel Lavigne is a woman, not a Trans-woman and if you don’t believe that don’t go on Twitter and say anything to the contrary.  The Babylon Bee did and was banned from the site.

It is the reason the woke can not define a woman without using the term woman in their definition.  It is obvious certain unsavory people are using the Trans movement to take advantage of their situation.  It is also obvious that young people are more and more confused by the information presented to them. Being *Trans* seems to be a way to be in a group that raises your victimhood as opposed to being truly gender dysphoric.

Fire away.

I'm just using the terms as they are used now.  I'm not signaling agreement with the paradigm or anything.

[I_M4_AU 7,853]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

I'm just using the terms as they are used now.  I'm not signaling agreement with the paradigm or anything.

I didn’t think you were agreeing with the paradigm shift.  I was just pointing out transgender is a person that has not, for whatever reason, fully transitioned to the opposite sex.

I am waiting for some of the posters on here to weigh in on this thread.  I don’t think they will do it as vehemently as other threads, it will be interesting to see.

P.S. We are living in a bizzaro world.

[PUB78 1,358]

5 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

I didn’t think you were agreeing with the paradigm shift.  I was just pointing out transgender is a person that has not, for whatever reason, fully transitioned to the opposite sex.

I am waiting for some of the posters on here to weigh in on this thread.  I don’t think they will do it as vehemently as other threads, it will be interesting to see.

P.S. We are living in a bizzaro world.

A sick and confused world.

[AU9377 4,960]

23 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I think cross dressing should still be defined differently than someone experiencing gender dysphoria who has chosen to begin transitioning.  So I'd keep the terms the same.  But there should be subcategories considered and if, such as his this scenario, we're going to house trans women in a women's prison, then they should be trans women who have undergone at least gender reassignment surgery and no longer have male sex organs.  Until then they either need to stay in the men's prison or the trans women should be housed in a separate area from everyone else in the general population.

You are correct.  However, the issue many times is complicated by determining when someone is experiencing gender dysphoria and when they aren't.  If someone born male is having sexual intercourse with women, I would argue that they aren't experiencing gender dysphoria at all.  Of course, that is just my opinion.

[TitanTiger 20,498]

1 minute ago, AU9377 said:

You are correct.  However, the issue many times is complicated by determining when someone is experiencing gender dysphoria and when they aren't.  If someone born male is having sexual intercourse with women, I would argue that they aren't experiencing gender dysphoria at all.  Of course, that is just my opinion.

Oh, you'll be corrected and told that the trans woman with still functional male genitalia can be a lesbian and want to have sex with women.

Which just goes to how you how cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs some of this stuff ends up being.

[I_M4_AU 7,853]

2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

the issue many times is complicated by determining when someone is experiencing gender dysphoria and when they aren't.

This is true, however, you also left off at what time in their life they *believe* they are experiencing gender dysphoria.  This, especially in younger people (before puberty) and teens have become more of a social contagion before the Doctors even get involved, IMO.

[AU9377 4,960]

5 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

This is true, however, you also left off at what time in their life they *believe* they are experiencing gender dysphoria.  This, especially in younger people (before puberty) and teens have become more of a social contagion before the Doctors even get involved, IMO.

I don't believe  it is smart for a kid to get a tattoo before they are an adult, much less make life altering decisions like that before they have gone thru puberty.

[DKW 86 7,426]

So, if someone identified as someone else....

Say that someone now identifies as Napoleon or Teddy Roosevelt, do we now have to support their delusions. I mean, I dont really see the difference. 

Hello, I am Tyler and I identify as a woman named Naomi..

Hello, I am Tyler and I identify as a woman named Beyonce'

What would be the difference really? They are both just as valid. My friend of 46 years is now post surgery. She wlks, talks, and acts like she did as a male. No difference except for the clothing. I grew up with a young black male named Terry Shelby. Terry was gay/dysphoric from his first steps. He was grandiose gay. He was the best Majorette we had at BHS. Before he left school, he had a white BF and they had saved enough to be halfway to transition surgery. I understand FULLY that dysphoria is out there, that people that believe they are in the wrong bodies do exist. I also believe and maybe know that there are some that are just in it for the attention. In 21st Century America, we do have people that hungry to be popular or well known.

Edited April 16, 2022 by DKW 86

[I_M4_AU 7,853]

16 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I don't believe  it is smart for a kid to get a tattoo before they are an adult, much less make life altering decisions like that before they have gone thru puberty.

Yep, my three boys knew I was and am not big on tattoos so there were none of that when they lived with us.  However, all three of them have them now as they are of age and can pay for it themselves.  I am slowing accepting the *art*, but I’ll never have one.

[AU9377 4,960]

41 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Yep, my three boys knew I was and am not big on tattoos so there were none of that when they lived with us.  However, all three of them have them now as they are of age and can pay for it themselves.  I am slowing accepting the *art*, but I’ll never have one.

Personally, I know what I like today may not be what I like tomorrow.  The inability to easily change a decision scares the hell out of me.  That is why I use it as an example when talking about all these gender "decisions" some argue kids are making themselves.  A decision that final should never be made with such little life experience.

[I_M4_AU 7,853]

3 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Personally, I know what I like today may not be what I like tomorrow.  The inability to easily change a decision scares the hell out of me.  That is why I use it as an example when talking about all these gender "decisions" some argue kids are making themselves.  A decision that final should never be made with such little life experience.

Or at an age where you don’t understand the ramifications even though you think you have thought it through.  This is what parents are for because the parent has much more experience than a child/teenager.

[AU9377 4,960]

3 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

So, if someone identified as someone else....

Say that someone now identifies as Napoleon or Teddy Roosevelt, do we now have to support their delusions. I mean, I dont really see the difference. 

Hello, I am Tyler and I identify as a woman named Naomi..

Hello, I am Tyler and I identify as a woman named Beyonce'

What would be the difference really? They are both just as valid. My friend of 46 years is now post surgery. She wlks, talks, and acts like she did as a male. No difference except for the clothing. I grew up with a young black male named Terry Shelby. Terry was gay/dysphoric from his first steps. He was grandiose gay. He was the best Majorette we had at BHS. Before he left school, he had a white BF and they had saved enough to be halfway to transition surgery. I understand FULLY that dysphoria is out there, that people that believe they are in the wrong bodies do exist. I also believe and maybe know that there are some that are just in it for the attention. In 21st Century America, we do have people that hungry to be popular or well known.

I get what you are saying.  The only part that causes me to think is the why.  I am certain that a select few do want the attention, but I have heard the same argument made regarding a kid telling an adult that he/she is gay.  I know that what every kid wants is to be part of the group. Kids stress an unbelievable amount over fitting in.  Too many kids have taken their own life as the result of feeling helpless when it comes to who they are.  I honestly believe we need to focus on teaching everyone to respect each other and try to understand each other more than how to change who they are sexually by way of medications and surgery. 

When someone is an adult, provided that their life choices don't harm others, they should be able to make those decisions.   I just believe that if we claim that someone is too young to consent to having sex with an adult, that they should also be too young to make decisions regarding their gender.

[DKW 86 7,426]

6 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I get what you are saying.  The only part that causes me to think is the why.  I am certain that a select few do want the attention, but I have heard the same argument made regarding a kid telling an adult that he/she is gay.  I know that what every kid wants is to be part of the group. Kids stress an unbelievable amount over fitting in.  Too many kids have taken their own life as the result of feeling helpless when it comes to who they are.  I honestly believe we need to focus on teaching everyone to respect each other and try to understand each other more than how to change who they are sexually by way of medications and surgery. 

When someone is an adult, provided that their life choices don't harm others, they should be able to make those decisions.   I just believe that if we claim that someone is too young to consent to having sex with an adult, that they should also be too young to make decisions regarding their gender.

No problem with an adult making that decision. 

A child should not be making decisions that change their lives forever.

Terry made the decision when he was 17-18 yo. I have zero problem with that.

Edited April 16, 2022 by DKW 86

[PUB78 1,358]

[AUDub 11,153]

14 hours ago, PUB78 said:

Hey God gave my wife appendicitis too. Didn't stop us from getting it treated. 

[AUDub 11,153]

On 4/15/2022 at 8:53 AM, AU9377 said:

You are correct.  However, the issue many times is complicated by determining when someone is experiencing gender dysphoria and when they aren't.  If someone born male is having sexual intercourse with women, I would argue that they aren't experiencing gender dysphoria at all.  Of course, that is just my opinion.

Thing about prison is that sex is often a commodity, no matter the uh, tools, of the participants.

[AUDub 11,153]

Hell we already have enough trouble keeping women housed in women's prisons from getting pregnant because of the freaking guards.

But this was a stupid approach. There's a damn good reason we house males and females (note that I did not say men and women) separately.

If you drop someone into prison, there's a high likelihood there'll be sex involved. That's unavoidable. How no one stopped and considered that dropping someone with functional rod and tackle into the pit was going to result in babies is lost on me. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by AUDub

[Leftfield 2,607]

16 hours ago, PUB78 said:

A few questions:

1. Is God confused when He creates hermaphrodites?

2. Is God confused when He creates children with ambiguous genitalia?

3. What if there is no God?

 

[bigbird 60,560]

23 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

No problem with an adult making that decision. 

A child should not be making decisions that change their lives forever.

Terry made the decision when he was 17-18 yo. I have zero problem with that.

Do you think parents that allow reassignment surgery on their kids should be classified as abusers and he treated accordingly?

[aubiefifty 16,803]

16 hours ago, PUB78 said:

i knew someone was going to post this. i have a friend that has a transgender son who was born a female. i am no scientist but he is legit. super hi IQ as well. stuff happens. and it has not been pretty. i lost touch a few year ago and i just hope it has gotten better. the drs had a name for it but he also said some are legit and some do it for money and fame and that sort of thing. the last i saw the kid he was happy. so if it is legit i am all for it. if it is someone trying to get over or all that kind of mess then we should not have to pay for it. for years we have told folks with depression or breaking down they just were not menly men and all that kind of crap. i call it the patton thing. ptsd is real and we dishonor those that stood up only to come back broken by calling them cowards or less than.most homeless last time i checked were vets. and they either could not handle it or were let down or both.