“He has a battle rifle”: Police feared Uvalde gunman’s AR-15

[Leftfield 2,617]

On 3/26/2023 at 6:56 AM, DKW 86 said:

Say this one more time. it is Scientific, Rational, and Truthful.

What do I want to do about guns? Let's start with a RADICAL change in Mental Illness laws and treatment. 

Last nite there were 330M Weapons in America.

Last nite 330M-100 did nothing wrong and will never do anything wrong. 

We have people that are so full of crap that they want to go after the 330M owned by honest law-abiding citizens that are never going to be used in any illegal way ever...

and do absolutely nothing against the 100 that are up to no good. 

 

Agree with the way we handle mental illness. I'm confused about the rest of your post, though. I don't recall anyone in this thread saying all guns should be taken away, which appears to be what you're debating. We were specifically talking about high-powered semi-automatic rifles.

[Leftfield 2,617]

20 hours ago, Mims44 said:

If the amount of deaths by firearms have increased so dramatically AFTER the most dangerous firearms have been banned, does it stand to reason to any of you three that there might be some underlying cause?

I think a great deal of this was timing. Months ago I mentioned in another thread on this that my dad used to be a member of the NRA, starting in the 60's. At that point, from his experience at least, is was all about how to become a better shot with hunting rifles and promoting safety in every aspect. Slowly, moving into the early 70's, he started to see the culture of the organization shift, with a younger generation that started using many more semi-automatics and safety taking a back-seat to more of a "yeehaw" mentality. Can't remember the exact year but he quit when he started seeing that.

Long story short, I just think it took some time before that culture became pervasive enough that it took over. I'm not saying that's the only factor, of course - there are plenty of pressures in society that influence people's mindsets in this regard - but the shift in gun culture is certainly a big part.

 

20 hours ago, Mims44 said:

I doubt it will ever happen, but would you three think that if the media agreed to not show the face of the shooter or use his real name that there could be a drop in school shootings? If there is no fame or notoriety to be gained, then for a lot of these teens it becomes a truly senseless act. 

Early on this may have had some impact, but in my opinion I don't think it's much of a factor anymore. It happens so often that the chances of someone becoming well-known are increasingly slim. It would have to be something exceptionally horrifying (not that any mass shootings aren't). Honestly, the last mass-shooter's name I can remember was from Sandy Hook. I do think being noticed is many of these shooters' motivation, at least in part, but I think that's primarily a matter of getting those around them to notice. I really don't think most of them are trying to go down in the history books.

[DKW 86 7,431]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:52 AM, Leftfield said:

Agree with the way we handle mental illness. I'm confused about the rest of your post, though. I don't recall anyone in this thread saying all guns should be taken away, which appears to be what you're debating. We were specifically talking about high-powered semi-automatic rifles.

Swing and a miss. 
I didn’t say a word about taking away all guns. I was showing how we are obsessed about guns in law-abiding citizens' hands that do not and will never be used in any crime. But again, I think you knew that. 
 

Every chance we get we ignore guns in criminals hands and how they got there. But we don’t even talk about that. It's those guns in the hands of citizens that will never use them illegally. Face it. We are doing everything BUT trying to fix the gun problem. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by DKW 86

[Leftfield 2,617]

1 minute ago, DKW 86 said:

Swing and a miss. 
I didn’t say a word about taking away all guns. I was showing how we are obsessed about guns in law abiding citizens hands that do not and will never be used in any crime. But again, I think you knew that. 

No, I didn't. To me your post implied that we were talking about going after all guns. I'll admit to not knowing how many guns are in the US, but I'm assuming that's the 330 million number you were referring to. I was pointing out that we were discussing AR-15s and the like. 

22 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Every chance we get we ignore guns in criminals hands and how they got there. But we don’t even talk about that. It those guns in the hands of citizens that will never use them illegally. Face it. We are doing everything BUT trying to fix the gun problem. 

Are you referring to me specifically with this, or just society in general?

[CoffeeTiger 5,135]

Welp. New School Shooting today:

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/03/27/nashville-shooting-covenant-school/

 

Private Christian grade school in Nashville. at least 3 kids dead. Shooter shot and killed by police. 

No other info reported yet. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by CoffeeTiger

[Leftfield 2,617]

44 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Welp. New School Shooting today:

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/03/27/nashville-shooting-covenant-school/

 

Private Christian grade school in Nashville. at least 3 kids dead. Shooter shot and killed by police. 

No other info reported yet. 

Female shooter. Can't recall ever seeing that for a school shooting.

[CoffeeTiger 5,135]

2 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Female shooter. Can't recall ever seeing that for a school shooting.

Yeah, that's Strange.

 

They're saying  3 kids and 3 adults dead and the teenage girl shooter dead.  the Girl is reported to have had several 'assault style' rifles and a handgun on her. 

[CoffeeTiger 5,135]

Police at first said shooter appeared to be a girl in her early/mid teens, but police are now saying the shooter has been confirmed as a 28 year old woman. 

[homersapien 11,396]

On 3/26/2023 at 2:26 PM, Mims44 said:

Gun violence in schools (school shooters) have skyrockets since the late 90's. Fully automatic weapons (the kind that can and do fire over 600rounds a min) have been banned since the 80's.

If the amount of deaths by firearms have increased so dramatically AFTER the most dangerous firearms have been banned, does it stand to reason to any of you three that there might be some underlying cause?

Not sure exactly what you mean by this question, but

1) The technical distinction between fully auto and semi-auto is a moot one when considering functionality in a mass shooting situation.  In fact, I would argue that a semi-automatic mode is actually more efficient (deadlier).

2) The use and availability of AR-15 type weapons (military assault rifles) has increased exponentially after the bans on their sale were removed.  That's the reason we see these weapons being used for mass murders.  Prior to the ban the market demand was relatively low.  The gun industry - starting with the NRA - reversed their initial positions - which were negative on military assault weapons -  and started marketing these weapons very aggressively. 

The WAPO published an excellent history on the AR-15 just today:

How the AR-15 became a powerful political, cultural symbol in America - Washington Post

The gun that divides a nation

 

The AR-15 thrives in times of tension and tragedy. This is how it came to dominate the marketplace – and loom so large in the American psyche.

Edited March 27, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,396]

On 3/26/2023 at 2:26 PM, Mims44 said:

I doubt it will ever happen, but would you three think that if the media agreed to not show the face of the shooter or use his real name that there could be a drop in school shootings? If there is no fame or notoriety to be gained, then for a lot of these teens it becomes a truly senseless act. 

No.

I don't think notoriety plays a determinative factor in these incidents.

[Mims44 1,882]

7 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Not sure exactly what you mean by this question, but

1) The technical distinction between fully auto and semi-auto is a moot one when considering functionality in a mass shooting situation.  In fact, I would argue that a semi-automatic mode is actually more efficient (deadlier).

2) The use and availability of AR-15 type weapons (military assault rifles) has increased exponentially after the bans on their sale.  That's the reason we see these weapons being used for mass murders.

The WAPO published an excellent history on the AR-15 just today:

How the AR-15 became a powerful political, cultural symbol in America - Washington Post

The gun that divides a nation

 

The AR-15 thrives in times of tension and tragedy. This is how it came to dominate the marketplace – and loom so large in the American psyche.

That is actually where the biggest distinction lies; if I am picking targets out of a crowd and have a short list I want to get through, slower accurate  60 rounds per minute fire prevails. If I am firing into a crowd and my goal is simply to hurt/kill as many people as possible, then the automatic capable of 600rounds per minute is the way to go.

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

No.

I don't think notoriety plays a determinative factor in these incidents.

I think we agree on mental health playing a big part, though not on fame/notoriety being a factor.

Are there any other big causes in your opinion?

[homersapien 11,396]

On 3/25/2023 at 5:01 PM, cptau said:

We’ve tried doing that starting with the LBJ Great Society.  Things have gotten worse with more violence and death. There is a culture of death in inner cities that spreads out to other areas.  

Most school shootings are black on black using handguns, usually in parking lots. The AR-15 shooters are usually white on white mass shootings  I’m OK with raising the purchase age for a semi auto rifle to 21 with a waiting period, if SCOTUS doesn’t eventually ban the age restrictions.  Handguns already have a 21 purchase age.  The inner city killers that make up less than 3% of the population commit over 50% of gun homicides in the US using handguns.  Tying to confiscate all  handguns is almost impossible.  Ask the Australians   

Changing the inner city culture will take decades, but maybe the only hope.  We’re not only faced with gun violence, but also a drug culture that is rotting away at the country.  The government some people want  to ban or heavily restrict guns can’t control illegal drugs or immigrant ion.  

 

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see results comparing socio-economic status instead of race.

[cptau 169]

It doesn’t get much press coverage, but  after the Tuscaloosa shooting, Miles returned to his apartment with the wounded Davis.   During an police search of the University Downs apartment, a Mini Draco — a large AK-style semi automatic pistol resembling an AK-47 — was recovered, along with a .40 caliber handgun police believe was the weapon Davis could be seen firing.  

 

[homersapien 11,396]

21 minutes ago, Mims44 said:

If I am firing into a crowd and my goal is simply to hurt/kill as many people as possible, then the automatic capable of 600rounds per minute is the way to go.

Maybe in the case of the Las Vegas shooting but not in a classroom.

Why use auto?  It's not like people are firing back and you've plenty of time to acquire targets.  It would be a waste of ammo.

Plus, you have to convert the weapon to fire automatically, which is arguably easy to do, but not necessarily for a shooter who is using an assault rifle due to its easy availability (which is my main argument - they are too damn available).

Edited March 27, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,396]

13 minutes ago, cptau said:

It doesn’t get much press coverage, but  after the Tuscaloosa shooting, Miles returned to his apartment with the wounded Davis.   During an police search of the University Downs apartment, a Mini Draco — a large AK-style semi automatic pistol resembling an AK-47 — was recovered, along with a .40 caliber handgun police believe was the weapon Davis could be seen firing.  

 

What every college student needs.  

[icanthearyou 4,463]

More guns, more inequality, more tribal rhetoric.  Apparently, this is what we want,,,violence and the total breakdown of society.

[Gowebb11 9,345]

On 3/21/2023 at 5:24 PM, icanthearyou said:

How brave is anyone going up against a barricaded shooter with a weapon that fires 700-900 rounds per minute?

Should we expect our police officers to be this brave?

The gun culture itself is all about fear.  It is inherently cowardly.

The AR 15s typically have 20 or 30 round clips. Firing 700-900 rounds per minute would be impossible. I’ve carried one in combat and am 100% sure of this. The cops were there in mass and with a ton of weapons and body armor. They should’ve gone in. It’s a dangerous job but what they signed up for. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

12 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

The AR 15s typically have 20 or 30 round clips. Firing 700-900 rounds per minute would be impossible. I’ve carried one in combat and am 100% sure of this. The cops were there in mass and with a ton of weapons and body armor. They should’ve gone in. It’s a dangerous job but what they signed up for. 

We've tried telling him this and he only upped the ante to 1200-1300 rounds per minute. Many on here do not understand the laws of physics. Best you will get is an ICHY facepalm or thumbs down. 

[Gowebb11 9,345]

37 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

We've tried telling him this and he only upped the ante to 1200-1300 rounds per minute. Many on here do not understand the laws of physics. Best you will get is an ICHY facepalm or thumbs down. 

Thanks. I just like to keep things as fact based as possible. I don’t come to the Political board often. The 700-900 thing reminds me why. 😂

[icanthearyou 4,463]

16 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

The AR 15s typically have 20 or 30 round clips. Firing 700-900 rounds per minute would be impossible. I’ve carried one in combat and am 100% sure of this. The cops were there in mass and with a ton of weapons and body armor. They should’ve gone in. It’s a dangerous job but what they signed up for. 

I understand your point.  I understand that firing rates are achieved under optimum circumstances.  I understand these circumstances are not real world.

Now, let's all stop defending these weapons as though they are not the most efficient means of killing, readily available to almost anyone in our society.

Or,,, we can remain technically indifferent.

[wdefromtx 3,159]

2 hours ago, Gowebb11 said:

Thanks. I just like to keep things as fact based as possible. I don’t come to the Political board often. The 700-900 thing reminds me why. 😂

Nailed it.....you got the facepalm. LMAO

[Gowebb11 9,345]

3 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

I understand your point.  I understand that firing rates are achieved under optimum circumstances.  I understand these circumstances are not real world.

Now, let's all stop defending these weapons as though they are not the most efficient means of killing, readily available to almost anyone in our society.

Or,,, we can remain technically indifferent.

I didn’t defend the weapons did I? I noted your inaccuracy. I deplore violence of all sorts and agree that better vetting gun owners is part of the solution. But arguments are better received when facts are presented.  

[icanthearyou 4,463]

43 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

I didn’t defend the weapons did I? I noted your inaccuracy. I deplore violence of all sorts and agree that better vetting gun owners is part of the solution. But arguments are better received when facts are presented.  

It is the published capability of the weapon.  And again, let's not pretend that it is not a superior killing machine.  That does help the disingenuous "defense" of the weapon.

Edited April 10, 2023 by icanthearyou