“He has a battle rifle”: Police feared Uvalde gunman’s AR-15

[Mims44 1,869]

4 hours ago, Mikey said:

It is, but there's no practical way to stop it. If they don't get their weapon from a gun show they'll get it off the streets. Similar to opioids.

See, I would disagree... to a point.

There's no way to stop it, as in get it to '0' in a country of 300Mill +.... But saying people can't just sell to anyone with no checks at gun shows would lower it.

I have no data for school shootings, but goofballs in NE TN committing crime with handguns they went to a gun show and bought after a gun store told them they can't buy them.... There's a good bit.

 

 

And it's such a crazy loophole, imagine if you could sell liquor to a child with no repercussions if you simply did it at a farmers market. 

Or to use your opioid example, if I could set up shop right next to a pharmacy and sell them with no prescription. Sure people can find a dealer now, but if I could open a legal shop and just sell them that would exacerbate the problem for sure.

[AuCivilEng1 11,005]

18 hours ago, Mikey said:

Some fools think the solution is that more laws should be passed. The criminals who are ignoring current laws will also ignore the new laws but woke politicians can beat their chests and point to the useless laws they just passed.

Those same laws are working everywhere else in the world? So what’s your reasoning for that? Explain the map, please.

 

[AuCivilEng1 11,005]

Just now, AuCivilEng1 said:

Those same laws are working everywhere else in the world? So what’s your reasoning for that? Explain the map, please. The U.S and Cartel country! Leading the way! Aren’t you so proud?!

 

 

[AuCivilEng1 11,005]

7 hours ago, Mikey said:

It is, but there's no practical way to stop it. If they don't get their weapon from a gun show they'll get it off the streets. Similar to opioids.

Criminals don't like to be shot either. Specific to the school situation, arm teachers who volunteer to go through some basic firearms training. This won't 100% stop school shootings but it should cut way back on the numbers of incidents and the number of casualties per incident.

The statistics don’t back up your argument. At all. Facts don’t care about your feelings, Mikey.

[Mikey 16,586]

21 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

Like in the Uvalde shooting, the perpetrator obviously had no intention of coming out of that situation alive. If he didn't surrender during an hour standoff and forced a swat team to move in and take him out, he sure as hell wouldn't have cared if a few teachers at the school had a gun on them. Parkland had a armed school police officer on campus who ran away to call for backup. But you think teachers with guns would perform better in shooting situations than police officers do? 

 

There's no evidence that putting more guns in schools would solve anything. it wont have any affect on school shootings other than giving students easier access to guns that are assigned to teachers, and if the school guns are secured properly then a school shooting event would be well underway or even concluded before the schools specially trained SWAT teachers could get their guns unsecured and loaded to respond. 

 

 

 

In the Parkland case it wasn't a lack of a gun problem, it was a cowardly security officer problem. I think teachers with guns would certainly have an earlier opportunity to stop the incident from escalating.

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

10 minutes ago, Mikey said:

In the Parkland case it wasn't a lack of a gun problem, it was a cowardly security officer problem. I think teachers with guns would certainly have an earlier opportunity to stop the incident from escalating.

It wasn't just a 'security officer' The parkland SRO was a sworn police officer with 32 years experience and armed with a weapon right on his hip. He hid because he says he thought there was a sniper on the outside. 

 

But yeah...I'm sure an average science teacher would have been much more effective and brave than the police on scene.  

Edited March 24, 2023 by CoffeeTiger

[Mikey 16,586]

16 hours ago, AuCivilEng1 said:

Explain the map, please.

 

The major factor in the map is gang violence. If the sociologists were doing their jobs and had been doing it for decades your map would look very different. Trillions of dollars thrown up a wild hog's butt on the Great Society programs and it's successors and what we've got for it is cities that are basically war zones.

 

16 hours ago, AuCivilEng1 said:

The statistics don’t back up your argument. At all

I didn't argue that Americans don't have more guns. Americans like guns. We keep guns that are passed down for generations and buy new ones to add to the number. I buy guns and give one to family members when they turn 18 years old. What we need is more guns in the trained hands of good people. That would be the best deterrent to gun violence. Criminals don't like to get shot.

 

[icanthearyou 4,462]

They just aint enuff guns in are schools.  We got to get more guns. 

[Mikey 16,586]

5 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

But yeah...I'm sure an average science teacher would have been much more effective and brave than the police on scene.  

It's been widely reported that an unarmed teacher stopped one such incident. Just think how much better it would be if there had been several armed teachers at these schools. Police officer or teacher or janitor, it's about courage, not job description.

[CoffeeTiger 5,108]

1 minute ago, Mikey said:

It's been widely reported that an unarmed teacher stopped one such incident. Just think how much better it would be if there had been several armed teachers at these schools. Police officer or teacher or janitor, it's about courage, not job description.

This police chief disagrees. 

https://www.al.com/news/2022/06/alabama-police-chief-do-not-arm-teachers.html

Chief John Barber, who has headed up the Eastern Shore police agency since 2020, said he believes the addition of more guns into a school could complicate an active shooting scenario, and potentially lead police to misidentify a gunman. 

“We are complicating a matter by saying, ‘let’s arm teachers,’” said Barber. “From a law enforcement perspective, introducing additional guns doesn’t make sense to me,” he said. “Our teachers need to be educators.”

Barber noted that law enforcement officers receive over 800 hours of basic training, and additional training on firearms.

He said questions abound on how much training a teacher should get before he or she is allowed to carry a gun into a school.

“Where will you lock it?” Barber asked. “Do they know the rules of engagement and when to use force? How do we (the police) discern who is the shooter? I don’t think we need to complicate the situation by putting more guns into the school.”

Simpson added, “If someone in uniform says you walk into a scene and there are five people with a gun and you don’t know who the active shooter is, and that there is a danger of having a gun on campus and there are concerns of the gun getting into the wrong hands … then that becomes an extreme concern for law enforcement. I don’t think we serve the public well if you don’t take law enforcement concerns into consideration.”
 

[Mikey 16,586]

3 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Chief John Barber, who has headed up the Eastern Shore police agency since 2020, said he believes the addition of more guns into a school could complicate an active shooting scenario, and potentially lead police to misidentify a gunman. 

Yes. I have a relative in the upper levels of law enforcement. LEO's hate it when they arrive on a scene and civilians have guns. They don't hate it because the civilians can't solve the issue, they hate it for their personal safety. Me, I'd rather have an armed honest citizen on site now then wait 15 minutes for the police to arrive.

[AuCivilEng1 11,005]

10 minutes ago, Mikey said:

The major factor in the map is gang violence. If the sociologists were doing their jobs and had been doing it for decades your map would look very different. Trillions of dollars thrown up a wild hog's butt on the Great Society programs and it's successors and what we've got for it is cities that are basically war zones.

 

I didn't argue that Americans don't have more guns. Americans like guns. We keep guns that are passed down for generations and buy new ones to add to the number. I buy guns and give one to family members when they turn 18 years old. What we need is more guns in the trained hands of good people. That would be the best deterrent to gun violence. Criminals don't like to get shot.

 

Children don’t like to get shot either. Your solution is to force educators to carry guns and provide security detail for their classes against psychos with AR’s. What kind of country are you aiming for, Mikey? What kind of world is that to live in.

 

I served in the active duty military for 5 years. I did a tour in Afghanistan in that time. I was assigned to a convoy security detail for much of that tour. I carried around a condition 1 M4 for 7 straight months. When I first joined, I was incredibly intimidated by that rifle. But we trained, and trained, and trained, hours at the range. Classroom training, combat scenario training. Over and over. We earned the right to use that rifle, if we needed to. IN COMBAT! Certain weapons DO NOT belong in the hands of people who are unable or unwilling to spend the time needed to gain respect for them. And unless you’re in the military, with access to rigorous structured training by people who have had even more training, it doesn’t belong in your possession.
 

So no, civilian “good guys” have no business carrying around assault rifles. This isn’t the f***ing Wild West.

[AuCivilEng1 11,005]

26 minutes ago, Mikey said:

The major factor in the map is gang violence. If the sociologists were doing their jobs and had been doing it for decades your map would look very different. Trillions of dollars thrown up a wild hog's butt on the Great Society programs and it's successors and what we've got for it is cities that are basically war zones.

 

I didn't argue that Americans don't have more guns. Americans like guns. We keep guns that are passed down for generations and buy new ones to add to the number. I buy guns and give one to family members when they turn 18 years old. What we need is more guns in the trained hands of good people. That would be the best deterrent to gun violence. Criminals don't like to get shot.

 

You can’t have a war zone if you don’t have the tools to create a war zone.

An influx of guns + unregulated access to gun + poverty + very limited access to affordable mental healthcare unless you’re wealthy + laughably bad education funding= An environment that devolves into a War Zone. 
 

Republicans have offered zero solutions to any of the items I listed above. And in most cases have encouraged them to get worse. 

[Didba 5,256]

On 3/21/2023 at 2:51 PM, Mims44 said:

 

 

Look, I get peoples arguments for changes to the 2nd amendment, I get wanting to grab onto whatever narrative you think gives your side a chance to succeed. Heck, I can even get behind some changes. But don't let your want for change allow you to excuse the utterly reprehensible and cowardly actions of these police officers.

Whose excusing them?

[Didba 5,256]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:21 AM, icanthearyou said:

The AR-15 is the most popular rifle worldwide and it can easily fire as many as 800 – 1200 RPM depending on the version of the gun, caliber, and trigger.

In contrast with the AR-15, AK-47 rifles have an average fire rate of about 700 RPM. The AK-47 is also a popular rifle used by militaries and law enforcement around the world

The AR-10 is a semi-automatic rifle that is similar to the AR-15. It has a lower rate of fire, which means you can expect it to shoot at around 330 RPM. The AR-308 is another recent semi-automatic rifle similar to the AR-15 and it has an average rate of fire of about 450 RPM.

don’t you love it. 

 

[Mims44 1,869]

1 hour ago, Didba said:

Whose excusing them?

The very nature of the original article.

I covered it ... in that post?

[Mikey 16,586]

23 hours ago, AuCivilEng1 said:

Your solution is to force educators to carry guns

Nowhere did I say that. I clearly stated teachers who volunteered.

23 hours ago, AuCivilEng1 said:

So no, civilian “good guys” have no business carrying around assault rifles.

An AR-15 wouldn't be my choice for arming teachers, but I'd rather have a teacher with an AR-15 facing a criminal than have a teacher facing said criminal with his/her bare hands.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The real solution to the mass shooting problem is a more fair, equal, just society. As someone once preached,,, love, grace, mercy, charity. Unfortunately, we don't really believe any of that. Our faith is in unregulated capitalism, the power to exploit, the rewards of pure power.

[cptau 169]

5 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

The real solution to the mass shooting problem is a more fair, equal, just society. As someone once preached,,, love, grace, mercy, charity. Unfortunately, we don't really believe any of that. Our faith is in unregulated capitalism, the power to exploit, the rewards of pure power.

We’ve tried doing that starting with the LBJ Great Society.  Things have gotten worse with more violence and death. There is a culture of death in inner cities that spreads out to other areas.  

Most school shootings are black on black using handguns, usually in parking lots. The AR-15 shooters are usually white on white mass shootings  I’m OK with raising the purchase age for a semi auto rifle to 21 with a waiting period, if SCOTUS doesn’t eventually ban the age restrictions.  Handguns already have a 21 purchase age.  The inner city killers that make up less than 3% of the population commit over 50% of gun homicides in the US using handguns.  Tying to confiscate all  handguns is almost impossible.  Ask the Australians   

Changing the inner city culture will take decades, but maybe the only hope.  We’re not only faced with gun violence, but also a drug culture that is rotting away at the country.  The government some people want  to ban or heavily restrict guns can’t control illegal drugs or immigrant ion.  

 

 

 

 

[stoic-one 1,543]

Assault Rifles -> Made up term WRT to the commercially available AR15, now if it was a select fire(full auto/burst like an M4), then we "might" have something to discuss. Seems the ignorance of latching onto "AR" as an acronym for assault rifle, just won't go away.

Battle Rifle -> Where does one even start, see above.

The devastating 5.56 round designed and "created with the intent to injure"-> While certainly true, to an extent, when Eugene Stoner developed the original Armalite rifle it was NOT a 5.56 NATO weapon, that came later, it was originally chambered in .223 Remington. Let's not kid ourselves, this is essentially a 22 caliber bullet that travels twice as fast. Most of the concept for the rifles development was centered around a smaller round, lighter ammo load out, and thus more rounds could be brought onto the battlefield with less fatigue to the soldier.

It should be noted that the round the .223/5.56(~1300 ft. lbs) replaced, the 30-06(M1 rifle~3000 ft. lbs) and to some extent the 308/7.62x51(M14~2600 ft. lbs), have DOUBLE the muzzle energy.

I'm sorry, the premise of the originally linked article, is to me, laughable. There are around 22 states that either don't allow, or only allow with restrictions, the .223/5.56 round to be used for hunting. It is in fact that generally inefficient, for hunting purposes.

Generally, LEO's do what they're trained to do/not do. Whether the officers in this case screwed the pooch by not immediately engaging the shooter, supposedly the standard rules of engagement since Columbine, well...

[DKW 86 7,419]

Say this one more time. it is Scientific, Rational, and Truthful.

What do I want to do about guns? Let's start with a RADICAL change in Mental Illness laws and treatment. 

Last nite there were 330M Weapons in America.

Last nite 330M-100 did nothing wrong and will never do anything wrong. 

We have people that are so full of crap that they want to go after the 330M owned by honest law-abiding citizens that are never going to be used in any illegal way ever...

and do absolutely nothing against the 100 that are up to no good. 

 

[homersapien 11,371]

5 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Say this one more time. it is Scientific, Rational, and Truthful.

What do I want to do about guns? Let's start with a RADICAL change in Mental Illness laws and treatment. 

Last nite there were 330M Weapons in America.

Last nite 330M-100 did nothing wrong and will never do anything wrong. 

We have people that are so full of crap that they want to go after the 330M owned by honest law-abiding citizens that are never going to be used in any illegal way ever...

and do absolutely nothing against the 100 that are up to no good. 

 

Sounds fine in theory. 

But how does it account for the apparently high statistical correlation between the number of guns in a society and deaths by guns?   

And I could add that countries with low numbers of gun deaths imprison people at a lower per-capita rate than we do. (Actually, we are #1 in incarceration.)

But I agree regarding the mental illness aspect, although I suspect mental illness plays a minor role in the great majority of U.S. gun deaths.

Edited March 26, 2023 by homersapien

[Mims44 1,869]

On 3/25/2023 at 9:58 AM, Mikey said:

Nowhere did I say that. I clearly stated teachers who volunteered.

An AR-15 wouldn't be my choice for arming teachers, but I'd rather have a teacher with an AR-15 facing a criminal than have a teacher facing said criminal with his/her bare hands.

6 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Say this one more time. it is Scientific, Rational, and Truthful.

What do I want to do about guns? Let's start with a RADICAL change in Mental Illness laws and treatment. 

Last nite there were 330M Weapons in America.

Last nite 330M-100 did nothing wrong and will never do anything wrong. 

We have people that are so full of crap that they want to go after the 330M owned by honest law-abiding citizens that are never going to be used in any illegal way ever...

and do absolutely nothing against the 100 that are up to no good. 

 

24 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Sounds fine in theory. 

But how does it account for the apparently high statistical correlation between the number of guns in a society and deaths by guns?   

And I could add that countries with low numbers of gun deaths imprison people at a lower per-capita rate than we do. (Actually, we are #1 in incarceration.)

But I agree regarding the mental illness aspect, although I suspect mental illness plays a minor role in the great majority of U.S. gun deaths.

This isn't really concerning your post Mikey, But I'd like to get your thoughts as well.

Gun violence in schools (school shooters) have skyrockets since the late 90's. Fully automatic weapons (the kind that can and do fire over 600rounds a min) have been banned since the 80's.

If the amount of deaths by firearms have increased so dramatically AFTER the most dangerous firearms have been banned, does it stand to reason to any of you three that there might be some underlying cause?

 

And, what are yalls thoughts on media exposure? For sure the vast majority of school shooters are people that are not great ay anything, never a HS football captain or 1st chair or a leader for valedictorian or the 'most popular' It's usually some kids who are struggling on all fronts. They aren't seen, aren't heard, typically struggle with self image (more than an average teen), and depression. Now since columbine, there has been one sure way to get the notice of absolutely everyone, not just in your school and community, but across the country. Just load up a gun and start shooting innocents.

 

I doubt it will ever happen, but would you three think that if the media agreed to not show the face of the shooter or use his real name that there could be a drop in school shootings? If there is no fame or notoriety to be gained, then for a lot of these teens it becomes a truly senseless act. 

[DKW 86 7,419]

6 hours ago, Mims44 said:

This isn't really concerning your post Mikey, But I'd like to get your thoughts as well.

Gun violence in schools (school shooters) have skyrockets since the late 90's. Fully automatic weapons (the kind that can and do fire over 600rounds a min) have been banned since the 80's.

If the amount of deaths by firearms have increased so dramatically AFTER the most dangerous firearms have been banned, does it stand to reason to any of you three that there might be some underlying cause?

 

And, what are yalls thoughts on media exposure? For sure the vast majority of school shooters are people that are not great ay anything, never a HS football captain or 1st chair or a leader for valedictorian or the 'most popular' It's usually some kids who are struggling on all fronts. They aren't seen, aren't heard, typically struggle with self image (more than an average teen), and depression. Now since columbine, there has been one sure way to get the notice of absolutely everyone, not just in your school and community, but across the country. Just load up a gun and start shooting innocents.

 

I doubt it will ever happen, but would you three think that if the media agreed to not show the face of the shooter or use his real name that there could be a drop in school shootings? If there is no fame or notoriety to be gained, then for a lot of these teens it becomes a truly senseless act. 

1) I am for a RADICAL change in the Mental Illness laws and interaction. I do not oppose anything in the first tenets of DTP. It had at its center a great idea. Make Mental Illness a non-police responsibility. 

2) I am all for background checks and registration. 

3) IF we are going after gun deaths, then we are working on the issue from the completely wrong angle. There are almost 800 deaths in Chicago alone. Strongest most restrictive gun laws anywhere. We are instead of focusing on guns in the streets held by felons and criminals, we are focusing on....Law-Abiding Citizens.

4) My issue isn't against Sound Doctrine against these small dick idiots with a small arsenal to compensate for themselves. I want the work on guns TO ACTUALLY LOWER DEATHS. So far I have heard VERY little I think will actually do any good. They want to focus on law-abiding citizens and DO NOTHING about the actual guns in the streets. Criminals are just laughing at this crazy do-nothing ideas.

[Mikey 16,586]

19 hours ago, Mims44 said:

I doubt it will ever happen, but would you three think that if the media agreed to not show the face of the shooter or use his real name that there could be a drop in school shootings? If there is no fame or notoriety to be gained, then for a lot of these teens it becomes a truly senseless act. 

I think this would have a very positive effect in cutting down the number of school shootings. I don't think it ever will happen, just as getting firearms of the streets of America, regardless of laws, will never happen.