Shoney'sPonyBoy 351 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 44 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said: The 26% was a guess from one study the article mentioned, and was mainly making a point about how there are very likely many more atheists in America that don't self identify as such. But even if the guestimate from that study was accurate than 26% is still a small minority. That would make the rest of the 74% of the population religious in some way and affecting policy and government based on those ideals. You didn't read what I posted, I don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoney'sPonyBoy 351 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, homersapien said: BTW, that makes us 1 and 1 regarding the use of "always". Touche! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoney'sPonyBoy 351 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 33 minutes ago, homersapien said: I suggest you try not to be so absolutist in your interpretation of statements. It hinders understanding. I suggest you say what you mean and mean what you say. i can't think of a way to communicate an absoluist position than i can to have someone type "always" and then bold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeTiger 5,198 Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, Leftfield said: yeah...well... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,488 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 7 minutes ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said: I suggest you say what you mean and mean what you say. i can't think of a way to communicate an absoluist position than i can to have someone type "always" and then bold it. Fine, we're truly even now. "always"="always" and snitty jab=snitty jab (BTW, that second sentence of yours could use some work. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnatl1 5,201 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 2 hours ago, homersapien said: Fine, we're truly even now. "always"="always" and snitty jab=snitty jab (BTW, that second sentence of yours could use some work. ) Homer are you still bantering in this thread? For a subject so irrational to you, darn are you fascinated by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnatl1 5,201 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 2 hours ago, icanthearyou said: Some people cannot separate god from religion. They cannot separate following Jesus from, being "christian". Religions are man made. Religions have their own agendas. Christianity has deviated from the message of Jesus. People constantly misread, skip steps, and screw up instruction manuals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homersapien 11,488 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, auburnatl1 said: People constantly misread, skip steps, and screw up instruction manuals. Instruction manual?? I don't need no stinkin instruction manual! Edited October 24, 2023 by homersapien 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 82 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) I will agree with the premise of the article, specifically to those who worship an "all powerful" god. We need more atheists. Not because they are atheists, but because they reject the idea of an "all powerful" god. For example, all it takes to be an atheist is to have experienced or learned about any of the atrocities of life. If an "all powerful" god (for example the Christian god) were to tap me on the shoulder and present himself, I would still be an atheist. I would still choose to not believe that something or someone so evil exists. I think we all have experienced this feeling - learning about some evil act, and wishing that it did not happen. If you have experienced this, you have experienced atheism. Those who choose to worship an "all powerful" god logically fall into one of two camps: 1) Completely evil - they knowingly worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist. 2) Completely brainwashed by evil - they worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist, but aren't clever enough to understand they are worshiping this evil. So if I were drafting a population to fill my town, city, state, country, world, etc., and my choices were 1) evil, 2) brainwashed by evil, 3) none of the above... I choose 3. Edited October 26, 2023 by Aufan59 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoAU 1,604 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 So, the concept of free will eludes you, right? God doesn’t choose rape and murder, that is entirely man’s doing. You would rather have a god that enslaves you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 82 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 6 minutes ago, GoAU said: So, the concept of free will eludes you, right? God doesn’t choose rape and murder, that is entirely man’s doing. You would rather have a god that enslaves you? I don't see how free will is relevant here. I was speaking about the worship of an "all powerful" god. I could understand the belief (maybe not worship) of a not "all powerful" god that you mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoAU 1,604 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 I don’t think it’s that complicated. The God I mention is absolutely, as you say, “all powerful” or else He wouldn’t be God. Having power doesn’t me He exercises that power at all times. That is where free will comes into play - people are given the latitude to make their own choices. I don’t really like the analogy of “pets” but I think in some aspects it has its merits. Why do (some) people enjoy having a dog? Some dogs chew things up, go to the bathroom in the house, run away, etc? Why not just get a stuffed animal instead? Because a real dog can show affection, provide companionship, show affection, etc. that doesn’t happen with the stuffed animal because it doesn’t have free will - it can’t make the choice or decision. Life here is essentially a temporary stop along the way, just a decision point for who makes the cut for the next stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 82 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 1 hour ago, GoAU said: I don’t think it’s that complicated. The God I mention is absolutely, as you say, “all powerful” or else He wouldn’t be God. Having power doesn’t me He exercises that power at all times. That is where free will comes into play - people are given the latitude to make their own choices. I don’t really like the analogy of “pets” but I think in some aspects it has its merits. Why do (some) people enjoy having a dog? Some dogs chew things up, go to the bathroom in the house, run away, etc? Why not just get a stuffed animal instead? Because a real dog can show affection, provide companionship, show affection, etc. that doesn’t happen with the stuffed animal because it doesn’t have free will - it can’t make the choice or decision. Life here is essentially a temporary stop along the way, just a decision point for who makes the cut for the next stop. I agree it is not that complicated. If god is "all powerful", he could have created a world without rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide and abortion. He did not. And your justification? Because he wanted affection. God has pets because he wants affection, even if that means he runs a dog fighting ring to get that affection? An all powerful god created evil, thus an all powerful god is evil. Worship of him falls into category 2 I described above. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeTiger 5,198 Posted October 26, 2023 Author Share Posted October 26, 2023 12 hours ago, GoAU said: You would rather have a god that enslaves you? We have free will, but we're not free if we go by Religious beliefs. God may give us "free will", but he also says if we don't choose the 1 path that he wants us to take then he's going to send us to eternal suffering and punishment. That's really not any different than a slavemaster telling slaves that they need to do a certain task a certain way or they will be killed at the end of the day. That slave masters slaves may have the freewill to choose not to do what their master commanded of them and to do something else.....but at the end of the day if that task wasn't completed then they will die. If Religion is real then we are slaves created by God to serve him...He just gives us a very short period of time to exist before he punishes us for not following him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you're question is: 1) Would you rather be "enslaved" with no free will to a God that creates you in a perfect world, with no death, pain or suffering to live out eternity in paradise, but you have no choice but to worship that God. OR 2) Would you rather live in a world with pain, sickness, death, suffering, and sin BUT you can have a choice if you want to worship God or not in this life BUT If you choose not to worship that God then you'll suffer for eternity. So yes, for me personally, IF there is a real God as described in the bible I would rather have a perfect life without free will. That option would also certainly save the billions and billons of souls that are surely destined for eternal hell in our current world If the Bible is to be believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeTiger 5,198 Posted October 26, 2023 Author Share Posted October 26, 2023 3 hours ago, Aufan59 said: I agree it is not that complicated. If god is "all powerful", he could have created a world without rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide and abortion. He did not. And your justification? Because he wanted affection. God has pets because he wants affection, even if that means he runs a dog fighting ring to get that affection? An all powerful god created evil, thus an all powerful god is evil. Worship of him falls into category 2 I described above. Man, you log into a 20 year old account for the first time in 10 years and just dive hot into the political forum. Impressive. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icanthearyou 4,464 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 15 hours ago, Aufan59 said: I will agree with the premise of the article, specifically to those who worship an "all powerful" god. We need more atheists. Not because they are atheists, but because they reject the idea of an "all powerful" god. For example, all it takes to be an atheist is to have experienced or learned about any of the atrocities of life. If an "all powerful" god (for example the Christian god) were to tap me on the shoulder and present himself, I would still be an atheist. I would still choose to not believe that something or someone so evil exists. I think we all have experienced this feeling - learning about some evil act, and wishing that it did not happen. If you have experienced this, you have experienced atheism. Those who choose to worship an "all powerful" god logically fall into one of two camps: 1) Completely evil - they knowingly worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist. 2) Completely brainwashed by evil - they worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist, but aren't clever enough to understand they are worshiping this evil. So if I were drafting a population to fill my town, city, state, country, world, etc., and my choices were 1) evil, 2) brainwashed by evil, 3) none of the above... I choose 3. You are conflating God with religion. Jesus, the love of Jesus, is suppose to be what "christianity" is about. Unfortunately, the religion of "christianity" prefers more worldly pursuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoney'sPonyBoy 351 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 On 10/23/2023 at 3:02 PM, homersapien said: (BTW, that second sentence of yours could use some work. ) I agree. I was in a hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoney'sPonyBoy 351 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 20 hours ago, Aufan59 said: Quote If an "all powerful" god (for example the Christian god) were to tap me on the shoulder and present himself, I would still be an atheist. I would still choose to not believe that something or someone so evil exists. I'm glad you said this. IME this is really the foundational viewpoint of atheism. At least for people who would answer the hypothetical the way you did (and I really do commend you for being honest and admitting that no matter what the evidence, you still refuse to acknowledge it...most atheists will not). It has nothing to do with science, logic, reason, evidence, or anything else that many atheists claim. It is an emotional viewpoint based on actually refusing to accept logic, reason, evidence, etc. due to your own emotional bias. If God proved to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that He exists and you still "chose" to "not believe in Him," that really means you would know He exists...it would be impossible for you to not know it...but you reject Him because you think you know how the universe should run better than the entity who created it and you are angry that he has the power to do so and you don't. Quote I think we all have experienced this feeling - learning about some evil act, and wishing that it did not happen. If you have experienced this, you have experienced atheism. No. Not unless you would define Jesus as an atheist, and you'd also have to come up with some other classification for Stalin or Mao. Quote Those who choose to worship an "all powerful" god logically fall into one of two camps: 1) Completely evil - they knowingly worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist. 2) Completely brainwashed by evil - they worship someone/something who is responsible for rape, torture, murder, genocide, abortion, and every other evil atrocity that has ever and will ever exist, but aren't clever enough to understand they are worshiping this evil. Again, no. You said "logically." In truth, LOGICALLY, you don't even have any objective basis to consider the things you object to about the universe "evil" other than your own subjective opinion, which would hold no more water than anyone else's subjective opinion. You mean EMOTIONALLY ACCORDING TO ME, not logically. Speaking of people who are not clever enough to understand what they espouse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 82 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 (edited) If God proved to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that He exists and you still "chose" to "not believe in Him," that really means you would know He exists...it would be impossible for you to not know it...but you reject Him because you think you know how the universe should run better than the entity who created it and you are angry that he has the power to do so and you don't. I would be angry because he had the power to not create evil, yet he did. I would be angry because by definition he is evil. Again, no. You said "logically." In truth, LOGICALLY, you don't even have any objective basis to consider the things you object to about the universe "evil" other than your own subjective opinion, which would hold no more water than anyone else's subjective opinion. I consider things like genocide, torture, rape, and other atrocities are objectively evil. A world view that thinks this is subjective opinion is absolutely disgusting and unconscionable. Are you really taking that stance? Edited October 26, 2023 by Aufan59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoney'sPonyBoy 351 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 3 hours ago, Aufan59 said: Quote I consider things like genocide, torture, rape, and other atrocities are objectively evil. A world view that thinks this is subjective opinion is absolutely disgusting and unconscionable. Are you really taking that stance? I'm clarifying your stance. You claim you're arguing from logic and you aren't. For example, you said YOU consider the examples above to be evil. For the sake of argument, let's say I don't (I do, but not for the same reason as you). Make the LOGICAL argument to me that they are. Let's start from your a priori premise that the universe is uncreated, random, there's nothing or no one outside it, nothing and no one transcends it, and everything in it is nothing more than random particles of matter or aggregates of random particles of matter responding to purely impersonal physical forces (albeit configuring to sometimes create quite complex phenomena), including our thoughts, emotions, mental impulses, and behavior. Start there and make the logical argument that anything can be "good" or "evil" in the sense that those words have actual meanings beyond entirely subjective emotional experience. Include the concept of justice given the same criteria. Here's a hint. You can't. No one can. Basically what everyone who tries ends up doing is—either right off the bat, like you did, or eventually—sputtering, "Well, anybody who thinks rape isn't evil is disgusting." Notice I didn't say rape isn't disgusting. I think it is. And I can make a logical case based on my worldview that supports my opinion. I'm confident that you can't. But feel free to prove me wrong. Tell me how justice fits into a random entirely physical universe in which even the concept of individual personhood and free will to commit rape (or not) has to be nothing more than a persistent illusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 82 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 7 hours ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said: For example, you said YOU consider the examples above to be evil. For the sake of argument, let's say I don't (I do, but not for the same reason as you). Make the LOGICAL argument to me that they are. Evil is especially immoral. Morality is an agreed upon set of rules for society. We can get reductionist about this, but based on experiencing the human condition (being able to experience pain, sorrow, etc.), all reasonable people believe that the atrocities I have listed are especially immoral. Regardless, conversation and debate is about finding common ground. If we cannot agree on the basics that rape, genocide, torture, etc. are immoral, then we don't have common ground and further discussion is not warranted. Tell me how justice fits into a random entirely physical universe in which even the concept of individual personhood and free will to commit rape (or not) has to be nothing more than a persistent illusion. I have no interest is making this point, as there is no room for free will in the universe as we understand it. There is no inherent justice in the universe. It is a brutal place filled with pain, suffering, and misery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoney'sPonyBoy 351 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Aufan59 said: Quote Quote Morality is an agreed upon set of rules for society. So then back in Biblical times no one would have been evil for raping, plundering, or committing genocide against his enemy tribes. Those were agreed upon rules in ancient society. At one time not all too long ago, slavery was an agreed upon rule of society. According to your definition, slavery was moral in 1860. Quote We can get reductionist about this, No, logical. You claimed a LOGICAL argument. This is what LOGIC looks like. It actually has to have a reasonable foundation and be consistent. Quote but based on experiencing the human condition (being able to experience pain, sorrow, etc.), all reasonable people believe that the atrocities I have listed are especially immoral. Then what is the reasonable foundation for the universal belief? When you say "reasonable," that means that logical reasoning was used by all of these people to arrive at that conclusion. So what's the logic? You still haven't posted any. I've warned you and I will warn you again, starting with your a priori premise, there isn't any. If all we are is a relatively complex result of entirely impersonal physical forces, then raping or nurturing, killing or saving another human being is no different essentially than a river flowing downstream or air pockets creating weather. It may be different in terms of complexity or biological involvement, but not in essence. If your starting point is correct, there aren't any "people" to suffer in the first place or to cause suffering. Not the way we define that word for the purposes of defining morality, anyway. Not as a true distinct entity with free will and moral agency, which would be a foundational requirement for real morality to exist, even if you define morality as "popularity," which is how you defined it above. A person would still need to be a separate entity in some sense from the rest of the universe with a free will to either join the popular "morality" and choose to conform to it or not. If not, if your starting point is correct and human beings are simply part of the universal river of electrons flowing around the universe, including our thoughts, emotions, and sense of "self," then there's nothing significant about "morality" at all. Define it as you will, it doesn't mean anything or have any more significance than most humans (although not all) preferring pleasure to pain. That's not "reductionist," it's the actual application of logic. That's what logic and reason is. Again, you THINK you're using logic here and you are 100% using emotion. What you're arguing is empathy, which is an observation of emotion, not an application of logic. Most people (though not all) feel empathy to a certain degree and that's why the view you posted above is popular. My advice is to realize that and accept and admit it. You started this discussion off very well, telling the truth that you didn't care about evidence, that regardless of any evidence you were presented with, you would still reject God and implicitly admitting that you want to set yourself up to be God and judge Him rather than submitting to His judgement. That was the truth and you should have stuck to it, but as I have seen so many times before, you had to try to act like atheism is the stance of "reasonable" people. Actually, atheism is the most logically self-refuting position anybody can take. If I were one of you atheists I would embrace post-modernism instead and start arguing that reason and logic itself is invalid and obsolete. Because you're going to lose a logical debate every time...atheism can't stand up under logic unless the atheist admits the logical conclusion that materialist atheism = human beings do not truly have personhood, that there is no basis for any moral agency, free will, or even personal epistemology, and that nihilism is the inescapable result. Atheists will pretend to admit those things (as you did below), then make all sorts of statements implicitly refuting them. Moving on and going back to your examples of what all "reasonable" people believe, were people (pretty much all of them) not reasonable in ancient society when all of those "atrocities" were normal parts of life? Were most people not reasonable 200 years ago, when slavery was popular? Quote Regardless, conversation and debate is about finding common ground. The common ground I have requested is logic. You were the one who made disparaging statements about people who worship an all powerful God and you claimed you were making those statements on the basis of logic. So i have requested that you lay out the logic, which starts with presenting a logical case for your starting statement in that post, as I dispute it. I Quote f we cannot agree on the basics that rape, genocide, torture, etc. are immoral, then we don't have common ground and further discussion is not warranted. First of all, that premise is not even true; not from a logical standpoint anyway. Secondly, that's an intentional straw man. This will be the THIRD time that I have stated that I believe those things to be immoral. What I disagree with is everything else you've said, including WHY you deem those things to be immoral. I assert that you are the one without sufficient logical foundations to deem them immoral and have asked you to support them using logic, which as of yet, you have not done. Quote as there is no room for free will in the universe as we understand it. There is no inherent justice in the universe. It is a brutal place filled with pain, suffering, and misery. Then what's the problem with the above "atrocities?" How are they violating any aspect of an inherently injust, brutal, painful, miserable universe in which people have no ability to control their choices or their actions? Sounds to me like they fit right in. This is what I was talking about above. You pretend to admit those things about the universe because it's dawning on you that you can't logically refute them, but you still want to act scandalized by injustice, brutality, violence, unfairness, etc. How can you be outraged or scandalized by the universe acting like the universe? Edited October 27, 2023 by Shoney'sPonyBoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoney'sPonyBoy 351 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 I'm afraid I have made a mess of the above post by trying to quote and respond point by point. Hopefully you can sort it out. You may have to click on lots of the "quote" arrows to see everything that was posted. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj3jordan 2,078 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 On 10/26/2023 at 5:36 AM, Aufan59 said: I agree it is not that complicated. If god is "all powerful", he could have created a world without rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide and abortion. He did not. And your justification? Because he wanted affection. God has pets because he wants affection, even if that means he runs a dog fighting ring to get that affection? An all powerful god created evil, thus an all powerful god is evil. Worship of him falls into category 2 I described above. He did not. He did. Lucifer, the angel of Satan, cast out of Heaven, introduced evil to the world. Only if God created the universe would it have standards, laws, and morality. Randomly evolved primordial ooze that miraculously ends up being humans later on do not have standards, laws, and morality. You're distaste for rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide, and abortion (bonus points to you for including this in the "evil" column), despite your denial actually comes from the standards, laws, and morality created by God, instructed to us through the Bible (easy ICHY, just a reference), for the most part universally accepted as standards throughout the world except by communists, NAZIs, and goat humpers. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aufan59 82 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Shoney'sPonyBoy said: I'm afraid I have made a mess of the above post by trying to quote and respond point by point. Hopefully you can sort it out. You may have to click on lots of the "quote" arrows to see everything that was posted. My apologies. You're getting into a debate about the definition of morality, which is not my intention nor is it required for the point I was making. Instead, I start a point of presumed agreement: that rape, genocide, torture, etc. are especially immoral (evil). If you agree with that statement, then logically an all powerful god that created rape, genocide and torture is also especially immoral (evil). To go further, we don't even need to agree on what specific things are evil. We only need to agree that evil does indeed exist. If you believe evil exists, and believe in an all powerful god that created everything, then you believe in an evil god. I understand to refute this point you need to create a debate on morality, to give an all powerful god some wiggle room or ambiguity as an excuse for creating evil. I'd rather just say you are right about morality than argue about morality requiring free will, god, etc. Quote Then what's the problem with the above "atrocities?" How are they violating any aspect of an inherently injust, brutal, painful, miserable universe in which people have no ability to control their choices or their actions? Sounds to me like they fit right in. This is what I was talking about above. You pretend to admit those things about the universe because it's dawning on you that you can't logically refute them, but you still want to act scandalized by injustice, brutality, violence, unfairness, etc. How can you be outraged or scandalized by the universe acting like the universe? I assure you I'm not pretending, nor is this stance is donning on me right now. I am not outraged or scandalized by the universe acting like the universe. However I would be outraged if the universe acted like this at the hands of all powerful creator. Luckily I have no logical reason to believe that there is an all powerful creator - and as you point out, no emotion reason to believe it either. Edited October 28, 2023 by Aufan59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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