America doesn’t need more God. It needs more atheists.

[Aufan59 83]

18 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

He did not.

He did. Lucifer, the angel of Satan, cast out of Heaven, introduced evil to the world. Only if God created the universe would it have standards, laws, and morality. Randomly evolved primordial ooze that miraculously ends up being humans later on do not have standards, laws, and morality.  You're distaste for rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide, and abortion (bonus points to you for including this in the "evil" column), despite your denial actually comes from the standards, laws, and morality created by God, instructed to us through the Bible (easy ICHY, just a reference), for the most part universally accepted as standards throughout the world except by communists, NAZIs, and goat humpers.

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

[homersapien 11,500]

On 10/27/2023 at 11:03 AM, jj3jordan said:

He did not.

He did. Lucifer, the angel of Satan, cast out of Heaven, introduced evil to the world. Only if God created the universe would it have standards, laws, and morality. Randomly evolved primordial ooze that miraculously ends up being humans later on do not have standards, laws, and morality.  You're distaste for rape, incest, murder, torture, genocide, and abortion (bonus points to you for including this in the "evil" column), despite your denial actually comes from the standards, laws, and morality created by God, instructed to us through the Bible (easy ICHY, just a reference), for the most part universally accepted as standards throughout the world except by communists, NAZIs, and goat humpers.

That sounds like something straight out of a Marvel comic book.

(Except for the last sentence, which sounds like something out of Mein Kampf.)

Edited October 30, 2023 by homersapien

[jj3jordan 2,078]

42 minutes ago, homersapien said:

That sounds like something straight out of a Marvel comic book.

Except for the last sentence, which sounds like something out of Mein Kampf.

Good lines homer.  Bust them out when you are in the seat.

 

[jj3jordan 2,078]

6 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

Lucifer was an Angel in Heaven before the fall. So God created him. Lucifer brought evil to the earth where we are free to choose to believe in God or reject God. But when God created Adam and Eve, there was no evil. Not until Adam and Eve chose to sin despite clear instruction from God. 

[Aufan59 83]

25 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Lucifer was an Angel in Heaven before the fall. So God created him. Lucifer brought evil to the earth where we are free to choose to believe in God or reject God. But when God created Adam and Eve, there was no evil. Not until Adam and Eve chose to sin despite clear instruction from God. 

I was quoting the Bible.  I guess that passage is wrong?

[Leftfield 2,703]

On 10/26/2023 at 8:42 PM, Shoney'sPonyBoy said:

I'm clarifying your stance.  You claim you're arguing from logic and you aren't.

For example, you said YOU consider the examples above to be evil.  For the sake of argument, let's say I don't (I do, but not for the same reason as you).

Make the LOGICAL argument to me that they are.

Let's start from your a priori premise that the universe is uncreated, random, there's nothing or no one outside it, nothing and no one transcends it, and everything in it is nothing more than random particles of matter or aggregates of random particles of matter responding to purely impersonal physical forces (albeit configuring to sometimes create quite complex phenomena), including our thoughts, emotions, mental impulses, and behavior.

Start there and make the logical argument that anything can be "good" or "evil" in the sense that those words have actual meanings beyond entirely subjective emotional experience.  Include the concept of justice given the same criteria.

Here's a hint.  You can't.  No one can.

Basically what everyone who tries ends up doing is—either right off the bat, like you did, or eventually—sputtering, "Well, anybody who thinks rape isn't evil is disgusting."  Notice I didn't say rape isn't disgusting.  I think it is.  And I can make a logical case based on my worldview that supports my opinion. 

I'm confident that you can't.

But feel free to prove me wrong.  Tell me how justice fits into a random entirely physical universe in which even the concept of individual personhood and free will to commit rape (or not) has to be nothing more than a persistent illusion.

Morality being subjective is not a new concept. Morals of any society change, and not all societies share all the same morals. Take your example of rape: it wasn't all that long ago that a woman married to a man was seen as his property, to do with what he pleased. Marital rape wasn't even outlawed completely in this country until 1993. That seems insane to us now, but considering it was only 30 years ago it shows that we're not exactly the enlightened people many like to think we are. 

Moral subjectivity is actually indirectly pointed out in a thread on the Smack Talk board: how the percentage of Republicans and white Protestants that believe violence may be necessary to "save" the country because it's gotten "off track" is higher than other groups, but that the percentage of all groups believing that has gone up quite a bit, just in the past two years. By definition that means morality is subjective. A person's willingness to do something morally repugnant changes with their circumstances, and if circumstances change for enough people, then society's willingness also changes. 

You seem to be saying, based on your statement I bolded above, that rape being disgusting can only be logically explained by God's installing a moral code in us. Do you not see that that explanation is just as subjective as any other? It still requires a framework built around faith in God. Many other societies also agree it is disgusting despite not believing in the same God. Furthermore, I can logically explain that it's disgusting based on my belief that intentionally causing hurt to another person is wrong, even though not all people on this planet agree and by definition that makes my moral view subjective. Your stating that it can only be logically explained by God is circular.

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Leftfield

[jj3jordan 2,078]

1 hour ago, Aufan59 said:

I was quoting the Bible.  I guess that passage is wrong?

The passage is not wrong. Your understanding of it is. You seem to think God “causes” evil to be perpetrated on a person. The quoted passage says God created evil, which He did by creating Lucifer and expelling him from Heaven. Lucifer has perpetrated evil on the earth ever since. Don’t blame God for what Godless people do.

[Aufan59 83]

8 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

The passage is not wrong. Your understanding of it is. You seem to think God “causes” evil to be perpetrated on a person. The quoted passage says God created evil, which He did by creating Lucifer and expelling him from Heaven. Lucifer has perpetrated evil on the earth ever since. Don’t blame God for what Godless people do.

 

If god is all powerful, then he knew exactly what he was doing, and the result of what he created.  And he did not have to create it this way, or at all.

An all powerful god that creates evil is evil.  People who worship an all power god are worshiping evil. 

 

 

[jj3jordan 2,078]

11 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

 

If god is all powerful, then he knew exactly what he was doing, and the result of what he created.  And he did not have to create it this way, or at all.

An all powerful god that creates evil is evil.  People who worship an all power god are worshiping evil. 

 

 

I hope you can understand God’s righteousness and mercy before your soul is required. 🙏

[homersapien 11,500]

15 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

I hope you can understand God’s righteousness and mercy before your soul is required. 🙏

You just proved his point.

[icanthearyou 4,464]

25 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You just proved his point.

Or, at the very least, how humans attempt to drag god into their own hypocrisy, their own ideology.

[jj3jordan 2,078]

2 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Or, at the very least, how humans attempt to drag god into their own hypocrisy, their own ideology.

Nope, just a prediction of our eventual passing. 

[auburnatl1 5,227]

18 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

An all powerful god that creates evil is evil.  People who worship an all power god are worshiping evil. 

If your point is the child with cancer scenario. It has been struggled with for centuries. The issue is trying to grasp omnipotence when we are not. However, your god is evil point is being needlessly  provocative and imo shows a lack of understanding of the gospels.
 

@jj3jordan ‘s “soul” point I personally don’t agree with. I fully understand the “or else” clause but don’t think thats necessary when discussing faith.

[Aufan59 83]

23 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

If your point is the child with cancer scenario. It has been struggled with for centuries. The issue is trying to grasp omnipotence when we are not. However, your god is evil point is being needlessly  provocative and imo shows a lack of understanding of the gospels.
 

@jj3jordan ‘s “soul” point I personally don’t agree with. I fully understand the “or else” clause but don’t think thats necessary when discussing faith.

There is no struggle, the answer is very simple, don’t worship an evil god.   Don’t worship evil is not a provocative position.

 

What is provocative are those who suggest you should worship evil or you will be punished.  I forgive them though, as they are the #2 category I originally mentioned, brainwashed by evil.

 

 

[auburnatl1 5,227]

4 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

There is no struggle, the answer is very simple, don’t worship an evil god.   Don’t worship evil is not a provocative position.

 

What is provocative are those who suggest you should worship evil or you will be punished.  I forgive them though, as they are the #2 category I originally mentioned, brainwashed by evil.

 

 

Not even sure what you’re talking about but if you can read the 4 gospels and see “evil”… ok. People are wired how they’re wired.

[Leftfield 2,703]

1 hour ago, auburnatl1 said:

Not even sure what you’re talking about but if you can read the 4 gospels and see “evil”… ok. People are wired how they’re wired.

Subjective morality 😁

[SaltyTiger 7,901]

On 10/27/2023 at 5:25 PM, Aufan59 said:

I was quoting the Bible.  I guess that passage is wrong?

No it is not wrong. In context of the Old Testament God did create evil or in Hebrew “calamity”. Isaiah is not referring to moral evil. 

[Aufan59 83]

23 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Not even sure what you’re talking about but if you can read the 4 gospels and see “evil”… ok. People are wired how they’re wired.

But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).

 

 

It was possible for an all powerful god to create this world without rape, genocide, torture, child cancer.  But he did not.

 

Why not?  The simplest and most logical answer is that he is evil.

 

 

[auburnatl1 5,227]

15 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).

 

 

It was possible for an all powerful god to create this world without rape, genocide, torture, child cancer.  But he did not.

 

Why not?  The simplest and most logical answer is that he is evil.

 

 

God created.. rape? Vs choice and free will? Sounds like you have a species accountability issue.

[SaltyTiger 7,901]

30 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

It was possible for an all powerful god to create this world without rape, genocide, torture, child cancer.  But he did not.

Yes, he could have created robots. I would say he gave choices and allows evil.
 

Cancer, natural disasters, … some things we can’t understand this side of eternity. God views things on an infinite basis unrestricted by time. We can only see them temporal

[SaltyTiger 7,901]

33 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

Why not?  The simplest and most logical answer is that he is evil.

You are right in that probably being the easiest or most convenient way to look at it.

[Aufan59 83]

3 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

God created.. rape? Vs choice and free will? Sounds like you have a species accountability issue.

Yes, an all powerful god created everything.  Even the bad things.  Maybe you don’t believe in an all powerful god, which is respectable.

[auburnatl1 5,227]

6 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

Yes, an all powerful god created everything.  Even the bad things.  Maybe you don’t believe in an all powerful god, which is respectable.

So who created the Golden Gate Bridge? 

[jj3jordan 2,078]

5 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

But Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).

 

 

It was possible for an all powerful god to create this world without rape, genocide, torture, child cancer.  But he did not.

 

Why not?  The simplest and most logical answer is that he is evil.

 

 

None of that existed at creation. It came later after evil entered the world. See that is even simpler. You can answer it without blaspheming God.

[Aufan59 83]

12 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

None of that existed at creation. It came later after evil entered the world. See that is even simpler. You can answer it without blaspheming God.

If god is all powerful and knows the past, present and future, then he knew what he was creating and the results of what he was creating.  An all powerful god that created everything must have created evil.  Intentionally creating evil in my opinion makes you evil.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Aufan59