U.S. Block UN Ceasefire Resolution

[icanthearyou 4,463]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-vote-delayed-demand-gaza-humanitarian-ceasefire-2023-12-08/

 

How can a "Christian nation" block an effort to restore peace and humanity?   We are not who we say we are, what we believe we are.

[SaltyTiger 7,812]

12 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-vote-delayed-demand-gaza-humanitarian-ceasefire-2023-12-08/

 

How can a "Christian nation" block an effort to restore peace and humanity?   We are not who we say we are, what we believe we are.

Will a cease fire “restore peace and humanity”?
 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-resolution-ceasefire-humanitarian-6d3bfd31d6c25168e828274d96b85cf8

U.S. deputy ambassador Robert Wood called the resolution “imbalanced” and criticized the council after the vote for its failure to condemn Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel in which the militants killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, or to acknowledge Israel’s right to defend itself. He declared that halting military action would allow Hamas to continue to rule Gaza and “only plant the seeds for the next war.”

“Hamas has no desire to see a durable peace, to see a two-state solution,” Wood said before the vote. “For that reason, while the United States strongly supports a durable peace, in which both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security, we do not support calls for an immediate cease-fire.”

[AU9377 4,935]

Because peace and humanity will only be achievable with the elimination of Hamas and the other extremist nut cases that use terror and the murder of innocents as their way of life.

[auburnatl1 4,935]

30 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

Because peace and humanity will only be achievable with the elimination of Hamas and the other extremist nut cases that use terror and the murder of innocents as their way of life.

While I don’t have a better solution, managing expectations - this won’t eliminate Hamas. Maybe slow it down and rename it for a year.  The reality is this many collateral  civilian casualties  (family, friends) is the ultimate terrorist  recruitment program.

[I_M4_AU 7,848]

15 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

The reality is this many collateral  civilian casualties  (family, friends) is the ultimate terrorist  recruitment program.

I really can’t believe anybody would still believe this *recruitment program* nonsense.  Iran and their proxies have been indoctrinating their youth since birth, they have a martyr program that pays the families of those that give their lives for the cause and convince their people that life begins when you die.  They (the radicals) don’t think like we do and when they do terrorists acts, we wait a month before we start siding with the terrorists.  Unbelievable.

Has the billions of dollars we have poured into the Middle East kept them from chanting Death to America?  and it never will.

I do have faith that Mossad will root out and eliminate the leaders of Hamas.

[auburnatl1 4,935]

11 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I really can’t believe anybody would still believe this *recruitment program* nonsense.  Iran and their proxies have been indoctrinating their youth since birth, they have a martyr program that pays the families of those that give their lives for the cause and convince their people that life begins when you die.  They (the radicals) don’t think like we do and when they do terrorists acts, we wait a month before we start siding with the terrorists.  Unbelievable.

Has the billions of dollars we have poured into the Middle East kept them from chanting Death to America?  and it never will.

I do have faith that Mossad will root out and eliminate the leaders of Hamas.

We wouldnt care about the Middle East or poured billions into it if it didn’t produce 10s of trillions in oil.  Promise.

Im sure they will get the leaders. The Israeli military is formidable.  But in the long term if you think this solves… literally anything - we disagree.

This isn’t the basic bully on the playground problem.

[AU9377 4,935]

53 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

While I don’t have a better solution, managing expectations - this won’t eliminate Hamas. Maybe slow it down and rename it for a year.  The reality is this many collateral  civilian casualties  (family, friends) is the ultimate terrorist  recruitment program.

What it will eliminate are those individuals within Hamas leadership that approved the unprovoked killing of over 1200 people, taking of 248 hostages and the raping of women and mutilation of women and infants as young as 3 months old in Israel on October 7, 2023. 

Nothing will eliminate radical extremism, but the extremists and those that allow them to live among them will be forced to see the consequences of their actions.

[AU9377 4,935]

3 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

We wouldnt care about the Middle East or poured billions into it if it didn’t produce 10s of trillions in oil.  Promise.

Im sure they will get the leaders. The Israeli military is formidable.  But in the long term if you think this solves… literally anything - we disagree.

This isn’t the basic bully on the playground problem.

We would care about the security of Israel and its right to exist if there was no oil ever pumped from that part of the world.  As for the rest of it, I agree.  The problem is that the majority of those countries have very little respect for basic human rights.  I would like nothing more than for there to be a peaceful resolution, but that is impossible when one side publicly calls for the total destruction of the other.

[auburnatl1 4,935]

5 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

What it will eliminate are those individuals within Hamas leadership that approved the unprovoked killing of over 1200 people, taking of 248 hostages and the raping of women and mutilation of women and infants as young as 3 months old in Israel on October 7, 2023. 

Nothing will eliminate radical extremism, but the extremists and those that allow them to live among them will be forced to see the consequences of their actions.

I agree with you. The leaders and participants must pay. Rule of law. However, the non surgical attacks were clumsy, felt like rage and retribution, and the collateral damage is … not symmetrical.   

If a you’re a young man in school and a bomb kills your mother and sister - I’m guessing your first instinct won’t be trying to understand consequences. Just pay back.

[auburnatl1 4,935]

25 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

We would care about the security of Israel and its right to exist if there was no oil ever pumped from that part of the world.  As for the rest of it, I agree.  The problem is that the majority of those countries have very little respect for basic human rights.  I would like nothing more than for there to be a peaceful resolution, but that is impossible when one side publicly calls for the total destruction of the other.

I lived in Tel Aviv for two years and found that 90% of Americans couldn’t get within 500 miles of identifying Israel on a map. I understand your moral sentiment and believe most Americans share it, and the Jewish community has a lot of influence. But ultimately, we have had carrier groups assigned around the Middle East for 50 years for a very specific reason. 

Btw most of Ukraine is christian and much of maga wants to bail on them. Confusing.

Edited December 11, 2023 by auburnatl1

[cptau 169]

1 hour ago, auburnatl1 said:

I lived in Tel Aviv for two years and found that 90% of Americans couldn’t get within 500 miles of identifying Israel on a map. I understand your moral sentiment and believe most Americans share it, and the Jewish community has a lot of influence. But ultimately, we have had carrier groups assigned around the Middle East for 50 years for a very specific reason. 

Btw most of Ukraine is christian and much of maga wants to bail on them. Confusing.

In the Ukraine Russian war it’s become a WWI type stalemate. Neither side can seem to knock the other out.  The US and NATO are playing by rules to not force Russia into going nuclear. Thus this ground warfare drags on as both sides drop artillery shells on each other. Shells we manufacture and ship to Ukraine.  If nukes weren’t involved the war would be over by now. NATO and the US are tired of paying.  Israel has a plan to eradicate Hamas in Gaza if they are allowed to see it through.  What to do with Gaza after this is over is the real problem.   Turning policing of Gaza over to a neutral country or the UN peacekeeping force might work, but it will take several years..

[cptau 169]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

What it will eliminate are those individuals within Hamas leadership that approved the unprovoked killing of over 1200 people, taking of 248 hostages and the raping of women and mutilation of women and infants as young as 3 months old in Israel on October 7, 2023. 

Nothing will eliminate radical extremism, but the extremists and those that allow them to live among them will be forced to see the consequences of their actions.

We tried that in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We were told several times that a head terrorist or 2nd in charge was killed.  They just promoted others to take their places.  After 20 years the Afghan army ran off allowing the taliban to take over as US troops left. 

[auburnatl1 4,935]

4 minutes ago, cptau said:

In the Ukraine Russian war it’s become a WWI type stalemate. Neither side can seem to knock the other out.  The US and NATO are playing by rules to not force Russia into going nuclear. Thus this ground warfare drags on as both sides drop artillery shells on each other. Shells we manufacture and ship to Ukraine.  If nukes weren’t involved the war would be over by now. NATO and the US are tired of paying.  Israel has a plan to eradicate Hamas in Gaza if they are allowed to see it through.  What to do with Gaza after this is over is the real problem.   Turning policing of Gaza over to a neutral country or the UN peacekeeping force might work, but it will take several years..

I agree with your general status of the Ukraine war.  Both conflicts require a focus on the long game. Which democracies struggle with.

[I_M4_AU 7,848]

9 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

This isn’t the basic bully on the playground problem.

We’ve allowed that bully a voice and we are paying the price.  The elite colleges are even taking their side disguised as *free speech*.  Where is the universal condemnation?  That has nothing to do with oil, but it does have a lot to do with what is right.  We are enabling terrorism and this administration is straddling the fence.

[AU9377 4,935]

8 hours ago, cptau said:

We tried that in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We were told several times that a head terrorist or 2nd in charge was killed.  They just promoted others to take their places.  After 20 years the Afghan army ran off allowing the taliban to take over as US troops left. 

We spent 20 years in Afghanistan and $2 trillion attempting to build a better country.  That also didn't work.  Therefore, the argument can be made that nothing will effectively work and that force is the only deterrent.  Doing nothing is not an option.

[homersapien 11,379]

13 hours ago, AU9377 said:

What it will eliminate are those individuals within Hamas leadership that approved the unprovoked killing of over 1200 people, taking of 248 hostages and the raping of women and mutilation of women and infants as young as 3 months old in Israel on October 7, 2023. 

Nothing will eliminate radical extremism, but the extremists and those that allow them to live among them will be forced to see the consequences of their actions.

I think auburnatl1's point is that for every Hamas leader they kill, >/=  1 will be created.  I think he's right.

Here's an excerpt from an article on the Hamas leader who is the mastermind of the Oct. 7 terrorism (#1 on Israel's hit list, Yeshiya Sinwar):

To understand Sinwar, one must first understand where he came from, said his former prison mate Esmat Mansour.

“He said his family lived in tragedy,” Mansour recalled. “He said these memories wouldn’t leave him.”

Sinwar was born in Gaza’s Khan Younis refugee camp in 1962. His family was forced out of the Palestinian town of Madjal in the wake of Israel’s 1948 war for independence, a period known to Arabs as the Nakba, or “catastrophe,” when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced.

Israeli operations uprooted Palestinians in 1948. Many fear a repeat.

After Madjal was emptied of its Palestinian population — the last residents were deported in 1950 — Israel renamed the city Ashkelon. Sinwar would later spend time in jail there.

By the time he was born, the refugee tents among the sand dunes at Khan Younis had been replaced by small cinder block houses, but conditions were still dire.

Sinwar talked about the lack of sanitation and the struggle to live on U.N. handouts, said Mansour.

“He’d always go back to these stories when he’d tell us to struggle against the occupation,” Mansour said. Sinwar fiercely opposed the 1993 Oslo accords, the U.S.-brokered agreement that outlined a two-state solution to the conflict.

“He was a radical,” Mansour said. “He wanted to fight back.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/11/hamas-leader-yahya-sinwar-israel-war/

 

Granted, he's also a psychopath, but some percentage of all populations are psychopaths.  That just turns a "normal" resister into a sadistic one.

Until a political solution is worked out that allows for Palestinians to live relatively prosperous, normal lives, such "leaders" - will continue to emerge from existing conditions.  Kill all of the leaders,  Hamas - or the equivalent - will regenerate under the same conditions.

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by homersapien

[icanthearyou 4,463]

13 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

We wouldnt care about the Middle East or poured billions into it if it didn’t produce 10s of trillions in oil.  Promise.

I would argue that the real reason is support of oil trading in dollars.  No matter (virtually the same).  The point is,,, we further our economic interests, not democracy, not humanity.

Our real religion is capitalism.  Our real god is money/power.  Our history of foreign policy really should be all of the evidence you need.

[auburnatl1 4,935]

2 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I would argue that the real reason is support of oil trading in dollars.  No matter (virtually the same).  The point is,,, we further our economic interests, not democracy, not humanity.

Our real religion is capitalism.  Our real god is money/power.  Our history of foreign policy really should be all of the evidence you need.

It’s broader than simply a capitalism thing - every economic system - communists, socialists, and free enterprise based countries all do the same thing. Oil is energy, and energy is existential.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

7 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

It’s broader than simply a capitalism thing - every economic system - communists, socialists, and free enterprise based countries all do the same thing. Oil is energy, and energy is existential.

Sure but,,, we are the ones who claim to be only motivated by spreading democracy and human rights.  We would be a more righteous, more humanitarian force if we actually practiced what we profess.

We are serving the interests of a few at the expense of many, our integrity, our future.  Our only true motives are money and power. 

We are by far the wealthiest country in human history yet,,, poverty is expanding, civility is fractured, the government is heavily in debt, we have a massive trade deficit, we cannot spend enough on our military.  It is insane.

 

[homersapien 11,379]

18 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I would argue that the real reason is support of oil trading in dollars.  No matter (virtually the same).  The point is,,, we further our economic interests, not democracy, not humanity.

Our real religion is capitalism.  Our real god is money/power.  Our history of foreign policy really should be all of the evidence you need.

There's a lot of truth to that. Support for Israel is often justified as support for the only real democracy in the middle east (which is why Netanyahu election is so distressing, at least to me.)

But don't underestimate the significance religion plays in that support, which is pervasive IMO.  "Judeo/Christian" values and God's chosen people play an integral and significant role IMO.

I value the political perspective, but not the religious aspect. (Surely to no one's surprise. )

[AU9377 4,935]

54 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I think auburnatl1's point is that for every Hamas leader they kill, >/=  1 will be created.  I think he's right.

Here's an excerpt from an article on the Hamas leader who is the mastermind of the Oct. 7 terrorism (#1 on Israel's hit list, Yeshiya Sinwar):

To understand Sinwar, one must first understand where he came from, said his former prison mate Esmat Mansour.

“He said his family lived in tragedy,” Mansour recalled. “He said these memories wouldn’t leave him.”

Sinwar was born in Gaza’s Khan Younis refugee camp in 1962. His family was forced out of the Palestinian town of Madjal in the wake of Israel’s 1948 war for independence, a period known to Arabs as the Nakba, or “catastrophe,” when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced.

Israeli operations uprooted Palestinians in 1948. Many fear a repeat.

After Madjal was emptied of its Palestinian population — the last residents were deported in 1950 — Israel renamed the city Ashkelon. Sinwar would later spend time in jail there.

By the time he was born, the refugee tents among the sand dunes at Khan Younis had been replaced by small cinder block houses, but conditions were still dire.

Sinwar talked about the lack of sanitation and the struggle to live on U.N. handouts, said Mansour.

“He’d always go back to these stories when he’d tell us to struggle against the occupation,” Mansour said. Sinwar fiercely opposed the 1993 Oslo accords, the U.S.-brokered agreement that outlined a two-state solution to the conflict.

“He was a radical,” Mansour said. “He wanted to fight back.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/11/hamas-leader-yahya-sinwar-israel-war/

 

Granted, he's also a psychopath, but some percentage of all populations are psychopaths.  That just turns a "normal" resister into a sadistic one.

Until a political solution is worked out that allows for Palestinians to live relatively prosperous, normal lives, such "leaders" - will continue to emerge from existing conditions.  Kill all of the leaders,  Hamas - or the equivalent - will regenerate under the same conditions.

 

 

 

That may be true, but they simply have little choice when it comes to a response.  It is a false premise to claim that Hamas has no support amongst the Palestinians in Gaza.  They have widespread support.  Israel is justified in clearing every tunnel, bunker, and building of any sort of weapon capable of causing harm to Israel.  They are in the process of doing that now.  It is ugly and it is very regrettable that so many lives have been lost, but the alternative is to leave Gaza armed and capable of doing the same thing again in a few months.  How proportional was our response to 9/11?  Now imagine if 9/11 had been launched from Cuba or the Dominican Republic.  We would have left no stone in place until every person responsible had been killed or captured and a new government installed.  I can't act like Israel doesn't have that same right.

 

Israel isn't perfect by any measure, but Israel did not instigate this fight.  At the end of the day, we have to choose who our friends are and the choice is crystal clear when the choices are Israel or extremist terrorists.

Edited December 11, 2023 by AU9377

[auburnatl1 4,935]

3 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Sure but,,, we are the ones who claim to be only motivated by spreading democracy and human rights.  We would be a more righteous, more humanitarian force if we actually practiced what we profess.

We are serving the interests of a few at the expense of many, our integrity, our future.  Our only true motives are money and power. 

We are by far the wealthiest country in human history yet,,, poverty is expanding, civility is fractured, the government is heavily in debt, we have a massive trade deficit, we cannot spend enough on our military.  It is insane.

 

I certainly don’t think we’re “righteous” but our good guy vs bad guy batting average is imo better than most. Where you and I disagree (and always will) is on the concept of greed and power. You believe that if you create a strong centralized gov to redistribute and regulate profit-based companies and individual wealth that the playing field can be leveled. A fair police. I believe that it’s  the human condition not gov that’s the issue - and if you make gov too big and powerful - you’ve just moved the power/greed problem - gov inevitably will evolve into autocratic monopoly that’s worse than companies (ie Russia and China). There is no panacea. And before  you start on Norway or the gilded age - I understand your point and chances are the right answer is a hybrid of our 2 positions.

Sorry for the derailment - back on topic and bombing the hell out of gaza.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

There's a lot of truth to that. Support for Israel is often justified as support for the only real democracy in the middle east (which is why Netanyahu election is so distressing, at least to me.)

But don't underestimate the significance religion plays in that support, which is pervasive IMO.  "Judeo/Christian" values and God's chosen people play an integral and significant role IMO.

I value the political perspective, but not the religious aspect. (Surely to no one's surprise. )

Yes, Christian Zionist are part of the "support".  However, I believe that is about internal politics.  Foreign policy comes down from a higher authority,,, Wall St.

Internal politics has never seemed to affect the most basic foreign policy decisions.  Republicans and Democrats are usually lock step in "defending American interests".

Yes, interesting that "christians" will value the words of ancient prophets rather than the very words of Jesus.  Interesting that "christians" will deny the commandment of Jesus Himself to promote peace and humanity while forsaking the worldly goals of money and power.  Christians can no longer separate religion from God.  As Jesus told the religious leaders of the day,,, "you do not need Me".  The love of Jesus is no longer the basis of Christianity for far too many.  Combining religion and politics kills god.  Combining religion and politics is nothing more than an exercise in power, division, control, economic exploitation.

The real message of Jesus is being destroyed from within the Church by virtue of economics, prejudice and politics.

 

[AU9377 4,935]

38 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

It’s broader than simply a capitalism thing - every economic system - communists, socialists, and free enterprise based countries all do the same thing. Oil is energy, and energy is existential.

That is true.  We are "allied" with Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Egypt and a few other countries in the footprint primarily to maintain stability within the energy markets and to leverage their influence over the region and their conflict with Iran.  However, if there wasn't a drop of oil ever pumped from the Middle East again, we would still support Israel and support Israel's right to exist.  As you know, the British governed the region long before we got involved. 

[auburnatl1 4,935]

9 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

That may be true, but they simply have little choice when it comes to a response.  It is a false premise to claim that Hamas has no support amongst the Palestinians in Gaza.  They have widespread support.  Israel is justified in clearing every tunnel, bunker, and building of any sort of weapon capable of causing harm to Israel.  They are in the process of doing that now.  It is ugly and it is very regrettable that so many lives have been lost, but the alternative is to leave Gaza armed and capable of doing the same thing again in a few months.  How proportional was our response to 9/11?  Now imagine if 9/11 had been launched from Cuba or the Dominican Republic.  We would have left no stone in place until every person responsible had been killed or captured and a new government installed.  I can't act like Israel doesn't have that same right.

 

Israel isn't perfect by any measure, but Israel did not instigate this fight.  At the end of the day, we have to choose who our friends are and the choice is crystal clear when the choices are Israel or extremist terrorists.

Well said. In short - the situation sucks. Without a history diatribe, the British and French screwed up carving the middle Middle East into counties and left the Palestinians out (also the Kurds). From the Palestinians perspective the Israelis are invaders.  Good luck fixing that.

The bottom line is Hamas has to go, both sides need to start talking quick, and the UN will have to probably have to police the outcome and manage the crazy demographics. That includes stopping Israeli settler creep per any agreement.