DKW 86 7,440 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061113-121539-3317r.htm A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times has learned. The surprise encounter highlights China's continuing efforts to prepare for a future conflict with the U.S., despite Pentagon efforts to try to boost relations with Beijing's communist-ruled military. The submarine encounter with the USS Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships also is an embarrassment to the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Adm. William J. Fallon, who is engaged in an ambitious military exchange program with China aimed at improving relations between the two nations' militaries. Could someone be sabotaging this exchange program? Disclosure of the incident comes as Adm. Gary Roughead, commander of the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, is making his first visit to China. The four-star admiral was scheduled to meet senior Chinese military leaders during the weeklong visit, which began over the weekend. According to the defense officials, the Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine shadowed the Kitty Hawk undetected and surfaced within five miles of the carrier Oct. 26. The surfaced submarine was spotted by a routine surveillance flight by one of the carrier group's planes. The Kitty Hawk battle group includes an attack submarine and anti-submarine helicopters that are charged with protecting the warships from submarine attack. According to the officials, the submarine is equipped with Russian-made wake-homing torpedoes and anti-ship cruise missiles. The Kitty Hawk and several other warships were deployed in ocean waters near Okinawa at the time, as part of a routine fall deployment program. The officials said Chinese submarines rarely have operated in deep water far from Chinese shores or shadowed U.S. vessels. A Pacific Command spokesman declined to comment on the incident, saying details were classified. Pentagon spokesmen also declined to comment. The incident is a setback for the aggressive U.S.-China military exchange program being promoted by Adm. Fallon, who has made several visits to China in recent months in an attempt to develop closer ties. However, critics of the program in the Pentagon say China has not reciprocated and continues to deny U.S. military visitors access to key facilities, including a Beijing command center. More... http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/039.asp http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/song.htm The Song is basically updated Romeo class with somoe newer tech. The reality is that if the Kitty Hawk attack group had a fast attack sub in use, there was a 99% chance that they knew who, what, where, and how fast the sub was going 24/7. I am an old sub sailor. The idea that we were embarassed by this sub is just abit too far fetched for me. That US fast attack is 25+ years more advanced than the Chinese sub. Besides, the ship surfacing tells you right away that something was wrong. If you had a target under observation you would never surface and give away your position. Once the diesels fire up, the US fast attack would have known everything about the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger in Spain 0 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 You are right, David. A diesel electric submarine running on batteries is really quiet and, unless there is a surface ship actively pinging, there is a high probability it'll go undetected until it fires up the diesels and comes up to the surface to recharge its batteries. No submarine skipper in their right mind would willingly compromise his position by surfacing just to say, "gotcha." The Chinese aren't that stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,440 Posted November 14, 2006 Author Share Posted November 14, 2006 I was on one of the older fast attacks. We were better than the movies with passive sonar. Even with the diesel boats running on juice. The idea that we were "embarassed" sounds like someon justifying a new technology for the subs etc. I gurantee a new Seawolf Class SSN knows where that shallow water diesel boat was at. I call total BS on this article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger12 46 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 I don't know much about squidhead tech, but what I do know tells me what you guys have already said about this story...it is bs. I have seen some of the technology you swabbies and dolphin pin wearers use and I think I can safely say they knew exactly where this Chinese sub was the whole time. Heck, they probably played around with it and ran drills to go along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Liger 0 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 The idea that we were "embarassed" sounds like someone justifying a new technology for the subs etc. Bingo. My sub experience is limited to U-571, Hunt for Red October, The Enemy Below, Run Silent Run Deep, and crimson tide and I don't think there's any way in hell that one of our subs was caught unawares by some piece of crap Chinese train boiler with a diesel engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,440 Posted November 14, 2006 Author Share Posted November 14, 2006 The idea that we were "embarassed" sounds like someone justifying a new technology for the subs etc. Bingo. My sub experience is limited to U-571, Hunt for Red October, The Enemy Below, Run Silent Run Deep, and crimson tide and I don't think there's any way in hell that one of our subs was caught unawares by some piece of crap Chinese train boiler with a diesel engine. Well, on juice they are very hard to detect from the surface or air. But not to a submerged fast attack. The Song is good for only 22 knots submerged and then only for a few hours. They have to come to PD to recharge and run with the diesels. When the diesels kick on, even the surface and airborne ASW would detect it easily. Any US Fast attack can stay submerged and undetected for upto 60-90 days. BTW, even the "Crappy" Kitty could out run that glorified Romeo on steroids easily. The Song would be no match at all for any US fast attack. Romeos are shallow water boats. You stay deep and quiet and they will never know you are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURaptor 1,126 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Good thing we fired Rumsfeld. This is simply the latest of his failures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Liger 0 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 The idea that we were "embarassed" sounds like someone justifying a new technology for the subs etc. Bingo. My sub experience is limited to U-571, Hunt for Red October, The Enemy Below, Run Silent Run Deep, and crimson tide and I don't think there's any way in hell that one of our subs was caught unawares by some piece of crap Chinese train boiler with a diesel engine. Well, on juice they are very hard to detect from the surface or air. But not to a submerged fast attack. The Song is good for only 22 knots submerged and then only for a few hours. They have to come to PD to recharge and run with the diesels. When the diesels kick on, even the surface and airborne ASW would detect it easily. Any US Fast attack can stay submerged and undetected for upto 60-90 days. BTW, even the "Crappy" Kitty could out run that glorified Romeo on steroids easily. The Song would be no match at all for any US fast attack. Romeos are shallow water boats. You stay deep and quiet and they will never know you are there. It would seem like even when you're on batteries the noise coming off the screws would give you away. Or do they sound like normal, underwater anomalies or sea life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermike 3,053 Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 The idea that we were "embarassed" sounds like someone justifying a new technology for the subs etc. Bingo. My sub experience is limited to U-571, Hunt for Red October, The Enemy Below, Run Silent Run Deep, and crimson tide and I don't think there's any way in hell that one of our subs was caught unawares by some piece of crap Chinese train boiler with a diesel engine. Well, on juice they are very hard to detect from the surface or air. But not to a submerged fast attack. The Song is good for only 22 knots submerged and then only for a few hours. They have to come to PD to recharge and run with the diesels. When the diesels kick on, even the surface and airborne ASW would detect it easily. Any US Fast attack can stay submerged and undetected for upto 60-90 days. BTW, even the "Crappy" Kitty could out run that glorified Romeo on steroids easily. The Song would be no match at all for any US fast attack. Romeos are shallow water boats. You stay deep and quiet and they will never know you are there. It would seem like even when you're on batteries the noise coming off the screws would give you away. Or do they sound like normal, underwater anomalies or sea life? They coat the screws with the same material used on the stealth-bomber & fighter's. They have been doing studies with coating tanks, personnel carriers & jeeps with the stuff. Helmets & boots are next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,440 Posted November 14, 2006 Author Share Posted November 14, 2006 The screw baldes and their pitch and number of blades and speed. The bearing noise of the machinery carries for dozens of miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietfan 233 Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 No expertise here--just a question: What's their range on batteries? Just seems like we'd have pinpointed them the last time they went diesel to charge, and could they have managed to lose us in a short battery run after that? I wouldn't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,440 Posted November 15, 2006 Author Share Posted November 15, 2006 No expertise here--just a question: What's their range on batteries? Just seems like we'd have pinpointed them the last time they went diesel to charge, and could they have managed to lose us in a short battery run after that? I wouldn't think so. Maybe one to two days max. The US ships were in a operation. They basically would have to have been running almost in a circle for the Song to have been able to keep up. 22 knots is fullspeed submerged for a Song. At 22 knots in a sub you cant hear $h!t! you would have to stay lower than 12 amd more like 3-5 to able to use the passive sonar right. The Fast attack boat must race ahead, slow to a creep, and then listen. The Airborne ASW drops buoys that do not move, ahead and behind the carrier. They do a relatively good job unless there is a thermal layer masking the sub. But then, the sub has to stay at or near full speed to stay with the carrier. The carriers can do 30 or so. The Fast attack can do 35+. If I told you I would then have to kill you.... If you remember the torpedo attack in Red October, that torpedo was running about 55-60 knots and the Big D was acurately portrayed as just not quite out running it. They got the torpedo to follow them back toward the Soviet Alpha and it reassigned itself to the Alpha. Kaboom, water in the people tank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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