Is compassion returning to conservatism?

[DKW 86 7,440]

Yes guys, people make incredibly poor life choices all the time. I worked in a rescue mission. I saw it first hand. Believe me guys, "logic" is not a normitive value in the human condition.

if we could teach for that using drugs causes drug addictions no one would ever do drugs again. People make poor decisions all the time.

[Tiger Al 0]

Yes guys, people make incredibly poor life choices all the time. I worked in a rescue mission. I saw it first hand. Believe me guys, "logic" is not a normitive value in the human condition.

if we could teach for that using drugs causes drug addictions no one would ever do drugs again. People make poor decisions all the time.

Certainly people make poor choices. TT and I have provided examples of folks who made poor life choices, but, because of other factors, the result of those choices didn't force them below the poverty level or anywhere close to it. Poverty is a much more complex issue and can't be explained away by oversimplifications such as "Poor people are poor because they're lazy" or "People are poor because of poor life choices." Those statements simply relieve the speaker of feeling any responsibility for the betterment of his brother. Not very Christ-like.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Sounds awfully similar to the Biblical account of the blind man that Jesus healed where some of the Jews and religious authorities of the day asked "Was it this man or his parents who sinned that he finds himself in this condition?" Of course, the answer was neither.

[BamaGrad03 0]

So Titan, at what point is enough enough?

You can only take 100% of what I make.

For every ONE person ive ever met who was poor and using the social welfare programs to pull themselves up...ive met or seen 10 who are abusing it.

Those the bottom rung have a MULTITUDE of programs and opportunities to better their position. Why is it OK that you (government) already take HALF of every dime I make...now you want to take more...and GIVE more away?

Why not MAKE the people who abuse the system accountable? Why not have a "food stamp store" that only contains the things people need...and not expensive steaks? Why not MAKE the people use the programs available to create opportunity instead of affording themselves a lifestyle that I dont get to enjoy...even though i work my butt off?

I didnt have a silver spoon. I had a job since the day i was old enough to have one. My parents didnt put me through college...i got loans. JUST like everyone else can do.

I just wish the government would come up with a maxium number of how much THEY think they should take from my salary. And lets just go ahead and bump it to that number.

Should it be half? Should it be 75%? What if i make 10 million a year? Should it then be 90%?

Self Employed and small business owners usually make more money...but are taxed at a much higher rate. Sometimes DOUBLE what they would pay at a regular 9-5. So if I make 200k, but am taxed 55%, where is my motivation for making 200k? I could take an easier job and work a 9-5 and cruise making 125.

Its just not fair. People should be encouraged to pull their own weight. You explain to me situations where lack of social programs are leading to keeping people down...because I can sure take you down to ANY grocery store and show you putting a cart worth of food stamp bought groceries into a 40,000 dollar car.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

So Titan, at what point is enough enough?

You can only take 100% of what I make.

For every ONE person ive ever met who was poor and using the social welfare programs to pull themselves up...ive met or seen 10 who are abusing it.

Those the bottom rung have a MULTITUDE of programs and opportunities to better their position. Why is it OK that you (government) already take HALF of every dime I make...now you want to take more...and GIVE more away?

Why not MAKE the people who abuse the system accountable? Why not have a "food stamp store" that only contains the things people need...and not expensive steaks? Why not MAKE the people use the programs available to create opportunity instead of affording themselves a lifestyle that I dont get to enjoy...even though i work my butt off?

I didnt have a silver spoon. I had a job since the day i was old enough to have one. My parents didnt put me through college...i got loans. JUST like everyone else can do.

I just wish the government would come up with a maxium number of how much THEY think they should take from my salary. And lets just go ahead and bump it to that number.

Should it be half? Should it be 75%? What if i make 10 million a year? Should it then be 90%?

Self Employed and small business owners usually make more money...but are taxed at a much higher rate. Sometimes DOUBLE what they would pay at a regular 9-5. So if I make 200k, but am taxed 55%, where is my motivation for making 200k? I could take an easier job and work a 9-5 and cruise making 125.

Its just not fair. People should be encouraged to pull their own weight. You explain to me situations where lack of social programs are leading to keeping people down...because I can sure take you down to ANY grocery store and show you putting a cart worth of food stamp bought groceries into a 40,000 dollar car.

You have the same tired old rants regardless of what anyone posts. You whine about things that don't even exist. Why make up imaginary tax rates?

You equate being taxed with giving your money away to lazy poor people. Examine the federal budget sometime. You want a strong defense, you want weapon systems, you want wars, and you think all those things don't cost money? There is more fraud in Iraq with your tax dollars than in welfare to the poor. There is a ton of fraud on the part of well-to-do people, but you never get worked up over that. You're concerned about how some poor person spends their foodstamps. You're concered that they are not made to feel sufficiently ashamed about needing foodstamps. Check out our interest payments on the debt sometime. Your taxes go to pay for the credit for what we are charging to the next generation. Take some of your hard-earned money and buy a fricking clue.

[Tigermike 3,053]

Like Mike said, the "Idea" of theocracy is completely foreign to EVERY Conservative Christian I know.

Name one evangelical Christian who wants a theocracy. Just one.

Roy Moore, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and Pat Robertson for starters.

They do, provide links for that information.

[DKW 86 7,440]

My working with the Rescue mission absolutely altered my views. IMHE about 40-50% are there because of their own choices. They decided to start using drugs, to not have a good work ethic, to drink to excess, etc. The rest were abused, beaten, raped, the enablers, etc. They are the debris from other bad decisions.

Before you think I blame only the folks, I dont. Ex. We have allowed the school system to be run into the ground. We have failing schools all over the country. The worst are within view of the NEA headquarters in DC. They spend about $13k/yr/child and get failure. For that kind of money they could get a pretty good college degree. But no, they get worthless crap from a sorry NEA dominated school system that REFUSES to change and get into the 21st century.

No, the poor are not entirely to blame at all. We have engrained, intransigent, knuckleheaded fools ruining things for us all.

Another Ex., I had a Prof at AU that did his thesis on Food Stamps. Only .28 of every dollar given to the program actually got to the kids. The other .72 was wasted in program costs. Conservatives are infuriated that we cant do better. Liberals only want to throw more money at the problem and ignore any real discussions of fixing the problems. That is why fiscal Conservatives will never be able to vote for a Lib for any length of time. That is why I can EASILY see Pelosi being a one term Speaker of the House.God forbid that one member of the FGEU get laid off from his overpaid, underworked job.

[BamaGrad03 0]

My working with the Rescue mission absolutely altered my views. IMHE about 40-50% are there because of their own choices. They decided to start using drugs, to not have a good work ethic, to drink to excess, etc. The rest were abused, beaten, raped, the enablers, etc. They are the debris from other bad decisions.

Before you think I blame only the folks, I dont. Ex. We have allowed the school system to be run into the ground. We have failing schools all over the country. The worst are within view of the NEA headquarters in DC. They spend about $13k/yr/child and get failure. For that kind of money they could get a pretty good college degree. But no, they get worthless crap from a sorry NEA dominated school system that REFUSES to change and get into the 21st century.

No, the poor are not entirely to blame at all. We have engrained, intransigent, knuckleheaded fools ruining things for us all.

Another Ex., I had a Prof at AU that did his thesis on Food Stamps. Only .28 of every dollar given to the program actually got to the kids. The other .72 was wasted in program costs. Conservatives are infuriated that we cant do better. Liberals only want to throw more money at the problem and ignore any real discussions of fixing the problems. That is whyGod forbid that one member of the FGEU get laid off from his overpaid, underworked job.

David, thats really my point. I should have articulated it earlier. I DO think that I should pay for things like welfare programs, budget, roadways, wars, etc. But I think they already get enough of my money. I think if they took 100% of our checks, and still couldnt paythe bills, they would be FORCED to change the way they spend our money. But right now, instead of changing their ways, they can always just ask for more money.

Alabama is a PERFECT example. Bob Riley proposed a tax increase "for the children" as they always do. Alabama voted it down. So he went deeper and made goverment officials be accountable for their spending...and now we have this GIGANTIC surplus. Now, if we would have voted that tax increase in...the taxpayers would have just paid for an opportunity for gvmt officials to be foolish with our money...because they would have that cushion.

Increasing taxes only increases the margin of error for government spending.

[DKW 86 7,440]

BG, I was only adding to your thoughts, my friend. Ex. IF we fixed Food Stamps, we could cover twice the number of folks and still save money. The amount of waste in govt run programs is amazing, mystifying, and extreme. For anyone with a brain to sit there and say that status quo is good enough is just insane. You know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[Tiger Al 0]

Conservatives are infuriated that we cant do better. Liberals only want to throw more money at the problem and ignore any real discussions of fixing the problems.

You, sir, are either full of crap or you simply choose to create your own version of reality! Please tell us who enacted the last legislation that reformed the welfare system? Here's a clue: The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996.

Republicans have controlled the House during Bush's entire presidency and BOTH chambers of Congress since 2002. Please tell us what the "infuriated" conservatives have done to further reform welfare in that time? Here's another clue: ___________ .

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Conservatives are infuriated that we cant do better. Liberals only want to throw more money at the problem and ignore any real discussions of fixing the problems.

You, sir, are either full of crap or you simply choose to create your own version of reality! Please tell us who enacted the last legislation that reformed the welfare system? Here's a clue: The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996.

Republicans have controlled the House during Bush's entire presidency and BOTH chambers of Congress since 2002. Please tell us what the "infuriated" conservatives have done to further reform welfare in that time? Here's another clue: ___________ .

It is the very rare Republican that genuinely gives a rats ass about improving the lot of the poor. They hide behind the "waste, fraud and abuse" argument, even though they do nothing about the "waste, fraud and abuse" that the Republican stakeholders engage in Iraq, Afghanistan and New Orleans. That said, improving the lot of the poor isn't high on many elected Democrats agenda, either. Poor folks tend not to vote. Which makes Edwards "two Americas" strategy an interesting one.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

My working with the Rescue mission absolutely altered my views. IMHE about 40-50% are there because of their own choices. They decided to start using drugs, to not have a good work ethic, to drink to excess, etc. The rest were abused, beaten, raped, the enablers, etc. They are the debris from other bad decisions.

No doubt people in many walks of life make poor decisions that impact their life circumstances. Even among those 40-50%, however, I think it is hard to really know the circumstances of their life before you met.

Ultimately, people have to make good choices to make the most of their opportunities. But I've known many hard working people for whom their life will always be a struggle. I've known many "working poor" who work far harder and more diligently and make better and more responsible life choices than many folks I have known who were born on third base and have their dad as the coach.

[DKW 86 7,440]

OMG Al, 1996 was a presidential election year and Clinton got cornered into signing the thing by a Republican Congress. He spent all of 1997 promising to "Fix it."

We want all govt waste capped and shut down. We hate the waste in Iraq, but it is hard to be efficient in a war zone. Here in America, we can be as efficient as we want. Bush and Congress have been total failures at this and they ARE paying the price with their own base deserting them.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

So Titan, at what point is enough enough?

You can only take 100% of what I make.

Yet no one was proposing anything even remotely close to it.

For every ONE person ive ever met who was poor and using the social welfare programs to pull themselves up...ive met or seen 10 who are abusing it.

I'd venture to guess your anedotal evidence isn't indicative of reality, though I do believe we could do more to get rid of waste and abuse.

Those the bottom rung have a MULTITUDE of programs and opportunities to better their position. Why is it OK that you (government) already take HALF of every dime I make...now you want to take more...and GIVE more away?

Half? Really? You've already said you don't make $200k so we know you don't even hit the top marginal tax rate of 36%. But just for giggles, let's say your adjusted gross income was $200k exactly. That's after all deductions for business expenses, mortgage interest, and so on. So you actually made a good bit more than that. But for the purpose of illustration, here we go:

Up to $7550, it's a 10% rate so that's $755

From $7550 to $30,650, it's 15%, so that's $3465 in taxes

From $30,650 to $74,200, it's 25%, so that's $10,887

From $74,200 to $154,800 it's 28%, so that's $22,568

And from $154,800 to $336,550 it's 33% so that's $14,916 in taxes for someone with $200k in AGI

So for someone with an adjusted gross income of $200,000, they will have paid $52,591 in income tax, or roughly 26% total tax rate. And that's just on AGI. If all you did was the standard deduction, you'd have another $12,700 back in the mix which would make is 24.7%. In reality, especially since you're self employed, you would have a lot more deductions than that. Suffice it to say that after all things are considered, even with FICA, no one is taking half your money. And even the part that they are taking is not just being given away to people who didn't earn it.

For the 2004 fiscal year, the Federal budget broke down like this:

19.9% on defense

2.6 % on veteran's benefits

DEFENSE TOTAL: 22.5%

21.6% on Social Security

11.8% on Medicare

TOTAL: 33.4%

Note: Everyone who works pays into these through FICA taxes. These are not doled out based on income level. Even Bill Gates is eligible to draw on his SS and Medicare benefits once he's reached a certain age.

Medicaid 7.7%

Housing assistance 2%

Unemployment 1.8%

Food & nutrition assistance 1.8%

Earned Income Tax Credit 1.4%

Supplemental Security income 1.4%

Family support (including TANF) 1.1%

Other income security .9%

Agriculture .7%

Community development .7%

Commerce & housing credit .2%

TOTAL: 19.7%

These items are the only ones that could be even loosely interpreted as "giveaways" to the poor, in whole or in part.

Other notables: 7.7% of the entire budget goes just to paying interest on the federal debt, which we are increasing every year that we have budget deficits. As of 2004, that was $160 billion out the window.

All of that to say, I think you're exaggerating slightly with the notion not only of how much is taken from you, but on how much is just "given away."

Why not MAKE the people who abuse the system accountable? Why not have a "food stamp store" that only contains the things people need...and not expensive steaks? Why not MAKE the people use the programs available to create opportunity instead of affording themselves a lifestyle that I dont get to enjoy...even though i work my butt off?

I didn't know it had to be an either/or proposition. As the figures above testify, there are many other things, including two wars, that we have to pay for right now and we're operating at a deficit. No one's proposing to roll back all the tax cuts, just part of it for some people at the upper end of the income scale...at least until we're in the black again. It's one thing to propose tax cuts when we have surpluses and no major military operations. It's another to doggedly hold on to them when we have deficits and two wars to pay for.

We could implement some of the safeguards you mention, but I doubt you'll see the big impact in savings you think you will since those kinds of things don't take up a tremendous amount of the budget compared to other things.

I didnt have a silver spoon. I had a job since the day i was old enough to have one. My parents didnt put me through college...i got loans. JUST like everyone else can do.

So did I (have a job...my parents did pay for college fortunately). But I also realize that there are other factors involved. And you already said that your parents needed public assistance when you were a kid, so even you would admit that good people who want to work find themselves in tough circumstances even when they are trying to do the right things, much less if they make a couple of bad decisions.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

OMG Al, 1996 was a presidential election year and Clinton got cornered into signing the thing by a Republican Congress. He spent all of 1997 promising to "Fix it."

We want all govt waste capped and shut down. We hate the waste in Iraq, but it is hard to be efficient in a war zone. Here in America, we can be as efficient as we want. Bush and Congress have been total failures at this and they ARE paying the price with their own base deserting them.

"Hard to be efficient in a war zone..." Oh, well. "We hate it, but what can we do?" There was no desire on the part of the Republican Congress to engage in ANY meaningful oversight. Taking their paychecks for doing so little was fraudulent in and of itself.

Oversight is seen as "terrorism."

AP Enterprise: US government watchdogs under attack from bosses

The Associated Press

Published: December 28, 2006

WASHINGTON: The inspectors general entrusted to unearth waste, fraud and abuse in federal agencies are increasingly under attack, as top government officials they scrutinize try to erode the watchdogs' independence and authority.

During 2006, several inspectors general felt the wrath of government bosses or their supporters in the U.S. Congress after investigations cited agencies for poor performance, excessive spending or wasted money.

For instance:

_The top official of the government's property and supply agency compared its inspector general to a terrorist, hoping to chill audits of General Services Administration regional offices and private businesses.

_Directors of the government's legal aid program discussed firing their inspector general, who investigated how top officials lavishly spent tax dollars for limousine services, ritzy hotels and $14 (€10.63) "Death by Chocolate" desserts.

_Administration-friendly Republicans in Congress tried to do away with the special inspector general for Iraq, who repeatedly exposed examples of administration waste that cost billions of dollars. Among the contractors criticized was Halliburton Corp., once headed by Vice President Dick Cheney.

_The Pentagon has been making its inspector general use lawyers picked by the defense secretary instead of independently hired attorneys.

"It's hard to believe that the government is serious about policing itself when it's whacking the people who are actually minding the store," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project On Government Oversight, a nonpartisan group that tracks government waste and fraud. "These people are our security officers who help guard tens of billions of dollars. It's ridiculous to prevent them from doing their jobs."

Sean Kevelighan, spokesman for the White House Office of Management and Budget, said the Bush administration counts on "independent and unbiased views" of the watchdogs and is willing to intervene in any disputes.

"If and when there are times where intervention is necessary, the administration will do so to ensure all the parties are educated about one another's roles and the importance of maintaining a productive relationship — and a healthy respect for the responsibilities of all involved," he added.

When GSA Inspector General Brian Miller's team intensively audited the agency's regional offices, he ran into strong resistance from agency administrator Lurita Doan.

A business owner, Doan suggested some auditing functions be taken away from the watchdog and given to small businesses.

"There are two kinds of terrorism in the U.S.: the external kind and internally, the IGs have terrorized the regional administrators," she told Miller and his staff on Aug. 18.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/29/..._Under_Fire.php

[Tiger Al 0]

OMG Al, 1996 was a presidential election year and Clinton got cornered into signing the thing by a Republican Congress. He spent all of 1997 promising to "Fix it."

Even more reason for him NOT to do what he said he'd do...and DID. So, as you pointed out, the last time welfare was reformed, it was by the hand of Democratic President Bill Clinton. Very good. You deserve a gold star.

What is your excuse for all of these so-called "infuriated" conservatives who have had total budgetary power since Bush was inaugurated and done nothing except b!tch and kvetch along with you, BG and the like, in their alternate reality?

[Tiger Al 0]

OMG Al, 1996 was a presidential election year and Clinton got cornered into signing the thing by a Republican Congress. He spent all of 1997 promising to "Fix it."

We want all govt waste capped and shut down. We hate the waste in Iraq, but it is hard to be efficient in a war zone. Here in America, we can be as efficient as we want. Bush and Congress have been total failures at this and they ARE paying the price with their own base deserting them.

"Hard to be efficient in a war zone..." Oh, well. "We hate it, but what can we do?" There was no desire on the part of the Republican Congress to engage in ANY meaningful oversight. Taking their paychecks for doing so little was fraudulent in and of itself.

Oversight is seen as "terrorism."

AP Enterprise: US government watchdogs under attack from bosses

The Associated Press

Published: December 28, 2006

WASHINGTON: The inspectors general entrusted to unearth waste, fraud and abuse in federal agencies are increasingly under attack, as top government officials they scrutinize try to erode the watchdogs' independence and authority.

During 2006, several inspectors general felt the wrath of government bosses or their supporters in the U.S. Congress after investigations cited agencies for poor performance, excessive spending or wasted money.

For instance:

_The top official of the government's property and supply agency compared its inspector general to a terrorist, hoping to chill audits of General Services Administration regional offices and private businesses.

_Directors of the government's legal aid program discussed firing their inspector general, who investigated how top officials lavishly spent tax dollars for limousine services, ritzy hotels and $14 (€10.63) "Death by Chocolate" desserts.

_Administration-friendly Republicans in Congress tried to do away with the special inspector general for Iraq, who repeatedly exposed examples of administration waste that cost billions of dollars. Among the contractors criticized was Halliburton Corp., once headed by Vice President Dick Cheney.

_The Pentagon has been making its inspector general use lawyers picked by the defense secretary instead of independently hired attorneys.

"It's hard to believe that the government is serious about policing itself when it's whacking the people who are actually minding the store," said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project On Government Oversight, a nonpartisan group that tracks government waste and fraud. "These people are our security officers who help guard tens of billions of dollars. It's ridiculous to prevent them from doing their jobs."

Sean Kevelighan, spokesman for the White House Office of Management and Budget, said the Bush administration counts on "independent and unbiased views" of the watchdogs and is willing to intervene in any disputes.

"If and when there are times where intervention is necessary, the administration will do so to ensure all the parties are educated about one another's roles and the importance of maintaining a productive relationship — and a healthy respect for the responsibilities of all involved," he added.

When GSA Inspector General Brian Miller's team intensively audited the agency's regional offices, he ran into strong resistance from agency administrator Lurita Doan.

A business owner, Doan suggested some auditing functions be taken away from the watchdog and given to small businesses.

"There are two kinds of terrorism in the U.S.: the external kind and internally, the IGs have terrorized the regional administrators," she told Miller and his staff on Aug. 18.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/29/..._Under_Fire.php

The solution to all of this in two words: Henry Waxman.

[DKW 86 7,440]

Please guys, we fiscal Conservatives abandoned the Spend-a-lots. If I want to vote for mindless spending, I can vote Democrat any day of the week.

Henry Waxman? :lmao:

Even more reason for him NOT to do what he said he'd do...and DID. So, as you pointed out, the last time welfare was reformed, it was by the hand of Democratic President Bill Clinton.

Only with a gun at his head... :lmao:

[DKW 86 7,440]

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/

Titan, the use of ONLY the FEDERAL income tax was not appropriate.You should use TOTAL Taxes paid to give a real example.

Days to work graph...

The real total tax effect is much higher.

Country Day of Year % Burden Date of Year Updated Source Reference

Australia 122 33% 25 April 2006 Centre for Independent Studies [6]

Brazil 145 40% 25 May 2006 Instituto Brasileiro de Planejamento Tributario [7]

Canada 170 47% 19 June 2006 Fraser Institute [8]

Croatia 166 45% 15 June 2006 The Adriatic Institute for Public Policy [9]

Czech Republic 158 43% 7 June 2001 Liberalni Institut [10]

Germany ? ?% 5 July 2006 Steuerzahler Bund [11]

India 74 20% 14 March 2000 Centre for Civil Society [12]

Israel ? ?% 26 July 2006 Jerusalem Institute for Market Studies [13]

Lithuania 125 34% 5 May 2005 Lithuanian Free Market Institute [14]

Poland ? ?% 22 June 2005 Centrum im. Adama Smitha [15]

Slovakia 169 46% 18 June 2002 Association of Slovak Taxpayers ?

South Africa 112 31% 22 April 2002 Free Market Foundation [16]

United Kingdom 154 42% 3 June 2006 Adam Smith Institute [17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Titan was replying to BG's whine about federal income tax being used for welfare programs. The numbers you cite are not accurate because state and local taxes vary so widely.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/

Titan, the use of ONLY the FEDERAL income tax was not appropriate.You should use TOTAL Taxes paid to give a real example.

Days to work graph...

The real total tax effect is much higher.

Country Day of Year % Burden Date of Year Updated Source Reference

Australia 122 33% 25 April 2006 Centre for Independent Studies [6]

Brazil 145 40% 25 May 2006 Instituto Brasileiro de Planejamento Tributario [7]

Canada 170 47% 19 June 2006 Fraser Institute [8]

Croatia 166 45% 15 June 2006 The Adriatic Institute for Public Policy [9]

Czech Republic 158 43% 7 June 2001 Liberalni Institut [10]

Germany ? ?% 5 July 2006 Steuerzahler Bund [11]

India 74 20% 14 March 2000 Centre for Civil Society [12]

Israel ? ?% 26 July 2006 Jerusalem Institute for Market Studies [13]

Lithuania 125 34% 5 May 2005 Lithuanian Free Market Institute [14]

Poland ? ?% 22 June 2005 Centrum im. Adama Smitha [15]

Slovakia 169 46% 18 June 2002 Association of Slovak Taxpayers ?

South Africa 112 31% 22 April 2002 Free Market Foundation [16]

United Kingdom 154 42% 3 June 2006 Adam Smith Institute [17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

[Tiger Al 0]

Please guys, we fiscal Conservatives abandoned the Spend-a-lots. If I want to vote for mindless spending, I can vote Democrat any day of the week.

Henry Waxman? :lmao:

Even more reason for him NOT to do what he said he'd do...and DID. So, as you pointed out, the last time welfare was reformed, it was by the hand of Democratic President Bill Clinton.

Only with a gun at his head... :lmao:

OK, great. So the last welfare reform was done by Clinton. In the last six years, what social issues have these "infuriated" conservatives focused their attention on? Flag burning, Terri Schiavo, gay marriage and so on...

[Tiger Al 0]

Titan was replying to BG's whine about federal income tax being used for welfare programs. The numbers you cite are not accurate because state and local taxes vary so widely.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/

Titan, the use of ONLY the FEDERAL income tax was not appropriate.You should use TOTAL Taxes paid to give a real example.

Days to work graph...

The real total tax effect is much higher.

Country Day of Year % Burden Date of Year Updated Source Reference

Australia 122 33% 25 April 2006 Centre for Independent Studies [6]

Brazil 145 40% 25 May 2006 Instituto Brasileiro de Planejamento Tributario [7]

Canada 170 47% 19 June 2006 Fraser Institute [8]

Croatia 166 45% 15 June 2006 The Adriatic Institute for Public Policy [9]

Czech Republic 158 43% 7 June 2001 Liberalni Institut [10]

Germany ? ?% 5 July 2006 Steuerzahler Bund [11]

India 74 20% 14 March 2000 Centre for Civil Society [12]

Israel ? ?% 26 July 2006 Jerusalem Institute for Market Studies [13]

Lithuania 125 34% 5 May 2005 Lithuanian Free Market Institute [14]

Poland ? ?% 22 June 2005 Centrum im. Adama Smitha [15]

Slovakia 169 46% 18 June 2002 Association of Slovak Taxpayers ?

South Africa 112 31% 22 April 2002 Free Market Foundation [16]

United Kingdom 154 42% 3 June 2006 Adam Smith Institute [17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

Furthermore, the category of "Social Insurance" would probably include SSI taxes, which is not welfare.

[TexasTiger 13,017]

Please guys, we fiscal Conservatives abandoned the Spend-a-lots. If I want to vote for mindless spending, I can vote Democrat any day of the week.

Henry Waxman? :lmao:

Even more reason for him NOT to do what he said he'd do...and DID. So, as you pointed out, the last time welfare was reformed, it was by the hand of Democratic President Bill Clinton.

Only with a gun at his head... :lmao:

Wrong again. Clinton ran in 1992 with a pledge to "end welfare as we know it" and set it as a priority in his first state of the union address. He signed the new law during his first term which looked very much like what he campaigned on. He worked with a Republican congress and had to compromise on a few aspects which he later wanted to "fix", but he was glad to have this accomplished in his first term.

ONE OF THE loudest--and most bipartisan--rounds of applause during Bill Clinton's 1993 State of the Union address came when he reiterated his promise to "end welfare as we know it." During the campaign, Clinton repeatedly said that welfare benefits should be time-limited, and that, after two years of job training and education, welfare recipients who can work should be required to do so. "We have to end welfare as a way of life," he told Congress and the nation, "and make it a path to independence and dignity."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...111/ai_14152774

[Tiger Al 0]

Please guys, we fiscal Conservatives abandoned the Spend-a-lots. If I want to vote for mindless spending, I can vote Democrat any day of the week.

Henry Waxman? :lmao:

Even more reason for him NOT to do what he said he'd do...and DID. So, as you pointed out, the last time welfare was reformed, it was by the hand of Democratic President Bill Clinton.

Only with a gun at his head... :lmao:

Wrong again. Clinton ran in 1992 with a pledge to "end welfare as we know it" and set it as a priority in his first state of the union address. He signed the new law during his first term which looked very much like what he campaigned on. He worked with a Republican congress and had to compromise on a few aspects which he later wanted to "fix", but he was glad to have this accomplished in his first term.

ONE OF THE loudest--and most bipartisan--rounds of applause during Bill Clinton's 1993 State of the Union address came when he reiterated his promise to "end welfare as we know it." During the campaign, Clinton repeatedly said that welfare benefits should be time-limited, and that, after two years of job training and education, welfare recipients who can work should be required to do so. "We have to end welfare as a way of life," he told Congress and the nation, "and make it a path to independence and dignity."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...111/ai_14152774

David knows all of this full-well. The facts just don't coincide with the alternate reality he's invented for himself. Another inconvenient truth.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Titan, your numbers would be GREAT if I only paid federal income tax.

What about my sales tax? Gas Tax? Liquor Tax?

How about when a rent a car? Or a Hotel Room? or when I pay a toll?

We are taxed to death. And the knee jerk reaction is to raise taxes when we need more money. All Im saying is...lets exhaust all possible accountability measures first.