Just thought we had problems...

[AU! 0]

Wow, can you honestly say that you would fire Tuberville?

It's things like that that make us realize that bammars are delusional.

Longest Leash, you make me laugh. I suppose our leash is long when you look at the tiny strings bama keeps their coaches on. Whatever happened to letting a guy just do his job?

[BamaGrad03 0]

Wow, can you honestly say that you would fire Tuberville?

It's things like that that make us realize that bammars are delusional.

Longest Leash, you make me laugh. I suppose our leash is long when you look at the tiny strings bama keeps their coaches on. Whatever happened to letting a guy just do his job?

No I don't think you should fire Tuberville. But everyone here is suggesting that we should be UPSET with our coach because he's 4-2 through six games. Which tells me that you guys have the longest leash in the world since you weren't upset with CTT going 5-6 his first season.

[runswithscissors 33]

Wow, can you honestly say that you would fire Tuberville?

no, and i think that was his point....nobody should think you guys would want to fire him (BOT might be another story though). so if we don't think you would have a reason to want him fired after 9 seasons with only 1 SECC, then why would we be so upset with being 4-2 right now with a coach in his first year here?

Longest Leash, you make me laugh. I suppose our leash is long when you look at the tiny strings bama keeps their coaches on. Whatever happened to letting a guy just do his job?

thats also the point we are trying to make. CircleDrill acts as if all Alabama fans should be up in arms and ready to have him fired or something. we're trying to tell him that we did not expect to have a good season this year and we're wanting to let him do his job. for some reason, thats just absolutely unreasonable?

[WAR EAGLE!!! 0]

I have no idea what this thread is about...I thought it was about Arkansas and then something went wrong...

However, I will say this about the discussion now at hand. Alabama has looked bad at some points this season. Alabama has looked good at some points in the season. Auburn has looked bad at some points in te season. Auburn has looked good at some points in the season. The difference to me between the 2 teams is Auburn seems to be getting better as the season progresses while Alabama seems to have been hyped pre-season and playing on pre-season emotion to start the season strong. I think now, and as the season progresses, it will be an indicator for both schools the talent level at each one. Auburn has some very young and talneted players while Alabama's players, IMO, are less talented but playing with emotion. Auburn should get stronger as the year progresses but it is going to be hard for Alabama to maintain the emotion that it played with during the Arkasas game all year.

I will say this about recruiting. Saban has done a hell of a job so far in recruting. It remains to be seen if it wil keep up over the next couple of years after "saban-mania" has worn down a bit. But, for the Alabama fans that think he is going to dominate Auburn...on the field OR in recruiting...is wrong. Auburn is going to be stacked the next couple of years. We are playing a TON of freshman right now so any top 3 recruiting class from Alabama is going to be behind the 8-ball with experience. It may hurt us in 2010 or 2011...but there will be new recruits with a lot of new talent...so I am the least bit worried!

[whiteplainstiger 0]

don't worry y'all will have a chance, when the false prophet falls off his pedestal

You mean the guy with 2 SEC Championship rings and 1 National Title...in 5 years?

This is Saban's 11 th year as a head coach. He was at Michigan State for 5 years, LSU for 5 years, and Bammer for 1 year. During his previous 10 years as a head coach, Saban has won 2 conference championships. Tuberville has finished at least one season undefeated. Saban has never finished any season undefeated. The fact that Saban has 1 national championship and Tuberville has 0 national championship is the result of luck more than anything else. Here are some more facts about Saban's record as a head coach:

1. He has lost at least 5 games in 5 out of the 10 seasons he has been a head coach.

2. He has lost at least 4 games in 6 out of the 10 seasons he has been a head coach.

3. He has lost at least 3 games in 8 out of the 10 seasons he has been a head coach.

4. He has lost at least 2 games in 9 out of the 10 seasons he has been a head coach.

5. He has lost at least 1 game in all 10 seasons he has been a head coach.

That is not a very good record for a coach who is making 4 million dollars a year.

[BamaGrad03 0]

He has 3 Conference championships. He won 9 games at toledo and won the MAC. In his first year.

And if you want to include ENTIRE coaching careers, let's look at CTT's 4 years at Ole Miss: 26-21 lost 4 games EVERY year. Lost 5 games 3 of 4 seasons. Has ONE conference championship in 13 years as a head coach. Zero national championships.

[whiteplainstiger 0]

If you include his one year at Toledo and this year at Bammer, Saban has been a head coach for 12 years. He has lost at least two games in 11 out of those 12 years. He lost at least one game in all 12 of those years. Saban lost at least 3 games in 4 out of the 5 seasons he was at LSU. He lost at least 1 game all 5 seasons he was at LSU. Saban needed an incredible amount of luck to win a national championship at LSU. Do you think he will get that lucky at Bammer?

[BamaGrad03 0]

If you include his one year at Toledo and this year at Bammer, Saban has been a head coach for 12 years. He has lost at least two games in 11 out of those 12 years. He lost at least one game in all 12 of those years. Saban lost at least 3 games in 4 out of the 5 seasons he was at LSU. He lost at least 1 game all 5 seasons he was at LSU. Saban needed an incredible amount of luck to win a national championship at LSU. Do you think he will get that lucky at Bammer?

CTT has lost 3 games in 12 of 14 seasons. Lost at least 4 games his first 5 years at Auburn. You REALLY don't want to compare CTT's first 5 years at Auburn with Saban's 5 years at LSU.

[ssgaufan 0]

Recruiting or no recruiting, Nick Saban is 2-3 against Tommy Tuberville. I don't care how many stickers Rivals.com gives high school athletes, Nick Saban can not claim a winning record against Auburn's head coach.

What is CTT's record against Mike Dubose? Hey, since he's 4-4 against Houston Nutt, I guess it's safe to assume that Houston is at LEAST as good of a coach as CTT.

And yes, we lost to Mississippi State and beat K State. Kansas State beat Texas and lost to a good Kansas team. Bama only beat Vandy by 14 points. We were up 35-0 at one point. How does that make you feel? Were you distraught when the Bryant-Denny announcer told that score? 35-7 with 7 points coming against our 3rd string. Some argue if the refs hadn't blown a few early calls, Vandy might have beaten you. But yeah, we ALMOST lost to K State.

K State lost to a Kansas team who you claim is "good"...yet their other 4 wins were: Central Michigan, SE Louisiana, Toledo, and Florida International.

Bama only beat Vandy by 14 points. So. What does that mean? It was the 2nd game of the season and we ran an incredibly vanilla offensive package to not show anything for the next week. The 7 points may have come against your 3rd string, but the INT came from your starter.

People can argue what they want about "blown calls." But the bottom line is, we won by 2 TDs. We were up 24-3 and they got a late TD on our bench players. Kind of like yours. AU fans ALWAYS say that Bama "should have lost.". Even in a game like this, where we won by 2 TDs and never trailed. Nice try though. I knew someone was going to bring up a point comparison from the Vandy game.

And Bama's four wins are; WESTERN CAROLINA, VANDY, ARKANSAS, AND HOUSTON. WOW, TALK ABOUT TOUGH.

[BamaGrad03 0]

And Bama's four wins are; WESTERN CAROLINA, VANDY, ARKANSAS, AND HOUSTON. WOW, TALK ABOUT TOUGH.

Kansas SOS - 100

Alabama SOS - 25

Seriously though, nice try.

[jumbo 0]

How many undefeated seasons does Nick Saban have?

Since BS wont answer I will, the answer is 0

Ok. How many National Championships does CTT have? How long did it take him to get that undefeated season? Saban did his damage in 5 years. 2 SEC Titles and 1 National Title in 5 years.

And you guys still say hes a crappy coach. You've given CTT the longest leash in the world, for one SEC title in 9 seasons. Yet you expect us to be furious with Saban 6 games in when we are 4-2.

Has Nick Saban ever went undefeated??? If Shula was still the coach, bammer would be 6-0

[AURainman 6]

How did this become a Saban/Tuberville pi**ing match?

Saban is a good coach. Great? Nah. Good.

Tuberville is a good coach. Great? Nah. Good.

Both programs are happy with who they've got, for now. Tuberville doesn't have to prove a thing. He's proven.

Saban should have to prove he is worth the $4mill. Contrary to most opinions on this board, he won't be judged until 3 seasons-in. All comparisons at this point are simply wasted keystrokes.

It is funny how quickly BG, RTRev, etc. pulled out their "Bammer Argument Playbooks." Funny.

[BamaGrad03 0]

If Shula was still the coach, bammer would be 6-0

Thanks, I needed some comic relief today.

Contrary to most opinions on this board, he won't be judged until 3 seasons-in

And that is exactly how it should be. Not 6 games in.

[jumbo 0]

Thanks, I needed some comic relief today.

your welcome but its true! Jpw was more effective in Shular's offense

Has Saban ever been undefeated??

[mcgufcm 4,107]

bg, i'm a little worried about you. for the most part, you're usually fairly objective. you were one of the few bama fans i "know" (since we've never actually met) that didn't go overboard on the kool-aid (even after the hot start), but man, i'm worried about you. you're getting more and more and more invested in this season every time i read your posts. you're making excuses for stuff that doesn't need to be excused... almost like you expect something great just around the corner. i'm worried that when we beat you boys for the 6th straight year, when nick saban doesn't make a bit of difference, you're gonna be hella disappointed.

so here are some things you can't do anything about no matter how hard you look for stats and stuff otherwise:

1) tubby is just as good a coach as nick saban. i don't care if you convince yourself that it's all about the staff. i don't care how you convince yourself of that; you need to get it. tubby and auburn aren't going to disappear because of saban.

the job tubbs did was almost as impressive as the incredible foundation he's laid at auburn... it's MORE impressive than what saban did at michigan state. the guy won 10 games (once) in the big 10. big damn deal. ole miss had 60 scholarship players tubby's third year. 60. bama fans complain about their sanctions all the time, but ole miss got hit a lot harder than you did AND tubby ran players off (took 6 scholarships away his first year). that record and the number of bowls and the shape he left that program in is the sign of a great, great coaching job like it or not.

you may not like it, but tubby's resume is every bit as good as saban's. i'm not saying tubby is just head and shoulders above him, but i am saying he's not an inch behind.

2) tubby's a great recruiter. you can deny that all you want. you can point to stars and everything else you want. you point to the talent at lsu (a monkey could recruit there by the way... heck dinardo had GREAT talent). it's not gonna change the fact that tubby goes out, gets the guys he wants, and wins.

when we offer a guy early, i don't even bother looking at stars or other offers. why? courtney taylor, dontarrious thomas, karlos dansby, jason bosley, sen'derrick marks, zac etheridge, will herring, mike blanc, and chris evans say tubby is right. none of those guys was even CLOSE to a "big time" recruit, but they're all FANTASTIC football players. heck that's not even close to a comprehensive list. doesn't even touch guys like ben grubbs or jay ratliff collecting paychecks in the nfl after being sidenote recruits out of high school.

tubby's going to go out, evaluate players, and get a good percentage of the ones he wants. some years that will look like last year (great recruiting rankings); some it will look like this year (okay rankings). but it doesn't make the players we sign any better or worse. tubby's a great recruiter.

3) you're playing catch up. like it or not, you have a staff that has a lot to learn. you have players that don't know how to win consistently. and you don't have the talent to win the sec. and frankly you aren't that close on the last point. you're two good recruiting classes away from getting on that plane.

stay even. don't invest too much into this one year, man. if you do, it's going to hurt a lot worse when it doesn't pan out the way you want. i said before the year and i'll say again: you play 6 teams with better players. you're 1-2 against them thus far. you almost gave a game away last weekend, and like i said before the year, msu is good enough to beat you in starkville if the team is remotely careless. i still think you're going 7-5, but that's nothing to scoff at as long as the team improves. don't lose sight of that.

[mcgufcm 4,107]

ps. absolutely no way bama is 6-0 under any coach. any coach. they fought like dogs to get by a more talented arkansas team. they scratched back into a game against a more talented uga. they got shown up by big plays against fsu. no coach could've overcome all three of those with bama's roster.

[BamaGrad03 0]

mcgufcm,

Actually I think we see this team in a pretty similar light. I said at the beginning of the year 8-4 and I stand by that. If we go 9-3 or 7-5...neither will bring me to the floor or the ceiling.

I fully expected us to lose to AU coming into the year, as well as LSU. I think AU has too much speed on D, and I think LSU will beat us by 103 points for a myriad of reasons. But I think we COULD win the AU game. It would require a game out of this team that we have yet to see so far this season.

That being said, my frustrations here lie with so many who are saying us Bama fans SHOULD be mad because Saban isn't delivering. Saying that he's falling short because we are 4-2. That, to me, is asinine. I hate the double standard. You can rake us over the coals for not giving Shula 7,8,9 years because we were too "impatient"...and now that we aren't jumping ship due to our 4-2 record...we are being unreasonable.

I don't get it. Much of my fervent defense (and pointing out CTT's flaws) has nothing to do with me thinking he's [CTT] a crappy coach. I think he's a decent coach. I think he's an EXCEPTIONAL big game coach. But I think you all would be quite remiss to think that you don't have your own problems...or that the Iron Bowl is "in the bag"

[AuburnChopper1 0]

I've noticed this trend of comparing AU to UA and vice versa, no matter what the circumstance, or subject. Is this really the way to answer questions, or stoke debate? From either side?

Just a note to consider before taking this approach. We don't run the same offense, defense. We don't have the same players. Our University doesn't reside in Tuscaloosa, and UA doesn't reside in Auburn, meaning different infrastructure and individuals in charge. Different personalities completely. Comparing anything Auburn to Alabama is like comparing...well...an elephant to a tiger. It's just not the same.

Really, if the question is clearly asked of an Alabama fan, by an Auburn fan what they think Saban has done that would be any different than Shula with the same players and schedule, how does a comparison to Tommy Tuberville's situation in '98 answer that? Just asking.

BG, I'm not picking on you, but I think you're just as guilty when it comes to everything you've complained about and gotten frustrated about when it comes to debating people on here. Now, you should know by now that there are going to be Auburn fans that are going to be heavily biased in favor of Auburn, so getting frustrated is something you're doing to yourself. This just isn't going to change, even by post # 20K.

So, with that said...

I think Coach Nick Saban, and Tommy Tuberville are two different coaches running different teams and different programs. One works one way, the other, another. Tommy Tuberville took over a rotten core of athletes mid-season. Saban is taking over a team with significant talent (that's according to most bama fans). The question is reasonable I think. Auburn was coming out of probation during the years Tuberville took over, in about the same amount of time Alabama's "issues" were impossed and passed now. Saban, and thus Alabama doesn't have that excuse anymore in my opinion.

I agree with those that said, that Saban hasn't exeeded anyone's expectations. He hasn't done horribly, but ultimately nothing special either.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Yeah, AC like I said before, I'm not trying to flame down these threads. I'm just trying to illustrate to some that taking over a new team is tough.

Just like CTT didn't suck when he went 5-6 to start out...there's a lot to overcome when you are trying to get your system in with your own players.

[TitanTiger 20,511]

Yeah, AC like I said before, I'm not trying to flame down these threads. I'm just trying to illustrate to some that taking over a new team is tough.

Just like CTT didn't suck when he went 5-6 to start out...there's a lot to overcome when you are trying to get your system in with your own players.

Can you name any position where Auburn's 1999 team had a more talented player in a specific position than his counterpart on this year's Bama squad? Scanning the rosters the only ones you could argue for would be:

Ronnie Daniels WR over D.J. Hall

Damon Duval over Lee Tiffin (though Duval wasn't the solid kicker he later became)

Leonardo Carson over whoever plays DT for Bama

That's about it. Leard was still a year away from becoming a good QB and he split time with Jeff Klein due to injury. Terry Grant/Glen Coffee vs Rusty Williams/Clifton Robinson/Markeith Cooper? Please.

CTT's problems in '99 weren't about needing his own players. It was about needing GOOD players, period. Some of these guys became good later, but in 1999 it was a rag-tag bunch at best.

[AuburnChopper1 0]

Rusty Williams/Clifton Robinson/Markeith Cooper

My God, talk about dogs chasing their own tails. We were AWFUL!

I agree with your point BG, and I'm not accusing you of flaming. This isn't a pissing match in the making.

Do you agree though, that comparing Tommy Tuberville in '99 coming from Ole Miss, under the circumstances and talent he walked into, might be a "smidge" different than the resources handed to an ex' NC coach and NFL coach, by a school smitten with the idea of an unprecedented turn-around?

I agree though...."starting over" is tough, whatever your perception. I just hope that if this year is deemed another "starting over" year from the Tide faithful, that this is the last one. It's been like playing golf with your little brother, having him hit a shot in the water off the tee, only to see him drop a "mulligan" and then claim the score, just because it might be lower than yours.

[AUJarhead 70]

Leard was still a year away from becoming a good QB and he split time with Jeff Klein due to injury.

And wasn't Gross the starter throughout spring practice? And in August as well?

[BamaGrad03 0]

Yeah, AC like I said before, I'm not trying to flame down these threads. I'm just trying to illustrate to some that taking over a new team is tough.

Just like CTT didn't suck when he went 5-6 to start out...there's a lot to overcome when you are trying to get your system in with your own players.

Can you name any position where Auburn's 1999 team had a more talented player in a specific position than his counterpart on this year's Bama squad? Scanning the rosters the only ones you could argue for would be:

Ronnie Daniels WR over D.J. Hall

Damon Duval over Lee Tiffin (though Duval wasn't the solid kicker he later became)

Leonardo Carson over whoever plays DT for Bama

That's about it. Leard was still a year away from becoming a good QB and he split time with Jeff Klein due to injury. Terry Grant/Glen Coffee vs Rusty Williams/Clifton Robinson/Markeith Cooper? Please.

CTT's problems in '99 weren't about needing his own players. It was about needing GOOD players, period. Some of these guys became good later, but in 1999 it was a rag-tag bunch at best.

And this team would beat CTT's first team. And not because of a coaching disparity, but a talent disparity. We have talent in spots, but our depth problem is killing us in the 4th quarter right now.

If our offense doesn't stay on the field ALL day long, our defense wears out. We have very very shallow rotations. Some of those guys play every single snap.

So our first string talent can only take us so far. And they are why we probably wont get blown out this year (save the LSU game for other reasons). CTT's teams lost by a wide margin because of the lack of talent. Saban's got the talent to keep the margin close, but I'm not sure he has the talent yet to pull of many big ones.

[AuburnChopper1 0]

Yeah, AC like I said before, I'm not trying to flame down these threads. I'm just trying to illustrate to some that taking over a new team is tough.

Just like CTT didn't suck when he went 5-6 to start out...there's a lot to overcome when you are trying to get your system in with your own players.

Can you name any position where Auburn's 1999 team had a more talented player in a specific position than his counterpart on this year's Bama squad? Scanning the rosters the only ones you could argue for would be:

Ronnie Daniels WR over D.J. Hall

Damon Duval over Lee Tiffin (though Duval wasn't the solid kicker he later became)

Leonardo Carson over whoever plays DT for Bama

That's about it. Leard was still a year away from becoming a good QB and he split time with Jeff Klein due to injury. Terry Grant/Glen Coffee vs Rusty Williams/Clifton Robinson/Markeith Cooper? Please.

CTT's problems in '99 weren't about needing his own players. It was about needing GOOD players, period. Some of these guys became good later, but in 1999 it was a rag-tag bunch at best.

And this team would beat CTT's first team. And not because of a coaching disparity, but a talent disparity. We have talent in spots, but our depth problem is killing us in the 4th quarter right now.

If our offense doesn't stay on the field ALL day long, our defense wears out. We have very very shallow rotations. Some of those guys play every single snap.

So our first string talent can only take us so far. And they are why we probably wont get blown out this year (save the LSU game for other reasons). CTT's teams lost by a wide margin because of the lack of talent. Saban's got the talent to keep the margin close, but I'm not sure he has the talent yet to pull of many big ones.

Would you consider yourself a young, or older team? The reason I'm asking, it makes all the difference between this "shallow rotation" being a today problem, and being a few years down the road thing.

I think this points to some of the poor "needs" recruiting in the previous regime (Shula). Nick's got his hands full. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure he has more than 2 or 3 years to plant Bama in the SEC Championship game. I'm not suggesting he'd get fired, I think that Nick would have quite the task dealing with the expectations of the media and fanbase at that point. It'll be interesting.

[BamaGrad03 0]

Would you consider yourself a young, or older team? The reason I'm asking, it makes all the difference between this "shallow rotation" being a today problem, and being a few years down the road thing.

I think this points to some of the poor "needs" recruiting in the previous regime (Shula). Nick's got his hands full. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure he has more than 2 or 3 years to plant Bama in the SEC Championship game. I'm not suggesting he'd get fired, I think that Nick would have quite the task dealing with the expectations of the media and fanbase at that point. It'll be interesting.

Most of our lack of depth/talent is in the areas where Shula was always maligned in recruiting efforts: DLine and LB. Shula recruited the skill positions quite well. We are deep at WR, RB, CB, and I think we have a good QB in JPW.

Right now we have a slow front 7 on D. Quite slow actually. I think part of our problems in the trenches (O and D) have to do with poor recruiting, and some of the problem with poor previous S&C. I think another year in Saban's S&C program will help. And I think some talent coming in will bring competition at all positions.

You also have to remember, regardless of Shula's recruiting in the past, he had 4 years of scholarship limitations, and one year of 25. So we still don't have the raw numbers that we should.

I think expecting a WHOLE lot this year or next would be stretching it. Consistent improvement from game one to game 12 isn't too much to ask though. And I think we will see that.