Iran

[otterinbham 0]

"Yes I do. Do you ever consider the motives of the left before you go off on a rant about Bush? And no I am not defending Bush. I find it a little odd that Biden and dem writers come out with similar statements and pieces with the same intent.

The left is and has been adhering to the Bill Clinton way of dealing with the past, present and future."

Again, you view everything in simplistic, black-and-white terms. Just because I fundamentally disagree with the way Bush is managing (or, to be more precise, bungling) things, that certainly doesn't make me an apologist for the Democrats.

More to the point, Bush plunged us into an ill-considered, poorly-planned invasion of Iraq based on the flimsiest of intelligence, intelligence that was later found to be almost totally reliant on one intelligence asset, Curveball, whom the Germans would not even allow us to interview and would later discount as unreliable before we even crossed the Iraqi frontier. Aerial photos of missile installations later turned out to be chicken farms.

And while you can trumpet the Surge all you like, the sad truth of the matter is it took four long years of hard-headed, doctrinaire stupidity before the military was allowed to shift tactics. That's longer than it took the US to defeat the Axis in the Second World War. Failure to acknowledge the reality on the ground and the outright stalling of wholesale changes in strategy is incredibly negligent, if not criminal.

Yet, despite this enormous mistake on the part of the Bush administration, you seem to blindly believe everything that's handed to you. And you ignore the current intelligence assessment that the threat isn't nearly what we're being told by the Oval Office. So who's ignoring reality here?

So what you are saying is this intelligence is much, much better than the other intelligence. OK

I think the US should apologize to Iran for even thinking they were up to no good.

Actually I have not come to any decision on Iran because of politics from this administration or from the dims. Ahmadinejad has helped me believe what they want and what they intend to do. Do you think the mullahs would keep Ahmadinejad in check if they thought the world would stand by and do nothing?

Actually, when it came to the intelligence on Iraq, the administration only paid attention to the intelligence that fit its agenda. There were very bitter internal rows at the CIA over the intelligence supporting the WMD claims. According to more than one account, fists were practically flying in the assessment meetings. There was a very strong set of dissenting voices within the CIA, voices which were ignored in the rush to war.

Now, it appears that Bush is once again disagreeing with intelligence assessments that do not fit his worldview. Which leads me to ask...are we going to war to end a threat to our national interests that cannot be solved by other means, or are we just trying to settle old scores. There's a big difference, and our credibility rests squarely upon the decisions we make.

[Tigermike 3,041]

"Yes I do. Do you ever consider the motives of the left before you go off on a rant about Bush? And no I am not defending Bush. I find it a little odd that Biden and dem writers come out with similar statements and pieces with the same intent.

The left is and has been adhering to the Bill Clinton way of dealing with the past, present and future."

Again, you view everything in simplistic, black-and-white terms. Just because I fundamentally disagree with the way Bush is managing (or, to be more precise, bungling) things, that certainly doesn't make me an apologist for the Democrats.

More to the point, Bush plunged us into an ill-considered, poorly-planned invasion of Iraq based on the flimsiest of intelligence, intelligence that was later found to be almost totally reliant on one intelligence asset, Curveball, whom the Germans would not even allow us to interview and would later discount as unreliable before we even crossed the Iraqi frontier. Aerial photos of missile installations later turned out to be chicken farms.

And while you can trumpet the Surge all you like, the sad truth of the matter is it took four long years of hard-headed, doctrinaire stupidity before the military was allowed to shift tactics. That's longer than it took the US to defeat the Axis in the Second World War. Failure to acknowledge the reality on the ground and the outright stalling of wholesale changes in strategy is incredibly negligent, if not criminal.

Yet, despite this enormous mistake on the part of the Bush administration, you seem to blindly believe everything that's handed to you. And you ignore the current intelligence assessment that the threat isn't nearly what we're being told by the Oval Office. So who's ignoring reality here?

So what you are saying is this intelligence is much, much better than the other intelligence. OK

I think the US should apologize to Iran for even thinking they were up to no good.

Actually I have not come to any decision on Iran because of politics from this administration or from the dims. Ahmadinejad has helped me believe what they want and what they intend to do. Do you think the mullahs would keep Ahmadinejad in check if they thought the world would stand by and do nothing?

Actually, when it came to the intelligence on Iraq, the administration only paid attention to the intelligence that fit its agenda. There were very bitter internal rows at the CIA over the intelligence supporting the WMD claims. According to more than one account, fists were practically flying in the assessment meetings. There was a very strong set of dissenting voices within the CIA, voices which were ignored in the rush to war.

Now, it appears that Bush is once again disagreeing with intelligence assessments that do not fit his worldview. Which leads me to ask...are we going to war to end a threat to our national interests that cannot be solved by other means, or are we just trying to settle old scores. There's a big difference, and our credibility rests squarely upon the decisions we make.

Here is a good assessment of the entire episode. link

Many involved in drafting and approving the NIE were not intelligence professionals but refugees from the State Department, brought into the new central bureaucracy of the director of national intelligence. These officials had relatively benign views of Iran's nuclear intentions five and six years ago; now they are writing those views as if they were received wisdom from on high. In fact, these are precisely the policy biases they had before, recycled as "intelligence judgments."

[AURaptor 1,125]

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

[CCTAU 3,336]

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

Amen. There are folks out there who claim that Iran has already received atomic weapons from Russia. We have no idea how much weapons grade atomic material has been created.

As for my analogy, if the police told you, then it's all good. Until I blow your a** up with the bomb that I had hidden. As long as Amenwhondad keeps talking about destroying another country, I refuse to believe any report. A man that is that mad will eventually carry out the threat. So we as a nation MUST continue to make it clear that we are on the edge at all times. And then we must hope that the people of Iran get tired of living the way they do and get rid of Amenaboobydad. But to back down and say, "The report said all is good. We can sleep now" is foolish as hell.

BTW There is no such thing as a safe neighborhood.

[TexasTiger 12,965]

You live in a simple world where only one side can lie.

Raptor: Criticize Bush and you're a traitor.

You would be very comfortable in a fascist state.

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

[AURaptor 1,125]

You live in a simple world where only one side can lie.

Raptor: Criticize Bush and you're a traitor.

You would be very comfortable in a fascist state.

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

Your beef w/ me is isn't based on the facts, but because you can't stand that Bush is right. Who is deluding themselves more ? France, Germany and Israel all 3 don't buy the NIE report. THEY agree with Bush. So, all this talk about Bush being the cowboy, going it alone, blah blah blah....it's all B.S.!!

What the hell is there about keeping tabs on a known terrorist state makes you utter such inane remarks like, "You would be very comfortable in a fascist state. " ??? That makes ZERO sense, what so ever.

[TexasTiger 12,965]

You live in a simple world where only one side can lie.

Raptor: Criticize Bush and you're a traitor.

You would be very comfortable in a fascist state.

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

Your beef w/ me is isn't based on the facts, but because you can't stand that Bush is right. Who is deluding themselves more ? France, Germany and Israel all 3 don't buy the NIE report. THEY agree with Bush. So, all this talk about Bush being the cowboy, going it alone, blah blah blah....it's all B.S.!!

What the hell is there about keeping tabs on a known terrorist state makes you utter such inane remarks like, "You would be very comfortable in a fascist state. " ??? That makes ZERO sense, what so ever.

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

[Tigermike 3,041]

You live in a simple world where only one side can lie.

Raptor: Criticize Bush and you're a traitor.

You would be very comfortable in a fascist state.

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

Your beef w/ me is isn't based on the facts, but because you can't stand that Bush is right. Who is deluding themselves more ? France, Germany and Israel all 3 don't buy the NIE report. THEY agree with Bush. So, all this talk about Bush being the cowboy, going it alone, blah blah blah....it's all B.S.!!

What the hell is there about keeping tabs on a known terrorist state makes you utter such inane remarks like, "You would be very comfortable in a fascist state. " ??? That makes ZERO sense, what so ever.

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

Are you still holding the report up as being accurate?

[AURaptor 1,125]

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

Ok, now you've just changed the whole topic, to whether Bush is right in how we treat Iran to not what Bush knew , but WHEN he knew it. This has nothing to do w/ me 'keeping up' with anything except your attempts to tear down Bush, while glossing over the larger, far more important issues. When Bush knew the report was out, or it's content before the public did is pretty damn insignificant , if you ask me. Since you failed to present a quote, or show in what context your beef is NOW, I'm at a loss as to how to respond further.

Sorry

[TigerStar 0]

So for those that believe that Bush lied, THIS is the intelligence that we should believe (not all of those other reports that we didn't like what they said, so they must have been false), is Iran harmless?

Is there nothing to worry about regarding Iran's weapons capability?

[TexasTiger 12,965]

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

Ok, now you've just changed the whole topic, to whether Bush is right in how we treat Iran to not what Bush knew , but WHEN he knew it. This has nothing to do w/ me 'keeping up' with anything except your attempts to tear down Bush, while glossing over the larger, far more important issues. When Bush knew the report was out, or it's content before the public did is pretty damn insignificant , if you ask me. Since you failed to present a quote, or show in what context your beef is NOW, I'm at a loss as to how to respond further.

Sorry

Read the original post of this thread, genius. Haven't changed the topic, you did.

[TexasTiger 12,965]

You live in a simple world where only one side can lie.

Raptor: Criticize Bush and you're a traitor.

You would be very comfortable in a fascist state.

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

Your beef w/ me is isn't based on the facts, but because you can't stand that Bush is right. Who is deluding themselves more ? France, Germany and Israel all 3 don't buy the NIE report. THEY agree with Bush. So, all this talk about Bush being the cowboy, going it alone, blah blah blah....it's all B.S.!!

What the hell is there about keeping tabs on a known terrorist state makes you utter such inane remarks like, "You would be very comfortable in a fascist state. " ??? That makes ZERO sense, what so ever.

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

Are you still holding the report up as being accurate?

I don't know. It is produced by the Bush administration, so as history has proven, it is suspect.

But Bush is free to reject it. He needs to explain his basis for rejecting his own administration's intelligence, but he's free to do that. Just be honest about it. "I wasn't aware of it?" Puhleeese.

[Tigermike 3,041]

You live in a simple world where only one side can lie.

Raptor: Criticize Bush and you're a traitor.

You would be very comfortable in a fascist state.

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

Your beef w/ me is isn't based on the facts, but because you can't stand that Bush is right. Who is deluding themselves more ? France, Germany and Israel all 3 don't buy the NIE report. THEY agree with Bush. So, all this talk about Bush being the cowboy, going it alone, blah blah blah....it's all B.S.!!

What the hell is there about keeping tabs on a known terrorist state makes you utter such inane remarks like, "You would be very comfortable in a fascist state. " ??? That makes ZERO sense, what so ever.

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

Are you still holding the report up as being accurate?

I don't know. It is produced by the Bush administration, so as history has proven, it is suspect.

But Bush is free to reject it. He needs to explain his basis for rejecting his own administration's intelligence, but he's free to do that. Just be honest about it. "I wasn't aware of it?" Puhleeese.

Go back and take a look at this thread. There is a lot at play here other than Bush's incompetence.

[TexasTiger 12,965]

You live in a simple world where only one side can lie.

Raptor: Criticize Bush and you're a traitor.

You would be very comfortable in a fascist state.

Iran, not Bush, is lying here. Anyone who doesn't see that is either

a) A complete idiot

b ) A traitor

c ) Some combo of a+b.

Your beef w/ me is isn't based on the facts, but because you can't stand that Bush is right. Who is deluding themselves more ? France, Germany and Israel all 3 don't buy the NIE report. THEY agree with Bush. So, all this talk about Bush being the cowboy, going it alone, blah blah blah....it's all B.S.!!

What the hell is there about keeping tabs on a known terrorist state makes you utter such inane remarks like, "You would be very comfortable in a fascist state. " ??? That makes ZERO sense, what so ever.

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

Are you still holding the report up as being accurate?

I don't know. It is produced by the Bush administration, so as history has proven, it is suspect.

But Bush is free to reject it. He needs to explain his basis for rejecting his own administration's intelligence, but he's free to do that. Just be honest about it. "I wasn't aware of it?" Puhleeese.

Go back and take a look at this thread. There is a lot at play here other than Bush's incompetence.

If this document is as flawed as Bolten claims, then Bush's incompetence is even more relevant:

many involved in drafting and approving the NIE were not intelligence professionals but refugees from the State Department, brought into the new central bureaucracy of the director of national intelligence.

Bush created this new bureaucracy and appointed this new director of national intelligence. So, if as Bolten claims, Bush's new director brings in incompetent people and they draft a faulty document which adherence to will threaten our national security, why haven't heads rolled? What is the CEO doing to right the ship? If Bolten is right, the President is failing us miserably on the national security front, right? Such incompetence on the part the folks Bolten claims would be scandalous, wouldn't it?

[AURaptor 1,125]

So, no matter what the report says, you're simply going to blame Bush. Right. That seems fair and balanced.

[AURaptor 1,125]

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

Ok, now you've just changed the whole topic, to whether Bush is right in how we treat Iran to not what Bush knew , but WHEN he knew it. This has nothing to do w/ me 'keeping up' with anything except your attempts to tear down Bush, while glossing over the larger, far more important issues. When Bush knew the report was out, or it's content before the public did is pretty damn insignificant , if you ask me. Since you failed to present a quote, or show in what context your beef is NOW, I'm at a loss as to how to respond further.

Sorry

Read the original post of this thread, genius. Haven't changed the topic, you did.

Oh, wait...this is all based on the idiot Biden's opinion of what Bush said, right ? Ok, that explains it. Biden's a pompous a** who'd distort just about anything to bash the President. I'm not buying Biden's version of the facts, not by a long shot.

[TexasTiger 12,965]

Keep up. Bush claimed he wasn't even aware of the report. You believe that?

Ok, now you've just changed the whole topic, to whether Bush is right in how we treat Iran to not what Bush knew , but WHEN he knew it. This has nothing to do w/ me 'keeping up' with anything except your attempts to tear down Bush, while glossing over the larger, far more important issues. When Bush knew the report was out, or it's content before the public did is pretty damn insignificant , if you ask me. Since you failed to present a quote, or show in what context your beef is NOW, I'm at a loss as to how to respond further.

Sorry

Read the original post of this thread, genius. Haven't changed the topic, you did.

Oh, wait...this is all based on the idiot Biden's opinion of what Bush said, right ? Ok, that explains it. Biden's a pompous a** who'd distort just about anything to bash the President. I'm not buying Biden's version of the facts, not by a long shot.

You couldn't be a bigger Bushbot buttkisser. Biden is a pompous a**. The fact remains, Bush either is lying about not being aware of the report, or he is incompetent for not being aware of the report. You have done everything you can to ignore the basic facts of this thread.

[TexasTiger 12,965]

So, no matter what the report says, you're simply going to blame Bush. Right. That seems fair and balanced.

I see you don't dispute my logic or the facts. You only blindly support Bush. SSDD.

[autiger4life 3]

France, Germany and Israel all 3 don't buy the NIE report

Well Israel has nothing at stake here. I can't believe that they would be against people saying Iran isn't as dangerous as we thought.

On a seperate note, I think it is kinda funny that when something good happens with the war in Iraq, all the people on the right get mad because it seems that the democrats are mad that something is actually working. Take the surge for instance, it seems to be working, and it also seems that some democrats are mad about this.

Then you get a report like this, and the republicans seem upset that something positive could be coming from Iran. It also destroys part of their agenda.

I'm a younger guy, still a college student so I'm not sure I know the answer to the question I am about to ask:

When did people(not just politicians) start caring more about their side being right than what is best for the country?

You would think people would be skeptical, but at no point, with either one of these issues does anyone say, well thank God the surge might working, or thank God that Iran may not be as bad as we thought. Instead you just hear bickering because it might hurt the party, not the country.

[autigeremt 6,654]

This country needs to realize how we exist, why we exist, and where we will be in a few years.

But REALITY is the last thing many people want to see, hear, or envision.

[AURaptor 1,125]

So, no matter what the report says, you're simply going to blame Bush. Right. That seems fair and balanced.

I see you don't dispute my logic or the facts. You only blindly support Bush. SSDD.

On this issue, I support Bush because HE is right. Iran can't be trusted, and sadly, it seems neither can elements in our own intel society.