Stoops vs. Malzahn

[Rednilla 5,390]

10 hours ago, ToomersStreet said:

Here we go with the " I'd rather have a coach that goes 8-5 and says War Eagle and No Doubt than a guy that consistently wins 10+ games a year any day" defense.  I am sick and tired of all the Gus defending.  Seriously he could go 8-5 this year and the same people on this board will make excuses for him and Jacobs. 

I'm pretty sure I haven't seen ANYONE defending Jacobs on this board. The unanimous opinion, as far as I can tell, is that he should be gone as soon as possible.

[Rednilla 5,390]

Guys, I feel the need to point out that, as someone mentioned, Stoops had his first job as a college assistant in 1985. Gus started coaching HIGH SCHOOL ball in 1991, and didn't get his first college gig until 2006. That's more than two decades of time spent in the college ranks that Malzahn didn't have to prepare himself for being head coach. He was a bigger part of the national championship in 2010 than Chizik, in my opinion, and he was within seconds of winning it all again in his second season as a college head coach. He's had us in the top 10 late in the season two of the last three years despite the collapses we've endured, which seems like a coach learning, on the job, how to finish.

Now, he certainly deserves blame for those late season issues, just as he deserves blame for not having a backup for Sean last year (I don't put JJ on his shoulders, and he DID recruit White to succeed Johnson). He's performed, again, like a coach learning on the job. And he has us in a position now where we have talent up and down the roster, multiple positive options at QB, and solid assistants around him to coach those players up.

So, I'll answer the question of whether I'd like to have Stoops or Malzahn as AU's head coach with a question of my own: Would you rather have a coach with a history, or a coach with a future?

[auburn4ever 1,266]

Stoops knows how to win. Malzahn doesn't. Or at least he hasn't during his 4 years at AU. 12-2, 8-5, 7-6, 8-5.

[Rednilla 5,390]

3 minutes ago, auburn4ever said:

Stoops knows how to win. Malzahn doesn't. Or at least he hasn't during his 4 years at AU. 12-2, 8-5, 7-6, 8-5.

You don't math too well, do you? That's 35 wins, and an SEC Championship, for a guy who doesn't know to win.

[GwillMac6 20,671]

11 hours ago, AU64 said:

Thing is....nothing says Stoops is "available"....staying at OU...if he wanted to coach he could do it there with much less wear and tear than than the SEC. ..but I understand boredom... 

MY prediction...next AU coach (and sooner or later there will be one) will not be a home run ....and likely not be someone that fans are excited about.  It ain't JJ...it's coaching at AU that causes us to have to hire the coaches we get...look back to all of our previous coaches after Shug and consider their resume's before we hired them.  We generally have to roll the dice and see what happens...JMO

IDK why we could not attract more impressive coaches back in the day but by now the book is all out there about us and how our administration operates and how it is a complete and utter clusterf*$%. A proven guy is going to want and demand full control and The PTB rather go 8-5 than give up the power they have.

[lost 452]

39 minutes ago, Rednilla said:

Guys, I feel the need to point out that, as someone mentioned, Stoops had his first job as a college assistant was in 1985. Gus started coaching HIGH SCHOOL ball in 1991, and didn't get his first college gig until 2006. That's more than two decades of time spent in the college ranks that Malzahn didn't have to prepare himself for being head coach. He was a bigger part of the national championship in 2010 than Chizik, in my opinion, and he was within seconds of winning it all again in his second season as a college head coach. He's had us in the top 10 late in the season two of the last three years despite the collapses we've endured, which seems like a coach learning, on the job, how to finish.

Now, he certainly deserves blame for those late season issues, just as he deserves blame for not having a backup for Sean last year (I don't put JJ on his shoulders, and he DID recruit White to succeed Johnson). He's performed, again, like a coach learning on the job. And he has us in a position now where we have talent up and down the roster, multiple positive options at QB, and solid assistants around him to coach those players up.

So, I'll answer the question of whether I'd like to have Stoops or Malzahn as AU's head coach with a question of my own: Would you rather have a coach with a history, or a coach with a future?

Old friend ---  I am all for Coach Malzhan becoming the best we have ever had.  I have heard comparisons of Malzhan and Saban as far as their drive and Passion  I think IF Gus can adapt as he goes along and learn from his failures he has all the capability .  I am like you, as it is no coincidence that he has been around 2 championships already in his young career.    Oh yea... Hi again after a long spell Red.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

4 hours ago, lost said:

All we had to do was line up and run the ball against Georgia and we would have won. 

Line up who? By the end of the game, Kam Martin was the only uninjured back we had left. By then Georgia knew all they had to do was stack the box because Sean's arm was toast.

4 hours ago, lost said:

All we had to do was have a plan to use Franklin's qualities to the best and we would have not had to play a wounded duck qb.... 

Seriously? Did you watch the games he played QB? That wasn't on the coaches (other than the fact that they recruited him), he just doesn't have it... and our opponents knew that. He was completely unreliable on short and medium passes and he did not protect the ball when he ran.

 

I get it... you're an old school southern football fan who has spent years in the culture of "if the teams not winnin', the coach has got to go". I'm an analyst. I look at what is happening, apply logic, and try to avoid assumptions... especially those that go against the basic premise that all coaches want to win. I have no illusions that Gus is perfect, or that he has not been and will not still be learning the job of head coach for a few years to come, but I can't buy into the belief that anything he does on the football field is not a logically though out, strategic attempt to win... the logic may be flawed at times, but anyone who thinks that there was a no brainer way to win more games last year obviously doesn't get the complexity of the game.

[DAG 33,980]

7 hours ago, JDUBB4AU said:

I'm fine with you not liking stoops. I am not tore up about it . It's a message board. We have different opinions. Man I am in a good mood . Your line about comprehension. Come on dude. We are on the same team Dag. 

 

 

 

 

Are we? You seem to have relished in the fact that he beat us (Correct) in his last game of the season to prove your point. Of course, we had no SW which was huge. I wonder how OU would've faired without their starting QB? I guess it is all semantics. You are right. This is a message board and everyone has a right to their opinion. What pisses me off more than anything is when people interject something entirely different than the message I was conveying. Point in case, your comment about being crazy, If I didn't think Stoops did great OU. Ok so here is my come on dude comment. I NEVER uttered that Stoops was not great at OU. In fact, I think he did very well for himself at OU. What I said was, I did not think he could replicate that same sustained success he had at OU here at AU. At Bama? Sure. At LSU? Yeah. Here? No. I am totally fine with disagreements. I am not fine with completely disregarding what my point was and making up another tag line.

[DAG 33,980]

7 hours ago, AU64 said:

not a problem ....but one other point.....Texas has kicked their butts in recruiting year in and year out and Stoops has probably gotten at least two UT coaches fired because they could not beat him often enough....that's gotta be worth something. Other than that OU is mostly a top 10-15 recruiting class....good but not outstanding.

 

 

 

Yes. It is worth something. In the BIG 12. Now, I don't know how you are measuring your recruiting standards, but I went back all the way to 2007 (247 as a reference point) for recruiting classes. In that time span, Texas had the #1 recruiting class 6 times and OU had #1 recruiting class 4 times relative to the big 12 conference. In all 10 years, both Texas and OU were either #1 or #2. This is not getting your butt kicked by any means, so again, he should be able to compete with UT. In fact, it is expected of him to beat them, every year. He is not coaching at Baylor here. I don't know where you are going with your national recruiting class point, but having a top 10-15 class nationally ranked in the big 12 is VERY good. Can you point me to another team in the big 12 besides UT who is doing that? Last year alone, the SEC had 6 teams in the top 15 alone (247). The big 12 had 1, OU.  Other than OU, they had zero teams in the top 25 nationally ranked. Compare that to the SEC who had 9 in the top 25. It is not a fair comparison for logical reasons.

[aucom96 1,618]

Bob Stoops was a top level defensive coordinator that proved he could manage a winning football team consistently. Gus Malzahn was a top level offensive coordinator that has yet to do the same. He's made some steps, but this is a guy with an outsized ego for his years as a SEC head coach. This season will be interesting to watch. Last season injuries cost us, undoubtedly. But it was Gus's staff who recruited undersized QBs and project "dual threats" with known accuracy issues. It was Gus who spent two years thinking he could outscore every team rather than build a solid defense. It was Gus who built a lopsided, one-dimensional offense that became simple to defend once the new wore off. Stoops is a head coach. Gus is still learning to be one. I don't think Auburn should be an "on the job training" program. The money is too big. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

10 minutes ago, aucom96 said:

He's made some steps, but this is a guy with an outsized ego for his years as a SEC head coach.

It would be interesting to hear what people who actually know him have to say about his ego...

12 minutes ago, aucom96 said:

It was Gus who spent two years thinking he could outscore every team rather than build a solid defense.

Yea... that was what he was doing... He hired Johnson thinking "eh.. I don't need a defense, so I'll hire this guy with 40 year of coaching experience who was the DC for Clemson, bama, South Carolina and Mississippi State because he obviously doesn't know what he's doing."

15 minutes ago, aucom96 said:

It was Gus who built a lopsided, one-dimensional offense that became simple to defend once the new wore off.

Yup... and look at all of those teams that shut down that offense when we had the personnel to run it. 

27 minutes ago, aucom96 said:

Bob Stoops was a top level defensive coordinator that proved he could manage a winning football team consistently. Gus Malzahn was a top level offensive coordinator that has yet to do the same. Stoops is a head coach. Gus is still learning to be one.

You should have stuck with just these statements.  They are totally accurate.

[aucom96 1,618]

2 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

Yea... that was what he was doing... He hired Johnson thinking "eh.. I don't need a defense, so I'll hire this guy with 40 year of coaching experience who was the DC for Clemson, bama, South Carolina and Mississippi State because he obviously doesn't know what he's doing."

His recruiting and statements reflected a "limit the damage" defensive mentality, and that's how we played that side of the ball until it became painfully obvious this wasn't a successful long term strategy. 

Yup... and look at all of those teams that shut down that offense when we had the personnel to run it. 

That's Malzahn's responsibility, and it's been a lingering problem. Why did we rotate QBs like a spring game against Clemson? Why did our star RB last season sit the bench starting the year and seemingly surprise his coaches as a playmaker? Why is our only backup solution at the most important position on the field a project who didn't even start his JC team? 

 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

24 minutes ago, aucom96 said:

His recruiting and statements reflected a "limit the damage" defensive mentality, and that's how we played that side of the ball until it became painfully obvious this wasn't a successful long term strategy. 

Really?  We recruited Lawson, Adams, & Cowart during that period, as well as several other well beyond serviceable defensive players. In fact, the 2016 D that was dominant last year was in large part made up of players who were recruited during that period. The truth is, Gus hired a guy who had a serious pedigree to turn the D around and Johnson couldn't get it done, so as an good head coach would do, he hired someone else. Trying to say that Gus didn't care about defense is one of the biggest fables I've seen spun by any Gus hater.

24 minutes ago, aucom96 said:

That's Malzahn's responsibility, and it's been a lingering problem. Why did we rotate QBs like a spring game against Clemson? Why did our star RB last season sit the bench starting the year and seemingly surprise his coaches as a playmaker? Why is our only backup solution at the most important position on the field a project who didn't even start his JC team?

I, and for that matter no one, can defend Gus for hanging his hat on Franklin. No one knows what he was thinking or where the motivation came from. So I have no clue what the answer to your third question is. The answer to your first question is that they spent too much time trying to make it work, once they went all in on Franklin.  The answer to your second question is that apparently Kam didn't show out in practice or he would have been #1 from the beginning.  Some players just have that extra something when they are out there in front of the crowd.  Kam is one of them. No one who has any clue about the history of Auburn's running game would question Gus's ability to run that aspect of the game.

I don't know how you can say personnel has been a lingering problem when you look at the current roster. There were holes that had to be filled... some which existed before Gus took over as head coach. Now all of them have been filled... all with exceptionally good talent. We have one of the top receiving corps in the country... something we haven't been able to say in over a decade, likely the top 1-2 combo of QBs in the country, the top returning stable of running backs in the SEC, the best linebacker group that we've had in nearly a decade, one of the best D-Lines in the country, the best kicker in the country... and so on. 

[JDUBB4AU 5,112]

16 hours ago, DAG said:

Are we? You seem to have relished in the fact that he beat us (Correct) in his last game of the season to prove your point. Of course, we had no SW which was huge. I wonder how OU would've faired without their starting QB? I guess it is all semantics. You are right. This is a message board and everyone has a right to their opinion. What pisses me off more than anything is when people interject something entirely different than the message I was conveying. Point in case, your comment about being crazy, If I didn't think Stoops did great OU. Ok so here is my come on dude comment. I NEVER uttered that Stoops was not great at OU. In fact, I think he did very well for himself at OU. What I said was, I did not think he could replicate that same sustained success he had at OU here at AU. At Bama? Sure. At LSU? Yeah. Here? No. I am totally fine with disagreements. I am not fine with completely disregarding what my point was and making up another tag line.

I don't remember your point and I am not reading back through the thread to try and figure it out. You take this stuff serious . I get it. Probably too serious . If I hurt your feelings by not agreeing with you. I don't know what to tell you. Stoops did good in Norman. Could he do that here? I don't have a crystal ball. Speaking of coming from the Big 12. Didn't Les miles come from OKC? He did well in the SEC. 

[jAUSon 2,836]

4 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

Really?  We recruited Lawson, Adams, & Cowart during that period, as well as several other well beyond serviceable defensive players. In fact, the 2016 D that was dominant last year was in large part made up of players who were recruited during that period. The truth is, Gus hired a guy who had a serious pedigree to turn the D around and Johnson couldn't get it done, so as an good head coach would do, he hired someone else. Trying to say that Gus didn't care about defense is one of the biggest fables I've seen spun by any Gus hater.

I, and for that matter no one, can defend Gus for hanging his hat on Franklin. No one knows what he was thinking or where the motivation came from. So I have no clue what the answer to your third question is. The answer to your first question is that they spent too much time trying to make it work, once they went all in on Franklin.  The answer to your second question is that apparently Kam didn't show out in practice or he would have been #1 from the beginning.  Some players just have that extra something when they are out there in front of the crowd.  Kam is one of them. No one who has any clue about the history of Auburn's running game would question Gus's ability to run that aspect of the game.

I don't know how you can say personnel has been a lingering problem when you look at the current roster. There were holes that had to be filled... some which existed before Gus took over as head coach. Now all of them have been filled... all with exceptionally good talent. We have one of the top receiving corps in the country... something we haven't been able to say in over a decade, likely the top 1-2 combo of QBs in the country, the top returning stable of running backs in the SEC, the best linebacker group that we've had in nearly a decade, one of the best D-Lines in the country, the best kicker in the country... and so on. 

If they used those second half opportunities to rep jf3 instead of squandering, maybe build a small playbook with him, we win the Georgia game. No if ands or buts about it. 

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

15 minutes ago, jAUSon said:

If they used those second half opportunities to rep jf3 instead of squandering, maybe build a small playbook with him, we win the Georgia game. No if ands or buts about it. 

Not unusual for me, but

I'm confused.

[jAUSon 2,836]

3 minutes ago, AUld fAUx@ said:

Not unusual for me, but

I'm confused.

try harder

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

4 minutes ago, jAUSon said:

try harder

OK

in progress

[lionheartkc 6,150]

5 hours ago, jAUSon said:

If they used those second half opportunities to rep jf3 instead of squandering, maybe build a small playbook with him, we win the Georgia game. No if ands or buts about it. 

Unless rep ping him doesn't fix his issues. The fact that he's a wide receiver now says that might be the case.

[DAG 33,980]

8 hours ago, JDUBB4AU said:

I don't remember your point and I am not reading back through the thread to try and figure it out. You take this stuff serious . I get it. Probably too serious . If I hurt your feelings by not agreeing with you. I don't know what to tell you. Stoops did good in Norman. Could he do that here? I don't have a crystal ball. Speaking of coming from the Big 12. Didn't Les miles come from OKC? He did well in the SEC. 

5

Yeah. You really hurt my feelings, while you got your titties in a wad because I said step up your reading comprehension. By not agreeing with me? You do not even know how to make a simple counterpoint. BTW, speaking of reading comprehension (See below).

On 6/9/2017 at 1:00 AM, DAG said:

What I said was, I did not think he could replicate that same sustained success he had at OU here at AU. At Bama? Sure. At LSU? Yeah. Here? No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe, if you did take a look back, you would be much better at this. I imagine like Les, Stoops could also be successful at LSU since they have pointed advantages similar to what he had at OU. I do NOT think he would be successful here. Les Miles took over an LSU program well established and two years removed from an NC win. Or did you not know that? He just maintained the wave from the previous successor. BTW, how is Les doing in the ole coaching department now?

[AU64 10,122]

7 hours ago, DAG said:

Yeah. You really hurt my feelings, while you got your titties in a wad because I said step up your reading comprehension. By not agreeing with me? You do not even know how to make a simple counterpoint. BTW, speaking of reading comprehension (See below).

Maybe, if you did take a look back, you would be much better at this. I imagine like Les, Stoops could also be successful at LSU since they have pointed advantages similar to what he had at OU. I do NOT think he would be successful here. Les Miles took over an LSU program well established and two years removed from an NC win. Or did you not know that? He just maintained the wave from the previous successor. BTW, how is Les doing in the ole coaching department now?

Don't think anyone is going to beat out Saban now...so that's not a good comparison. And Saban came from the Big 10 and  has done much better in the SEC than he did at Michigan State....but that proves nothing since he was just getting started as a HC back then.  

Good coaches adapt to their situation which Stoops did.....not much instate talent so learned to recruit Texas, etc.....Same for Saban ...he's not limited to Alabama...recruits all over the nation which AU has mostly be reluctant to do.      As for Les....love the guy..especially his enthusiasm but he was never the coach that Stoops or Saban are....and I guess that same can be said for Richt...very good coaches but they did not  take full advantage of some natural recruiting opportunities.

Whatever you think about Gus...I'm not sure there is  anyone out there who would do much better....maybe against the league as a whole but not against Saban...because I don't see an AU coach ...even one named Belichick ...who is going to ever have more talent than a Saban team...or even as much. JMO

[jAUSon 2,836]

17 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

Unless rep ping him doesn't fix his issues. The fact that he's a wide receiver now says that might be the case.

Lionheart I'm a fan of yours so I'll just back this thing down. I'm all in on the changes CGM has made this off season, it fixes (on paper) a lot of our very tangible issues. I'll always blame CGM for Clemson, and UGA. I almost threw a party when CRL took a job elsewhere, and I'll always believe 100% JF3 had enough for a "save" in the UGA game. I'll quit right here by admiting all this adds nothing to the comparisons between Malzahn and Stoops. Great forum. Even when we're arguing. WDE.

[DAG 33,980]

13 hours ago, AU64 said:

Don't think anyone is going to beat out Saban now...so that's not a good comparison. And Saban came from the Big 10 and  has done much better in the SEC than he did at Michigan State....but that proves nothing since he was just getting started as a HC back then.  

Good coaches adapt to their situation which Stoops did.....not much instate talent so learned to recruit Texas, etc.....Same for Saban ...he's not limited to Alabama...recruits all over the nation which AU has mostly be reluctant to do.      As for Les....love the guy..especially his enthusiasm but he was never the coach that Stoops or Saban are....and I guess that same can be said for Richt...very good coaches but they did not  take full advantage of some natural recruiting opportunities.

Whatever you think about Gus...I'm not sure there is  anyone out there who would do much better....maybe against the league as a whole but not against Saban...because I don't see an AU coach ...even one named Belichick ...who is going to ever have more talent than a Saban team...or even as much. JMO

 

That's fair. Although, I think you give Stoops way too much credit for recruiting Texas. OU had a pipeline in Texas since the Barry Switzer days. Brian Bosworth, Joe Washington anyone?

Alabama is one school in the SEC. Besides Texas, who else has OU talent in the Big 12?  Stoops would not have the benefit of facing one individual talented team in the SEC. Maybe he could adapt in the SEC, but he never had to in the Big 12. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great coach for OU.

And btw, this is not a dig at bob stoops. NS didn't invent the wheel at Alabama , UM didn't invent the wheel at UF or tOSU and Jim didn't invent the wheel at UM. They used there coaching knowledge , systematical approaches and disciplinary methods and meshed it with the already blue chip status of those programs . However there is a distinctive feature between those three and Stoops. Those other coaches had to adapt and win at other places. UM did it at Bowling green and UTAH, NS did it at Toledo and the tail end of Michigan State. Jim built a very good program at Standford . Could Stoops do that ? Who knows ? He has never been asked to.

[AU64 10,122]

40 minutes ago, DAG said:

That's fair. Although, I think you give Stoops way too much credit for recruiting Texas. OU had a pipeline in Texas since the Barry Switzer days. Brian Bosworth, Joe Washington anyone?

Alabama is one school in the SEC. Besides Texas, who else has OU talent in the Big 12?  Stoops would not have the benefit of facing one individual talented team in the SEC. Maybe he could adapt in the SEC, but he never had to in the Big 12. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great coach for OU.

 Just one other comment . The Big 12 has gone through all kinds of shake ups in the 20 or so years that Stoops has been there .  Over the years it included Texas A and M , Nebraska , Colorado .Missouri and seems like another team or two. I don't recall that it has always been an air raid type of conference. All the coaches in that conference have had to adapt to big changes in recent years. It was a tougher, more physical conference before some of the schools mentioned above departed....JMO. 

[DAG 33,980]

6 minutes ago, AU64 said:

 Just one other comment . The Big 12 has gone through all kinds of shake ups in the 20 or so years that Stoops has been there .  Over the years it included Texas A and M , Nebraska , Colorado .Missouri and seems like another team or two. I don't recall that it has always been an air raid type of conference. All the coaches in that conference have had to adapt to big changes in recent years. It was a tougher, more physical conference before some of the schools mentioned above departed....JMO. 

I absolutely agree with this . Particularly when Kansas State was running things in the late 90s. Of course Nebraska but that was before Stoops . Although , I will say Nebraska had a couple of teams who were legit during the Stoops era. Not to mention Oklahoma state . I just can't think of any who were legitimate NC threats other then maybe Oklahoma state