Confusing politics with religion

[icanthearyou 4,465]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

:rolleyes:/>

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

No problem have at it. I haven't been listening to anyone but i see that didn't stop you from bashing my opinions on assumptions that I do. I never tried that sophomoric approach with you. I happen to have the ability to formulate an opinion by watching the game as its being played. if you're arguing that the mainstream media is not a sock puppet mouth piece for this administration I'd have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the actual events just their reporting of them. This president is all at once, in every situation, both the victor and the victim and has never been held accountable for anything no matter how obvious his ineptitude. Its always about those right wing extremists.. Please do...carry on, as will I!

Maybe it is the uncompromising, close minded arrogance of the right wing extremists that allows the media to portray the President as both victor and victim? Maybe it is the perception that the extreme right wing would rather destroy him (politically) than compromise with him or counsel him?

Maybe but maybe not. I guess one is entitled to believe whatever works best for them. I must tell you that i find your rhetorical question about republican arrogance and unwillingness to compromise right laughable. Uncompromising is this presidents hallmark characteristic. He never allowed republicans ANY voice in his signature ACA law and he never allowed them any voice in current events either when by virtue of constitutional delegation of power the House had every right to do what they did in this last episode. Obviously, there's much debate on the wisdom of their tactics and that will be made evident in due time but they were not acting like right wing extremists but rather dutifully trying to fulfill their roles .There are 2 phases to enacting such a sweeping entitlement law..passing it - then funding it. I understand the republicans heartburn myself but many do not.

I'm not sure laughable is the right word but, I find it strange that you would challenge the use of the word uncompromising when the ability to compromise within it's own ranks threatens the very foundation of the party. Extreme right wing Republicans seem all to eager to cast out those who do not conform. Perhaps I just don't understand the rhetoric but it seems pretty clear.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

:rolleyes:/>

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

No problem have at it. I haven't been listening to anyone but i see that didn't stop you from bashing my opinions on assumptions that I do. I never tried that sophomoric approach with you. I happen to have the ability to formulate an opinion by watching the game as its being played. if you're arguing that the mainstream media is not a sock puppet mouth piece for this administration I'd have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the actual events just their reporting of them. This president is all at once, in every situation, both the victor and the victim and has never been held accountable for anything no matter how obvious his ineptitude. Its always about those right wing extremists.. Please do...carry on, as will I!

Maybe it is the uncompromising, close minded arrogance of the right wing extremists that allows the media to portray the President as both victor and victim? Maybe it is the perception that the extreme right wing would rather destroy him (politically) than compromise with him or counsel him?

Maybe but maybe not. I guess one is entitled to believe whatever works best for them. I must tell you that i find your rhetorical question about republican arrogance and unwillingness to compromise right laughable. Uncompromising is this presidents hallmark characteristic. He never allowed republicans ANY voice in his signature ACA law and he never allowed them any voice in current events either when by virtue of constitutional delegation of power the House had every right to do what they did in this last episode. Obviously, there's much debate on the wisdom of their tactics and that will be made evident in due time but they were not acting like right wing extremists but rather dutifully trying to fulfill their roles .There are 2 phases to enacting such a sweeping entitlement law..passing it - then funding it. I understand the republicans heartburn myself but many do not.

I'm not sure laughable is the right word but, I find it strange that you would challenge the use of the word uncompromising when the ability to compromise within it's own ranks threatens the very foundation of the party. Extreme right wing Republicans seem all to eager to cast out those who do not conform. Perhaps I just don't understand the rhetoric but it seems pretty clear.

The greatest threat to the republican party is the quisling weak kneed establishment career politicians among their ranks who would rather not rock the boat because they love their gig but who lack the courage of conviction for what conservatism is. I WANT to see the foundation of the party rocked because the last thing republicans need to do is sell themselves as a pale shade of contrast to the left. They need more message discipline and courage to starkly differentiate themselves and their failure to do that has lead us to where we are now with people saying there's no difference in the parties and TBH theres not. THATS their biggest problem in a nutshell. Too many McConnells and McCains hanging around for life.

[icanthearyou 4,465]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

:rolleyes:/>

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

No problem have at it. I haven't been listening to anyone but i see that didn't stop you from bashing my opinions on assumptions that I do. I never tried that sophomoric approach with you. I happen to have the ability to formulate an opinion by watching the game as its being played. if you're arguing that the mainstream media is not a sock puppet mouth piece for this administration I'd have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the actual events just their reporting of them. This president is all at once, in every situation, both the victor and the victim and has never been held accountable for anything no matter how obvious his ineptitude. Its always about those right wing extremists.. Please do...carry on, as will I!

Maybe it is the uncompromising, close minded arrogance of the right wing extremists that allows the media to portray the President as both victor and victim? Maybe it is the perception that the extreme right wing would rather destroy him (politically) than compromise with him or counsel him?

Maybe but maybe not. I guess one is entitled to believe whatever works best for them. I must tell you that i find your rhetorical question about republican arrogance and unwillingness to compromise right laughable. Uncompromising is this presidents hallmark characteristic. He never allowed republicans ANY voice in his signature ACA law and he never allowed them any voice in current events either when by virtue of constitutional delegation of power the House had every right to do what they did in this last episode. Obviously, there's much debate on the wisdom of their tactics and that will be made evident in due time but they were not acting like right wing extremists but rather dutifully trying to fulfill their roles .There are 2 phases to enacting such a sweeping entitlement law..passing it - then funding it. I understand the republicans heartburn myself but many do not.

I'm not sure laughable is the right word but, I find it strange that you would challenge the use of the word uncompromising when the ability to compromise within it's own ranks threatens the very foundation of the party. Extreme right wing Republicans seem all to eager to cast out those who do not conform. Perhaps I just don't understand the rhetoric but it seems pretty clear.

The greatest threat to the republican party is the quisling weak kneed establishment career politicians among their ranks who would rather not rock the boat because they love their gig but who lack the courage of conviction for what conservatism is. I WANT to see the foundation of the party rocked because the last thing republicans need to do is sell themselves as a pale shade of contrast to the left. They need more message discipline and courage to starkly differentiate themselves and their failure to do that has lead us to where we are now with people saying there's no difference in the parties and TBH theres not. THATS their biggest problem in a nutshell. Too many McConnells and McCains hanging around for life.

So you aren't willing to compromise?

[TitanTiger 20,572]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

:rolleyes:/>

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

No problem have at it. I haven't been listening to anyone but i see that didn't stop you from bashing my opinions on assumptions that I do. I never tried that sophomoric approach with you. I happen to have the ability to formulate an opinion by watching the game as its being played. if you're arguing that the mainstream media is not a sock puppet mouth piece for this administration I'd have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the actual events just their reporting of them. This president is all at once, in every situation, both the victor and the victim and has never been held accountable for anything no matter how obvious his ineptitude. Its always about those right wing extremists.. Please do...carry on, as will I!

Maybe it is the uncompromising, close minded arrogance of the right wing extremists that allows the media to portray the President as both victor and victim? Maybe it is the perception that the extreme right wing would rather destroy him (politically) than compromise with him or counsel him?

Maybe but maybe not. I guess one is entitled to believe whatever works best for them. I must tell you that i find your rhetorical question about republican arrogance and unwillingness to compromise right laughable. Uncompromising is this presidents hallmark characteristic. He never allowed republicans ANY voice in his signature ACA law and he never allowed them any voice in current events either when by virtue of constitutional delegation of power the House had every right to do what they did in this last episode. Obviously, there's much debate on the wisdom of their tactics and that will be made evident in due time but they were not acting like right wing extremists but rather dutifully trying to fulfill their roles .There are 2 phases to enacting such a sweeping entitlement law..passing it - then funding it. I understand the republicans heartburn myself but many do not.

I'm not sure laughable is the right word but, I find it strange that you would challenge the use of the word uncompromising when the ability to compromise within it's own ranks threatens the very foundation of the party. Extreme right wing Republicans seem all to eager to cast out those who do not conform. Perhaps I just don't understand the rhetoric but it seems pretty clear.

The greatest threat to the republican party is the quisling weak kneed establishment career politicians among their ranks who would rather not rock the boat because they love their gig but who lack the courage of conviction for what conservatism is. I WANT to see the foundation of the party rocked because the last thing republicans need to do is sell themselves as a pale shade of contrast to the left. They need more message discipline and courage to starkly differentiate themselves and their failure to do that has lead us to where we are now with people saying there's no difference in the parties and TBH theres not. THATS their biggest problem in a nutshell. Too many McConnells and McCains hanging around for life.

You do realize that there are many people who don't feel that the Tea Party represents "pure" conservatism, right? That they want the establishment, Rockafeller Republicans gone too, but they don't see the Ted Cruz brigade as the alternative to throw weight behind?

[telling tiger 156]

If you do not adapt the rhetoric to attract more people who do not like or understand the communication style, all you do is destroy the party and will have nothing but an extreme minority to fail at replacing it. I'm all for it. You are damn near there. Knock yourself out. One down, one to go.

[selias 2,398]

If you do not adapt the rhetoric to attract more people who do not like or understand the communication style, all you do is destroy the party and will have nothing but an extreme minority to fail at replacing it. I'm all for it. You are damn near there. Knock yourself out. One down, one to go.

Kill off both parties. They're both ruinous

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

If you do not adapt the rhetoric to attract more people who do not like or understand the communication style, all you do is destroy the party and will have nothing but an extreme minority to fail at replacing it. I'm all for it. You are damn near there. Knock yourself out. One down, one to go.

That's a long sentence that I have no idea what you are trying to say?

[telling tiger 156]

I'm not surprised by that at all.

[icanthearyou 4,465]

If you do not adapt the rhetoric to attract more people who do not like or understand the communication style, all you do is destroy the party and will have nothing but an extreme minority to fail at replacing it. I'm all for it. You are damn near there. Knock yourself out. One down, one to go.

Kill off both parties. They're both ruinous

As long as they view politics as a career and a business, rather than public service, you are correct. I don't want to kill them off. I just want to prevent them from selling influence. Our government should not be for sale. If we do not change that dynamic, the next party will be just as corrupt as either of the two we have now.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Titan, with all this discussion that began with articles you linked. I'm curious.........if you were a House Republican, what strategy would you have suggested taking after Obama and Reid said "no compromise"?

[TitanTiger 20,572]

Titan, with all this discussion that began with articles you linked. I'm curious.........if you were a House Republican, what strategy would you have suggested taking after Obama and Reid said "no compromise"?

Well, I don't know that I've formulated a comprehensive plan. Knowing exactly what to do doesn't preclude one from being able to spot a losing strategy when you see one though.

The problem the Republicans are running up against was mentioned in the article. They consistently misread the public's temperature based on the heated rhetoric they hear amongst their own. This is part of the problem with all the gerrymandering of Congressional districts that has occurred which makes most House races a foregone conclusion. If you are representing a sprawling district drawn up solely for the purpose of delivering an easy win for your party, you're not really hearing much in the way of opposing views. And you start to think the views so fervently fought for in your little hothouse are far more popular than they really are. But the truth is, the public voted in a bunch of folks in the Senate and House that supported Obamacare. They reelected a president who pushed it. They might have issues with this or that aspect of it, but they evidently don't hate it like you do.

So couple that fact -- and it is a fact, not an opinion -- with a tactic that makes hundreds of thousands of middle class workers miss paychecks, hurts thousands of small businesses whose livelihood intersects with government (private business near national parks, military bases, historic sites, etc) and inconveniences millions of others and you've got a recipe for disaster. Stevie Wonder could have seen that cluster**** coming a mile away. Even if you fully support the defunding aim, it was an act of colossal hubris to tie it to such an unpopular means of achieving it.

The Republicans are not speaking the language of the average guy. That is exemplified in this nugget from the other article I posted:

Senator Mike Lee introduced a family-friendly tax reform plan that would have cut taxes on working parents and improved the work incentives of parents below the earnings median (people who the establishment’s Mitt Romney referred to as parasites who would not take responsibility for their own lives). Lee and his colleague Ted Cruz then obliterated any chance for a sustained public discussion of this tax plan by their counterproductive shutdown strategy.

The folks who inexplicably thought this was a winning play cut off their nose to spite their face. When the Republicans figure out how to appeal to middle class folks that worry about stagnant wages, capricious health insurance companies, a continuing pattern of the rich getting richer while regular folks just try to tread water -- and to realize that simply saying "tax cuts" over and over again like a parrot isn't a plan -- they will be able to use those principles to make better decisions than they did this time around. If they don't, they will be decimated.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

:rolleyes:/>

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

No problem have at it. I haven't been listening to anyone but i see that didn't stop you from bashing my opinions on assumptions that I do. I never tried that sophomoric approach with you. I happen to have the ability to formulate an opinion by watching the game as its being played. if you're arguing that the mainstream media is not a sock puppet mouth piece for this administration I'd have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the actual events just their reporting of them. This president is all at once, in every situation, both the victor and the victim and has never been held accountable for anything no matter how obvious his ineptitude. Its always about those right wing extremists.. Please do...carry on, as will I!

Maybe it is the uncompromising, close minded arrogance of the right wing extremists that allows the media to portray the President as both victor and victim? Maybe it is the perception that the extreme right wing would rather destroy him (politically) than compromise with him or counsel him?

Maybe but maybe not. I guess one is entitled to believe whatever works best for them. I must tell you that i find your rhetorical question about republican arrogance and unwillingness to compromise right laughable. Uncompromising is this presidents hallmark characteristic. He never allowed republicans ANY voice in his signature ACA law and he never allowed them any voice in current events either when by virtue of constitutional delegation of power the House had every right to do what they did in this last episode. Obviously, there's much debate on the wisdom of their tactics and that will be made evident in due time but they were not acting like right wing extremists but rather dutifully trying to fulfill their roles .There are 2 phases to enacting such a sweeping entitlement law..passing it - then funding it. I understand the republicans heartburn myself but many do not.

I'm not sure laughable is the right word but, I find it strange that you would challenge the use of the word uncompromising when the ability to compromise within it's own ranks threatens the very foundation of the party. Extreme right wing Republicans seem all to eager to cast out those who do not conform. Perhaps I just don't understand the rhetoric but it seems pretty clear.

The greatest threat to the republican party is the quisling weak kneed establishment career politicians among their ranks who would rather not rock the boat because they love their gig but who lack the courage of conviction for what conservatism is. I WANT to see the foundation of the party rocked because the last thing republicans need to do is sell themselves as a pale shade of contrast to the left. They need more message discipline and courage to starkly differentiate themselves and their failure to do that has lead us to where we are now with people saying there's no difference in the parties and TBH theres not. THATS their biggest problem in a nutshell. Too many McConnells and McCains hanging around for life.

You do realize that there are many people who don't feel that the Tea Party represents "pure" conservatism, right? That they want the establishment, Rockafeller Republicans gone too, but they don't see the Ted Cruz brigade as the alternative to throw weight behind?

I have no idea what the Tea Party represents. My political opinions are NOT driven by anything the Tea Party may assert as their core values.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Titan, with all this discussion that began with articles you linked. I'm curious.........if you were a House Republican, what strategy would you have suggested taking after Obama and Reid said "no compromise"?

Well, I don't know that I've formulated a comprehensive plan. Knowing exactly what to do doesn't preclude one from being able to spot a losing strategy when you see one though.

The problem the Republicans are running up against was mentioned in the article. They consistently misread the public's temperature based on the heated rhetoric they hear amongst their own. This is part of the problem with all the gerrymandering of Congressional districts that has occurred which makes most House races a foregone conclusion. If you are representing a sprawling district drawn up solely for the purpose of delivering an easy win for your party, you're not really hearing much in the way of opposing views. And you start to think the views so fervently fought for in your little hothouse are far more popular than they really are. But the truth is, the public voted in a bunch of folks in the Senate and House that supported Obamacare. They reelected a president who pushed it. They might have issues with this or that aspect of it, but they evidently don't hate it like you do.

So couple that fact -- and it is a fact, not an opinion -- with a tactic that makes hundreds of thousands of middle class workers miss paychecks, hurts thousands of small businesses whose livelihood intersects with government (private business near national parks, military bases, historic sites, etc) and inconveniences millions of others and you've got a recipe for disaster. Stevie Wonder could have seen that cluster**** coming a mile away. Even if you fully support the defunding aim, it was an act of colossal hubris to tie it to such an unpopular means of achieving it.

The Republicans are not speaking the language of the average guy. That is exemplified in this nugget from the other article I posted:

Senator Mike Lee introduced a family-friendly tax reform plan that would have cut taxes on working parents and improved the work incentives of parents below the earnings median (people who the establishment’s Mitt Romney referred to as parasites who would not take responsibility for their own lives). Lee and his colleague Ted Cruz then obliterated any chance for a sustained public discussion of this tax plan by their counterproductive shutdown strategy.

The folks who inexplicably thought this was a winning play cut off their nose to spite their face. When the Republicans figure out how to appeal to middle class folks that worry about stagnant wages, capricious health insurance companies, a continuing pattern of the rich getting richer while regular folks just try to tread water -- and to realize that simply saying "tax cuts" over and over again like a parrot isn't a plan -- they will be able to use those principles to make better decisions than they did this time around. If they don't, they will be decimated.

I dont recall hearing anyone EVER say this was a politically expedient fight. Your position is contextually ALL predicated on the politics. Principle is worth fighting for but evidently you've been so swayed by the "pundits" you seem willing to believe this is the end of the republican party. LOL Its not. Your post speaks volumes about your true feelings. Thanks for posting I know exactly what Im dealing with now. You easily fall in among the quislings, unless of course, you're a liberal which seems to becoming more and more evident.

[TitanTiger 20,572]

I dont recall hearing anyone EVER say this was a politically expedient fight. Your position is contextually ALL predicated on the politics. Principle is worth fighting for but evidently you've been so swayed by the "pundits" you seem willing to believe this is the end of the republican party. LOL Its not. Your post speaks volumes about your true feelings. Thanks for posting I know exactly what Im dealing with now. You easily fall in among the quislings, unless of course, you're a liberal which seems to becoming more and more evident.

Fighting for principle with stupid means is even worse. You're taking an important thing you really want people to pay attention to and to see the same value in that you do and tying a millstone around its neck to watch it drown. It's akin to Christians who have this message of salvation in Christ but go out and spread it by screaming red-faced on street corners at people stopped at a traffic signal. You might be doing it for the right reasons, but the means you've chosen completely obscure the message.

[channonc 466]

Every issue with this faction of the Republican Party is one of principle and conviction. If you are convicted about everything, then you are convicted about nothing.

And I still don't understand the complete rage and venom being spewed about everything. Our government not perfect, but we should all work together to try to make it work for everyone. If there was less anger and hatred and more people working together, I think all Americans would benefit.

[telling tiger 156]

Well, there is officially the first time I've even seen anyone call Titan a liberal, lol.

[TheBlueVue 177]

I dont recall hearing anyone EVER say this was a politically expedient fight. Your position is contextually ALL predicated on the politics. Principle is worth fighting for but evidently you've been so swayed by the "pundits" you seem willing to believe this is the end of the republican party. LOL Its not. Your post speaks volumes about your true feelings. Thanks for posting I know exactly what Im dealing with now. You easily fall in among the quislings, unless of course, you're a liberal which seems to becoming more and more evident.

Fighting for principle with stupid means is even worse. You're taking an important thing you really want people to pay attention to and to see the same value in that you do and tying a millstone around its neck to watch it drown. It's akin to Christians who have this message of salvation in Christ but go out and spread it by screaming red-faced on street corners at people stopped at a traffic signal. You might be doing it for the right reasons, but the means you've chosen completely obscure the message.

Your characterizations and analogies are so over the top its ridiculous. They didn't win this battle, that much we can agree on. As far as its effects going forward our opinions sharply diverge.

[TitanTiger 20,572]

Well, there is officially the first time I've even seen anyone call Titan a liberal, lol.

Right? Holy crap.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Well, there is officially the first time I've even seen anyone call Titan a liberal, lol.

I dont know and dont care but he's sure selling the other side as hard as he can and thats fine

[TitanTiger 20,572]

I dont recall hearing anyone EVER say this was a politically expedient fight. Your position is contextually ALL predicated on the politics. Principle is worth fighting for but evidently you've been so swayed by the "pundits" you seem willing to believe this is the end of the republican party. LOL Its not. Your post speaks volumes about your true feelings. Thanks for posting I know exactly what Im dealing with now. You easily fall in among the quislings, unless of course, you're a liberal which seems to becoming more and more evident.

Fighting for principle with stupid means is even worse. You're taking an important thing you really want people to pay attention to and to see the same value in that you do and tying a millstone around its neck to watch it drown. It's akin to Christians who have this message of salvation in Christ but go out and spread it by screaming red-faced on street corners at people stopped at a traffic signal. You might be doing it for the right reasons, but the means you've chosen completely obscure the message.

Your characterizations and analogies are so over the top its ridiculous. They didn't win this battle, that much we can agree on. As far as its effects going forward our opinions sharply diverge.

It's not over the top. It's fairly tame and straight-forward. If you really care about a certain principle and want it to gain greater acceptance and understanding, don't purposely choose a means of spreading it that is all but guaranteed to make people upset and angry. That's just common walking-around sense.

[homersapien 11,633]

Titan, with all this discussion that began with articles you linked. I'm curious.........if you were a House Republican, what strategy would you have suggested taking after Obama and Reid said "no compromise"?

Well, I don't know that I've formulated a comprehensive plan. Knowing exactly what to do doesn't preclude one from being able to spot a losing strategy when you see one though.

The problem the Republicans are running up against was mentioned in the article. They consistently misread the public's temperature based on the heated rhetoric they hear amongst their own. This is part of the problem with all the gerrymandering of Congressional districts that has occurred which makes most House races a foregone conclusion. If you are representing a sprawling district drawn up solely for the purpose of delivering an easy win for your party, you're not really hearing much in the way of opposing views. And you start to think the views so fervently fought for in your little hothouse are far more popular than they really are. But the truth is, the public voted in a bunch of folks in the Senate and House that supported Obamacare. They reelected a president who pushed it. They might have issues with this or that aspect of it, but they evidently don't hate it like you do.

So couple that fact -- and it is a fact, not an opinion -- with a tactic that makes hundreds of thousands of middle class workers miss paychecks, hurts thousands of small businesses whose livelihood intersects with government (private business near national parks, military bases, historic sites, etc) and inconveniences millions of others and you've got a recipe for disaster. Stevie Wonder could have seen that cluster**** coming a mile away. Even if you fully support the defunding aim, it was an act of colossal hubris to tie it to such an unpopular means of achieving it.

The Republicans are not speaking the language of the average guy. That is exemplified in this nugget from the other article I posted:

Senator Mike Lee introduced a family-friendly tax reform plan that would have cut taxes on working parents and improved the work incentives of parents below the earnings median (people who the establishment’s Mitt Romney referred to as parasites who would not take responsibility for their own lives). Lee and his colleague Ted Cruz then obliterated any chance for a sustained public discussion of this tax plan by their counterproductive shutdown strategy.

The folks who inexplicably thought this was a winning play cut off their nose to spite their face. When the Republicans figure out how to appeal to middle class folks that worry about stagnant wages, capricious health insurance companies, a continuing pattern of the rich getting richer while regular folks just try to tread water -- and to realize that simply saying "tax cuts" over and over again like a parrot isn't a plan -- they will be able to use those principles to make better decisions than they did this time around. If they don't, they will be decimated.

Again, extremely well stated. Thanks for taking the time.

As someone who lives in arguably the most "conservative" county in the most "conservative" state I can attest to the "echo-chamber" that amplifies and even allows radical thinking.

(And I put "conservative" in quotes to acknowledge the fact the Tea Party-ers are not conservative at all. They are reactionary.)

I've never been to one of their local rallys but I do listen to talk radio. Some of the stuff you hear is unbelievable. A lot of it is directed toward perceived establishment RINOs like Lindsey Graham. They have replaced most of our sensible representatives (like Bob Inglis) with hard liners with more ambition than brains. And our ex Senator DeMint is part of the problem at the Heritage Foundation.

This country needs a serious opposition party. Either party disintegrating and staying that way for long is not good for the country.

Considering their heritage, I am pulling for the GOP to re-form itself as a viable center right party.

For that to happen, the TP faction will have to split off or dwindle to irrelevancy. Unfortunately it is being fed by billionaire backers and will be hard to die.

[TitanTiger 20,572]

Well, there is officially the first time I've even seen anyone call Titan a liberal, lol.

I dont know and dont care but he's sure selling the other side as hard as he can and thats fine

That's because your prism seemingly only allows you to see one side or the other. Your side is right and the other side, by default, is wrong. And any recognition that maybe the paradigm that tells you what the sides are in the first place is mis-calibrated or that sometimes the "other side" has a good point or that "our side" screwed up is sedition.

[icanthearyou 4,465]

Titan, with all this discussion that began with articles you linked. I'm curious.........if you were a House Republican, what strategy would you have suggested taking after Obama and Reid said "no compromise"?

Well, I don't know that I've formulated a comprehensive plan. Knowing exactly what to do doesn't preclude one from being able to spot a losing strategy when you see one though.

The problem the Republicans are running up against was mentioned in the article. They consistently misread the public's temperature based on the heated rhetoric they hear amongst their own. This is part of the problem with all the gerrymandering of Congressional districts that has occurred which makes most House races a foregone conclusion. If you are representing a sprawling district drawn up solely for the purpose of delivering an easy win for your party, you're not really hearing much in the way of opposing views. And you start to think the views so fervently fought for in your little hothouse are far more popular than they really are. But the truth is, the public voted in a bunch of folks in the Senate and House that supported Obamacare. They reelected a president who pushed it. They might have issues with this or that aspect of it, but they evidently don't hate it like you do.

So couple that fact -- and it is a fact, not an opinion -- with a tactic that makes hundreds of thousands of middle class workers miss paychecks, hurts thousands of small businesses whose livelihood intersects with government (private business near national parks, military bases, historic sites, etc) and inconveniences millions of others and you've got a recipe for disaster. Stevie Wonder could have seen that cluster**** coming a mile away. Even if you fully support the defunding aim, it was an act of colossal hubris to tie it to such an unpopular means of achieving it.

The Republicans are not speaking the language of the average guy. That is exemplified in this nugget from the other article I posted:

Senator Mike Lee introduced a family-friendly tax reform plan that would have cut taxes on working parents and improved the work incentives of parents below the earnings median (people who the establishment’s Mitt Romney referred to as parasites who would not take responsibility for their own lives). Lee and his colleague Ted Cruz then obliterated any chance for a sustained public discussion of this tax plan by their counterproductive shutdown strategy.

The folks who inexplicably thought this was a winning play cut off their nose to spite their face. When the Republicans figure out how to appeal to middle class folks that worry about stagnant wages, capricious health insurance companies, a continuing pattern of the rich getting richer while regular folks just try to tread water -- and to realize that simply saying "tax cuts" over and over again like a parrot isn't a plan -- they will be able to use those principles to make better decisions than they did this time around. If they don't, they will be decimated.

I dont recall hearing anyone EVER say this was a politically expedient fight. Your position is contextually ALL predicated on the politics. Principle is worth fighting for but evidently you've been so swayed by the "pundits" you seem willing to believe this is the end of the republican party. LOL Its not. Your post speaks volumes about your true feelings. Thanks for posting I know exactly what Im dealing with now. You easily fall in among the quislings, unless of course, you're a liberal which seems to becoming more and more evident.

Everyone but you is a liberal. All one has to do, is disagree with you in the least and they immediately become a vile, evil, liberal (in your world). You are destined to be a party of one.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Every issue with this faction of the Republican Party is one of principle and conviction. If you are convicted about everything, then you are convicted about nothing.

And I still don't understand the complete rage and venom being spewed about everything. Our government not perfect, but we should all work together to try to make it work for everyone. If there was less anger and hatred and more people working together, I think all Americans would benefit.

I agree but exactly where is most of the vitriol coming from. Republicans never called anyone extortionists, terrorists with bombs strapped to their chests, yadayadayada. Anytime anyone disagrees with this administration they are villified and demonized with such reckless abandon clearly they're following the Saul Alinskey playbook.

[TheBlueVue 177]

I dont recall hearing anyone EVER say this was a politically expedient fight. Your position is contextually ALL predicated on the politics. Principle is worth fighting for but evidently you've been so swayed by the "pundits" you seem willing to believe this is the end of the republican party. LOL Its not. Your post speaks volumes about your true feelings. Thanks for posting I know exactly what Im dealing with now. You easily fall in among the quislings, unless of course, you're a liberal which seems to becoming more and more evident.

Fighting for principle with stupid means is even worse. You're taking an important thing you really want people to pay attention to and to see the same value in that you do and tying a millstone around its neck to watch it drown. It's akin to Christians who have this message of salvation in Christ but go out and spread it by screaming red-faced on street corners at people stopped at a traffic signal. You might be doing it for the right reasons, but the means you've chosen completely obscure the message.

Your characterizations and analogies are so over the top its ridiculous. They didn't win this battle, that much we can agree on. As far as its effects going forward our opinions sharply diverge.

It's not over the top. It's fairly tame and straight-forward. If you really care about a certain principle and want it to gain greater acceptance and understanding, don't purposely choose a means of spreading it that is all but guaranteed to make people upset and angry. That's just common walking-around sense.

OK. I wish they had been twice as aggressive and not capitulated. I have that right and I didn't get that idea from any radio or TV personality so you can let that accusation go.