Confusing politics with religion

[TitanTiger 20,542]

Confusing Politics With Religion

By Rod Dreher • October 17, 2013, 7:43 AM

Ross Douthat has been heroically measured in his assessment of the GOP’s populists, pointing out that they may be morons on tactics, but they often have better policy ideas than the Republican regulars. Now that the idiotic, entirely avoidable crisis is over, he says that Lessons Had Better Be Learned if the GOP is going to save itself from itself. Excerpt:

However you slice and dice the history, the strategery, and the underlying issues, the decision to live with a government shutdown for an extended period of time — inflicting modest-but-real harm on the economy, needlessly disrupting the lives and paychecks of many thousands of hardworking people, and further tarnishing the Republican Party’s already not-exactly-shiny image — in pursuit of obviously,

obviously

unattainable goals was not a normal political blunder by a normally-functioning political party. It was an irresponsible, dysfunctional and deeply pointless act, carried out by a party that on the evidence of the last few weeks shouldn’t be trusted with the management of a banana stand, let alone the House of Representatives.

This means that

the still-ongoing intra-conservative debate

over the shutdown’s wisdom is not, I’m sorry, the kind of case where reasonable people can differ on the merits and have good-faith arguments and ultimately agree to disagree.

There was no argument for the shutdown itself that a person unblindered by political fantasies should be obliged to respect, no plausible alternative world in which it could have led to any outcome besides self-inflicted political damage followed by legislative defeat, and no epitaph that should be written for its instigators’ planning and execution except: “These guys deserved to lose.”

Yeah you right. I’m always fascinated by the question of how we know what we know, and was thinking this morning about what kind of mind sees what just happened as either a victory, or a defeat that happened not because the cause was hopeless, but because the cause was betrayed, its noble defenders stabbed in the back by faithless RINO traitors. Because that is the emerging narrative within the right-wing bubble.

Can the Tea Partiers’ beliefs be falsified? I don’t think they can be. I mean, is there any evidence that could convince them that the fault here lies with themselves, in the way they conceive politics, and in the way they behaved? It sure doesn’t look like it. In that sense, they think of politics as a kind of religion. It’s not for nothing that the hardcore House members stood together and sang “Amazing Grace” as the impossibility of their position became ever clearer. They really do bring a religious zealotry to politics.

Let me hasten to say that I’m not endorsing the “Christianist” meme, which I find far too reductive, among other things. Besides, many of the Tea Partiers and fellow travelers are not motivated by religious faith, but by a religious-like zeal for their political ideology. It was like this on the Right before the advent of the Tea Party. There has long been a sense on the Right that the movement must be vigilant against the backsliders and compromisers, who will Betray True Conservatism if you give them the chance. Again, the religious mindset: politics as a purity test. In this worldview, a politician who compromises sells out the True Faith — and faith, by definition, does not depend on empirical observation to justify itself.

I have had conversations in recent years with fellow conservatives who simply could not bring themselves to face the failures of George W. Bush — failures that were also the fault of all those who supported him (I voted for him twice). Similarly, I have had conversations with liberal friends who cannot see any fault in Barack Obama. When I point out that he has done the same things that caused them to condemn Bush, they just blink and say some version of, “Well, he must have his reasons, and besides, have you seen how crazy the Republicans are?” So the “politics as religion” thing is not confined to the Right.

But it does dominate the Right today in a way that it does not affect the Left. As Douthat points out, if the Republicans fail to confront this epistemic problem in their own ranks, the disaster that the party’s hardline led it into will be repeated. A good way to start is to return to the principle that conservatism entails a rejection of ideology. Here’s Russell Kirk, on the “errors of ideology.”:

Kenneth Minogue, in his recent book

Alien Powers: the Pure Theory of Ideology

,uses the word “to denote any doctrine which presents the hidden and saving truth about the world in the form of social analysis. It is a feature of all such doctrines to incorporate a general theory of the mistakes of everybody else.” That “hidden and saving truth” is a fraud—a complex of contrived falsifying “myths”, disguised as history, about the society we have inherited.

Religion requires us to believe the impossible; that’s what makes it religion. Politics is the art of the possible; that’s why it is not religion.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/confusing-politics-with-religion

More from Douthat. He absolutely nails it:

And it’s important for conservatives and Republicans to recognize this, and remember it, because what just happened can happen again, and next time the consequences may be more severe. The mentality that drove the shutdown — a toxic combination of tactical irrationality and the elevation of that irrationality into a True Conservative ™ litmus test — may have less influence in next year’s Beltway negotiations than it did this time around, thanks to the way this has ended for the defunders after John Boehner gave them pretty much all the rope that they’d been asking for. But just turn on talk radio or browse RedState or look at Ted Cruz’s approval ratings with Tea Partiers and you’ll see how potent this mentality remains, how quickly it could resurface, and how easily Republican politics and American governance alike could be warped by it in the future.

So for undeluded conservatives of all persuasions, lessons must be learned. If the party’s populists want to shape and redefine and ultimately remake the party, they can’t pull this kind of stunt again. If the party’s leadership wants to actually lead, whether within the G.O.P. or in the country at large, they can’t let this kind of stunt be pulled again. That’s the only way in which this pointless-seeming exercise could turn out to have some sort of point: If it’s long remembered, by its proponents and their enablers alike, as the utter folly that it was.

Honestly, were people fond of the Tea Party approach on this so utterly deluded as to think this was going to end any other way?

[jj3jordan 2,078]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

[selias 2,398]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

1) That started happening long before Obama took office

2) Obama's not a socialist. I just think he hates the USA

3) I'd prefer if our politicians were athiests. I prefer to not be governed by religious nosy nellies

4) Yeah, you got me on the health care. I'm just glad I've got a great employer

[TitanTiger 20,542]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

If this stunt is an example of the level of tactical thinking on the GOP side going forward, you will be getting exactly the country you fear in short order because there won't be any GOP left in Congress or the WH for years to come.

[TheBlueVue 177]

I dont agree that guy nailed squat. It was a fight fought on principle and I dont think the republicans did a thing wrong. It might have been an unwinnable fight but if republican congressmen are only going to fight for the principles they think they can win on they should all pack their s*** and go home. I am pretty weary of people breaking down the efforts of the few who were elected to do what they did. The biggest problem within the republican party is that there are too many who are too comfortable with the status quo and are nothing themselves but governing elites. I cant wait til McCain and McConnell lose reelection because those 2 are going to be the next Strom Thurmonds and IMO are a BIG part of the republican problem. No wonder McConnell was all for this "deal" his state was awarded $2Billion dollars for a dam that is projected to only cost $800,000. he's just another pork fed status quo career politician and i cant wait to get rid of him

[selias 2,398]

The problem lies at the feet of a two party system. The difference between Dems & Reps is microscopic. They both want your money and to tell you how to live. The difference is Reps seem to want a theocracy and Dems seem to want a socialist utopia

[TheBlueVue 177]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

If this stunt is an example of the level of tactical thinking on the GOP side going forward, you will be getting exactly the country you fear in short order because there won't be any GOP left in Congress or the WH for years to come.

I disagree sir. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I wont argue it but I defiintely disagree. Unless you have seen the future your speculations about the demise of the republican party is simply your opinion. This fight is not lost and it is not over by a long shot. Yeah, the left won this battle. The war is far from being decided just yet

[TheBlueVue 177]

The problem lies at the feet of a two party system. The difference between Dems & Reps is microscopic. They both want your money and to tell you how to live. The difference is Reps seem to want a theocracy and Dems seem to want a socialist utopia

This is arguably the most ridiculous opinion I have ever seen. i do agree that there are far too many weak kneed quisling republicans but the republican party's philosophy of governance is entirely disparate and diametrically opposed to the left's.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

If this stunt is an example of the level of tactical thinking on the GOP side going forward, you will be getting exactly the country you fear in short order because there won't be any GOP left in Congress or the WH for years to come.

I disagree sir. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I wont argue it but I defiintely disagree. Unless you have seen the future your speculations about the demise of the republican party is simply your opinion. This fight is not lost and it is not over by a long shot. Yeah, the left won this battle. The war is far from being decided just yet

I didn't say the fight was lost. Conservative views can still win the big arguments in the marketplace of ideas.

HOWEVER, if this is an example of the high-level strategery and tactics they plan to use, you might as well go live in a cave somewhere off the grid for the next 10-20 years because the idiots pushing this and delusional enough to think it will work will cripple the Republicans for at least that long.

[selias 2,398]

The problem lies at the feet of a two party system. The difference between Dems & Reps is microscopic. They both want your money and to tell you how to live. The difference is Reps seem to want a theocracy and Dems seem to want a socialist utopia

This is arguably the most ridiculous opinion I have ever seen. i do agree that there are far too many weak kneed quisling republicans but their philosophy of governance is entirely disparate and diametrically opposed to the left's.

Not really. Take a step back and be objective. Reps want to run your life just as much as the Dems do. How they want to run it is just a matter of semantics.

[TheBlueVue 177]

All the pundits continue to criticize the republicans with the rhetorical question.."What was their end game?" They were stupid they had no end game. I get so sick of the catch phrases and oversimplifications that suck people in. A better question, in my view, is, what is the end game of this govt's current fiscal insanity? I'll tell you what it is...it's Detroit on a national scale ladies and gentlemen. Unless this utterly unrestrained govt leviathan's appetite for recklessly spending money the country simply does not have, is reigned in, the time will arrive much more quickly than you may think when the headlines will read...The USA in lock step with Greece.

[TheBlueVue 177]

The problem lies at the feet of a two party system. The difference between Dems & Reps is microscopic. They both want your money and to tell you how to live. The difference is Reps seem to want a theocracy and Dems seem to want a socialist utopia

This is arguably the most ridiculous opinion I have ever seen. i do agree that there are far too many weak kneed quisling republicans but their philosophy of governance is entirely disparate and diametrically opposed to the left's.

Not really. Take a step back and be objective. Reps want to run your life just as much as the Dems do. How they want to run it is just a matter of semantics.

I disagree, however, I do strongly agree that there are far to many quisling republicans and therein is what allows that to be the impression

[TheBlueVue 177]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

If this stunt is an example of the level of tactical thinking on the GOP side going forward, you will be getting exactly the country you fear in short order because there won't be any GOP left in Congress or the WH for years to come.

I disagree sir. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I wont argue it but I defiintely disagree. Unless you have seen the future your speculations about the demise of the republican party is simply your opinion. This fight is not lost and it is not over by a long shot. Yeah, the left won this battle. The war is far from being decided just yet

I didn't say the fight was lost. Conservative views can still win the big arguments in the marketplace of ideas.

HOWEVER, if this is an example of the high-level strategery and tactics they plan to use, you might as well go live in a cave somewhere off the grid for the next 10-20 years because the idiots pushing this and delusional enough to think it will work will cripple the Republicans for at least that long.

I believe your assumptions are false. This is the beginning of the fight against the status quo. I agree it's results were quite inauspicious but the ruling elite are not going to go quietly without a protracted fight. This fight had to start somewhere and the problem is there are too many in the republican party who didn't want to be a part of it. They've grown too comfortable and complacent with the Washington "establishment" and like it. They intend to fight for their turf too. That is why the republicans have no message discipline...there are factions within it who would rather remain quiet and not rock the boat. Im for turning the boat over because it has too many holes in it and its about to sink anyway.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

If this stunt is an example of the level of tactical thinking on the GOP side going forward, you will be getting exactly the country you fear in short order because there won't be any GOP left in Congress or the WH for years to come.

I disagree sir. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I wont argue it but I defiintely disagree. Unless you have seen the future your speculations about the demise of the republican party is simply your opinion. This fight is not lost and it is not over by a long shot. Yeah, the left won this battle. The war is far from being decided just yet

I didn't say the fight was lost. Conservative views can still win the big arguments in the marketplace of ideas.

HOWEVER, if this is an example of the high-level strategery and tactics they plan to use, you might as well go live in a cave somewhere off the grid for the next 10-20 years because the idiots pushing this and delusional enough to think it will work will cripple the Republicans for at least that long.

I believe your assumptions are false. This is the beginning of the fight against the status quo. I agree it's results were quite inauspicious but the ruling elite are not going to go quietly without a protracted fight. This fight had to start somewhere and the problem is there are too many in the republican party who didn't want to be a part of it. They've grown too comfortable and complacent with the Washington scene and like it. They intend to fight for their turf too. That is why the republicans have no message discipline...there are factions within it who would rather remain quiet and not rock the boat. Im for turning to boat over because it has too many holes in it and its about to sink anyway.

Then you are as delusional as they are. This was a fool's errand. The dumbest tactic that anyone with a hint of objectivity and foresight could have seen ending badly for the GOP. But they chose the tactic anyway. Complete idiocy.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

If this stunt is an example of the level of tactical thinking on the GOP side going forward, you will be getting exactly the country you fear in short order because there won't be any GOP left in Congress or the WH for years to come.

I disagree sir. You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I wont argue it but I defiintely disagree. Unless you have seen the future your speculations about the demise of the republican party is simply your opinion. This fight is not lost and it is not over by a long shot. Yeah, the left won this battle. The war is far from being decided just yet

I didn't say the fight was lost. Conservative views can still win the big arguments in the marketplace of ideas.

HOWEVER, if this is an example of the high-level strategery and tactics they plan to use, you might as well go live in a cave somewhere off the grid for the next 10-20 years because the idiots pushing this and delusional enough to think it will work will cripple the Republicans for at least that long.

I believe your assumptions are false. This is the beginning of the fight against the status quo. I agree it's results were quite inauspicious but the ruling elite are not going to go quietly without a protracted fight. This fight had to start somewhere and the problem is there are too many in the republican party who didn't want to be a part of it. They've grown too comfortable and complacent with the Washington scene and like it. They intend to fight for their turf too. That is why the republicans have no message discipline...there are factions within it who would rather remain quiet and not rock the boat. Im for turning to boat over because it has too many holes in it and its about to sink anyway.

Then you are as delusional as they are. This was a fool's errand. The dumbest tactic that anyone with a hint of objectivity and foresight could have seen ending badly for the GOP. But they chose the tactic anyway. Complete idiocy.

Yeah, I see you've caved to the conventional wisdom with "fool's errand" analogy. That's a popular sock puppet media metaphor. Im sorry but it seems to me you dont understand what this is all about but hey, thats just my opinion. I have no problem with yours because I dont really care what you think. We'll see whose right over the longer term.

[TitanTiger 20,542]

Yeah, I see you've caved to the conventional wisdom with "fool's errand" analogy. That's a popular sock puppet media metaphor.

And I can see that by using words like "caved" and "sock puppet media", you've ingested the meme inside the Tea Party/talk radio bubble that insists the tactic didn't fail, it could only be failed. It only didn't work because you were betrayed by the RINOs. Have another cup of the kool-aid.

Im sorry but it seems to me you dont understand what this is all about but hey, thats just my opinion. I have no problem with yours because I dont really care what you think. We'll see whose right over the longer term.

I totally get what it's about. I also completely disagree that this will be anything but long-term disaster for conservatives.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Yeah, I see you've caved to the conventional wisdom with "fool's errand" analogy. That's a popular sock puppet media metaphor.

And I can see that by using words like "caved" and "sock puppet media", you've ingested the meme inside the Tea Party/talk radio bubble that insists the tactic didn't fail, it could only be failed. It only didn't work because you were betrayed by the RINOs. Have another cup of the kool-aid.

Im sorry but it seems to me you dont understand what this is all about but hey, thats just my opinion. I have no problem with yours because I dont really care what you think. We'll see whose right over the longer term.

I totally get what it's about. I also completely disagree that this will be anything but long-term disaster for conservatives.

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation? I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do. Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty. . You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you. Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

[autigeremt 6,776]

The problem lies at the feet of a two party system. The difference between Dems & Reps is microscopic. They both want your money and to tell you how to live. The difference is Reps seem to want a theocracy and Dems seem to want a socialist utopia

Well stated. One day the Libertarian will prevail. I hope!

[TitanTiger 20,542]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

[TheBlueVue 177]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

No problem have at it. I haven't been listening to anyone but i see that didn't stop you from bashing my opinions on assumptions that I do. I never tried that sophomoric approach with you. I happen to have the ability to formulate an opinion by watching the game as its being played. if you're arguing that the mainstream media is not a sock puppet mouth piece for this administration I'd have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the actual events just their reporting of them. This president is all at once, in every situation, both the victor and the victim and has never been held accountable for anything no matter how obvious his ineptitude. Its always about those right wing extremists.. Please do...carry on, as will I!

[TitanTiger 20,542]

More spot-on analysis for people who aren't wearing their blinders.

Republican donors, consultants, and lobbyists are deeply unhappy with the government shutdown and debt ceiling strategy being pursued by Tea Party-affiliated conservatives like Ted Cruz and Mike Lee. Their fear—that it is damaging the Republican party and threatening the economy while having no hope of achieving its original goal of defunding Obamacare—is probably correct. But things are worse yet, for the tactical error of the Tea Party Republicans is only one such mistake made by Republicans in the aftermath of the disastrous 2012 election.

Both the Republican establishment and the Republican insurgents have responded to their defeat by doubling down on their illusions and pointing fingers at each other. What neither side seems able to acknowledge is that they need each other. Even together, the establishment and the insurgents are a minority (and a shrinking minority) of the country. The two sides need to agree on a program that subordinates their particular obsessions to the need to win over persuadable voters.

The political and intellectual errors of the Republican insurgents are more obtrusive at the moment. Senator Mike Lee introduced a family-friendly tax reform plan that would have cut taxes on working parents and improved the work incentives of parents below the earnings median (people who the establishment’s Mitt Romney referred to as parasites who would not take responsibility for their own lives). Lee and his colleague Ted Cruz then obliterated any chance for a sustained public discussion of this tax plan by their counterproductive shutdown strategy.

The combination of hysteria and grandiosity of the shutdown strategy can be seen in the rhetoric of Ted Cruz. Cruz argued that Obamacare had to be defunded by January 1, 2014 or people would become addicted to the “sugar” of Obamacare’s health insurance subsidies. Yet the idea that the public would become addicted to Obamacare was unlikely given Obamacare’s “sticker shock,” even with the subsidies.

But Cruz made an even bigger mistake as to public opinion. In his famous Obamacare speech, Cruz noted that the Senate was not “listening to the people” by refusing to defund Obamacare. Obamacare is indeed unpopular according to the opinion polls, but we should keep in mind some more facts about the people. The people gave President Obama an almost five million popular vote plurality. The people elected Democrats (or Democrat-aligned independents) to twenty-five of the thirty-three Senate seats contested in 2012. The people gave the Democrats a more than one million popular vote plurality in the House of Representatives even as district residency patterns gave the Republicans a House majority. While we are at it, the same “people” who disapprove of Obamacare also disapprove of Cruz’s shutdown strategy.

Ted Cruz’s strategy was to have “millions” of Americans rise up against Obamacare and intimidate Congress into voting to defund the law. Cruz’s strategy didn’t not take into account the intensity of that opposition. Many who had notionally opposed Obamacare voted for Obamacare-supporting politicians in the last election. They might be willing to trade up to a better law, but they were not willing to shut down the government over the issue. When Ted Cruz claimed to be standing up for the people in the Obamacare defunding fight, he sounded a bit like left-wing 1980s college students who would chant “The People, United, Will Never Be Defeated” even as Ronald Reagan won a landslide reelection.

The Republican establishment has better contacts within the mainstream media than Cruz and Lee, so the self-deceptions of the establishment are not as well known to a general audience. The establishment responded to the 2012 election by producing an autopsy with some interesting suggestions. The autopsy suggested that Republicans support “comprehensive immigration reform” and the Republican members of the Gang of Eight duly produced an immigration bill that would sharply increase low-skill immigration even though that is the opposite of what the majority of the public wants. That is a strange outreach strategy for a party that needs more rather than fewer votes.

The establishment’s autopsy also suggested that Republicans should be “inclusive and welcoming” on social issues. As if recent Republican presidential candidates have disdained the support of social liberal-leaning voters or made a point of discussing their social policy views to general audiences. The implication of the establishment’s autopsy was that while the establishment might have to accept candidates with conservative social policy views, those views should only to be articulated at Values Voters Summits that most people will never see and platform statements that most people will never read.

The autopsy curiously chose to leave out one important fact of the 2012 election. According to the 2012 exit poll, 53 percent of the voters felt that Republican (and establishment) presidential candidate Mitt Romney’s policies would primarily benefit the rich. This should hardly be a surprise given the Romney campaign’s tax plan that was oriented to benefitting high-earners, the Romney campaign’s constant references to the high-earners who “built that” and Romney’s famously expressed contempt for the 47 percent who did not have a net income tax liability (a comment that Romney made to an audience of wealthy donors).

The Republican establishment has not learned from the mistakes of 2012. In the course of shilling for the establishment’s goal of increased low-skill immigration, a Marco Rubio aide dismissed unemployed Americans as incompetents who “can’t cut it.” It takes willful blindness to think that the Republican party of 2012 emphasized the social issues. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan only discussed the social issues when asked. It was the Democrats who ran an aggressive social issues campaign, and it was the lack of a Republican social policy message that allowed them and their media allies to define the social policy debate as whether conception can result from rape.

The Republican establishment and Tea Party insurgents would do well to face certain realities. Mitt Romney did not lose because he talked too much about social issues. Rural working-class white voters did not stay home because Republicans would not shut down the federal government until President Obama conceded to the repeal of Obamacare.

Both the Republican establishment and Tea Party insurgents need to give up some of their priorities. The establishment needs to get over its lack of interest in the concerns of the middle-class, its contempt for struggling low-skill workers, and its refusal to recognize that the social issues extremism of the Democrats is an unexploited weakness of the opposition. The Tea Party insurgents need to understand that for many persuadables, it is not enough to oppose Obamacare and support spending cuts. Persuadable voters have legitimate concerns about health care coverage and stagnant wages. If conservatives cannot offer free market and limited government policies to address those concerns, then persuadable voters will continue to either stay home or vote for the Democrats. The good news is that conservative policy writers have produced an agenda to deal with the health care and wage concerns of persuadable Americans. To his great credit, Mike Lee adopted part of this middle-class and family-oriented conservative agenda. It is time Senator Lee went back to it, and it is overdue for the Republican establishment to join him.

http://www.firstthin...t-and-tea-party

[icanthearyou 4,464]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

:rolleyes:/>

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

No problem have at it. I haven't been listening to anyone but i see that didn't stop you from bashing my opinions on assumptions that I do. I never tried that sophomoric approach with you. I happen to have the ability to formulate an opinion by watching the game as its being played. if you're arguing that the mainstream media is not a sock puppet mouth piece for this administration I'd have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the actual events just their reporting of them. This president is all at once, in every situation, both the victor and the victim and has never been held accountable for anything no matter how obvious his ineptitude. Its always about those right wing extremists.. Please do...carry on, as will I!

Maybe it is the uncompromising, close minded arrogance of the right wing extremists that allows the media to portray the President as both victor and victim? Maybe it is the perception that the extreme right wing would rather destroy him (politically) than compromise with him or counsel him?

[TheBlueVue 177]

Well given your views and the "nothing less than a long term disaster for republicans" opinion, why are we having this conversation?

Because it's a politics forum. And you aren't the only person I was opening up this conversation with.

I disagree with you completely but must congratulate you on your roll of false assumptions. You're batting a 1000 and thats not an easy thing to do.

:rolleyes:/>

Just to be clear, I don't listen to talk radio and never have, thus, I have no idea what you're referring to as "memes" inside the TeaParty.

The people you listen to do.

You seem a little testy and frankly argumentative about my disagreements with you.

I'm testy with people who repeatedly refuse to realize the fatal flaws in their thinking and tactics that end up impacting all conservatives, not just the ones in their particular subculture of the GOP.

Im willing to allow you your opinions, Im simply expressing mine but they seem to bother you a good bit. Im not trying to sell you a damn thing but we clearly see things through an entirely different lens and Im fine with that buts there's no way I could possibly disagree with your assessment any more in terms of what this will mean to the republican party going forward..

Great. We disagree. If you don't mind, I'll continue to talk about it with others.

No problem have at it. I haven't been listening to anyone but i see that didn't stop you from bashing my opinions on assumptions that I do. I never tried that sophomoric approach with you. I happen to have the ability to formulate an opinion by watching the game as its being played. if you're arguing that the mainstream media is not a sock puppet mouth piece for this administration I'd have to say you haven't been paying much attention to the actual events just their reporting of them. This president is all at once, in every situation, both the victor and the victim and has never been held accountable for anything no matter how obvious his ineptitude. Its always about those right wing extremists.. Please do...carry on, as will I!

Maybe it is the uncompromising, close minded arrogance of the right wing extremists that allows the media to portray the President as both victor and victim? Maybe it is the perception that the extreme right wing would rather destroy him (politically) than compromise with him or counsel him?

Maybe but maybe not. I guess one is entitled to believe whatever works best for them. I must tell you that i find your rhetorical question about republican arrogance and unwillingness to compromise right laughable. Uncompromising is this presidents hallmark characteristic. He never allowed republicans ANY voice in his signature ACA law and he never allowed them any voice in current events either when by virtue of constitutional delegation of power the House had every right to do what they did in this last episode. Obviously, there's much debate on the wisdom of their tactics and that will be made evident in due time but they were not acting like right wing extremists but rather dutifully trying to fulfill their roles .There are 2 phases to enacting such a sweeping entitlement law..passing it - then funding it. I understand the republicans heartburn myself but many do not.

[homersapien 11,511]

"Religion requires us to believe the impossible; that’s what makes it religion. Politics is the art of the possible; that’s why it is not religion."

You are correct Titan. He nailed it.

[homersapien 11,511]

Honestly, do you think that we should let Obama turn our constitutional republic into a bankrupt Godless socialist country with lousy health care?

If I didn't know better, I would insist that was meant as humorous sarcasm.

But since I do, thanks for making the point!