The Federal Guvment is coming after your statues!!

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 minute ago, NolaAuTiger said:

well then...

You asked, I answered.  No need to flower it up with more words than necessary.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Let's also remember why this ended up costing over $2 million rather than around $170,000 (paid by private funds) that was planned: the unnecessary litigation and security issues created by protest groups who wanted the monuments to stay on public property.  Imagine the difference if the groups who liked the statues would have stepped up and offered to remove them and relocate them to private property or a museum.  Or if they'd simply asked for possession of the statues once the city took them down.  

Oh, and this...

Quote

The original $170,000 figure came from a contractor who had to pull out of the project after his car was lit on fire by protesters who were upset the monuments were being taken down...

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/12/us/new-orleans-confederate-monument-removal-price-trnd/index.html

So forgive me if I find it a bit rich for people who disagree with their removal to complain about the cost when they and others in their tribe were the overwhelming driver of the increased expense.

[AUDub 11,153]

9 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Oh, and this...

So forgive me if I find it a bit rich for people who disagree with their removal to complain about the cost when they and others in their tribe were the overwhelming driver of the increased expense.

He was also receiving death threats.

link

Quote

n January 2016, David Mahler, a contractor who had been hired by the City of New Orleans to remove the four statues including the statue of Robert E. Lee located in Lee Circle backed out of his contract with the city after he, his family, and employees began receiving death threats.^[23][24]

And it wasn't just any old car.

Quote

According to authorities in Baton Rouge, early on the morning of January 19, 2016 the Fire Department found a 2014 Lamborghini Huracan ablaze in a parking lot behind David Mahler's company, H&O Investments, LLC. The car, belonging to Mahler and valued at $200,000, was completely destroyed.^[25][26]

 

[AUUSN 823]

 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

You asked, I answered.  No need to flower it up with more words than necessary.

I erased the comment. 

Can you not see how this is a slippery slope?

I guess Egyptian Pyramids should be taken down also? They were built with slave labor. Or more to the point, all towns and roads named after confederate generals should be changed too. To hell with what the taxpayers say. 

Should New Orleans strip its fleur-de-lis symbol? It was used in southern Louisiana to brand runaway slaves. What about a Mardi Gras club named after Zulus - The most feared tribe in Africa that conquered all the other ones. That's their heritage. They started selling their brother Africans to the slave trade. So is Zulus going to change their name? I don't think so.

And don't give me a lecture on "whataboutism." These are valid considerations for your standard. 

[AUDub 11,153]

2 minutes ago, AUUSN said:

 

George H. Thomas! Best, most modern officer in the war.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Also, allow me to put this $2.1 million figure into perspective.  NOLA's general fund budget was around $615 million for 2017.  $2.1 million adds up to 0.34% of the total budget.  Let me repeat:  zero point three four percent.  And this in a city that has had balanced budgets for several years now and has gone from an almost $100 million deficit in 2010 to running surpluses.

It certainly shouldn't have cost that much, but it didn't have to either if people hadn't been complete idiots about the issue.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

24 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

rather than around $170,000 (paid by private funds) that was planned

You're way off. 

This is a better article http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_2bd847f0-4d56-11e7-974a-5fdcca694e96.html

[alexava 6,973]

58 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You clearly don't empathize with our black citizens.

I actually do. Hence my support of removing the confederate flag on all public property. These monuments are a bit different. I don’t support either side.  the people raising the most hell about it are not black. The monuments are already there not bothering anyone. Unless it could be done mutually, peacefully and not a dime wasted, move on. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

4 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

I erased the comment. 

Can you not see how this is a slippery slope?

I guess Egyptian Pyramids should be taken down also? They were built with slave labor. Or more to the point, all towns and roads named after confederate generals should be changed too. To hell with what the taxpayers say. 

If taxpayers in 1884 decided to erect a memorial to proclaim that the black man's rightful place was picking cotton, would the fact that the monuments had managed to stay in place for 140 years matter to you?  NOLA had 150 years of history prior to the Confederacy, minus any of these venerations to a morally wrong and lost cause.  Should that factor in as well?  Or is the only history that should come into play be the segment where the Lost Cause mythology held sway?

 

4 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Should New Orleans strip its fleur-de-lis symbol? It was used in southern Louisiana to brand runaway slaves. What about a Mardi Gras club named after Zulus - The most feared tribe in Africa that conquered all the other ones. That's their heritage. They started selling their brother Africans to the slave trade. So is Zulus going to change their name? I don't think so.

And don't give me a lecture on "whataboutism." These are valid considerations for your standard. 

I've heard the arguments about the fleur-de-lis and didn't find them any more compelling than the similar criticisms of the St. Andrew's cross used on the Alabama state flag.  Both fleur-de-lis and the St. Andrew's cross existed long before they were co-opted and used by morally repugnant causes.

We can debate these other issues on their own terms.  But monuments to the Confederacy don't belong on public property.  If people want to have these memorials, the supporters of them can do so on private land and fund their upkeep and protection themselves.

[AUUSN 823]

 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

10 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

You're way off. 

This is a better article http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_2bd847f0-4d56-11e7-974a-5fdcca694e96.html

I'm not way off.  The article even mentions the original $175,000 figure.  That was a quote from a contractor who backed out due to death threats and destruction of his personal property by the inbreds opposed to removing the monuments.  The subsequent contractor charged much more, and then the amount went up from there.

I'll also note, from your article, the $2.1 million figure wasn't all paid for by the city.  Slightly less than half of it was.  The other half came from private donations.  So only about 0.16% of the budget went toward this effort.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Also, allow me to put this $2.1 million figure into perspective.  NOLA's general fund budget was around $615 million for 2017.  $2.1 million adds up to 0.34% of the total budget.  Let me repeat:  zero point three four percent.  And this in a city that has had balanced budgets for several years now and has gone from an almost $100 million deficit in 2010 to running surpluses.

It certainly shouldn't have cost that much, but it didn't have to either if people hadn't been complete idiots about the issue.

Then why do we have the worst roads in America? Why don't crime-saturated areas in New Orleans East have cameras? Why do we have an underfunded and underemployed police force (our police force is a mess)? Why do we have to pay State Police to work in French Quarter? 

$1.1M goes a long way in New Orleans. Citizens get aggravated when they see funding for 'problems' that should come second to other problems in the City. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

Just now, NolaAuTiger said:

Then why do we have the worst roads in America? Why don't crime-saturated areas in New Orleans East have cameras? Why do we have an underfunded and underemployed police force (our police force is a mess)? Why do we have to pay State Police to work in French Quarter? 

$1.1M goes a long way in New Orleans. Citizens get aggravated when they see funding for 'problems' that should come second to other problems in the City. 

Understood.  But it was a one-time expense, half of which came from private donors.  And it never had to be that expensive to do had the crazies not taken over.

I can't tell you why your city government spends its money one way instead of another.  But the facts of the matter are as I stated them.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The article even mentions the original $175,000 figure.

That figure was an early estimate. 

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

1 minute ago, TitanTiger said:

Understood.  But it was a one-time expense, half of which came from private donors.  And it never had to be that expensive to do had the crazies not taken over.

I can't tell you why your city government spends its money one way instead of another.  But the facts of the matter are as I stated them.

The tone in the city is that this was a last "hail mary" in Mitch's pursuit of landing in Washington. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 minute ago, NolaAuTiger said:

That figure was an early estimate quote.

No, it was a quote from a private contractor.  He subsequently backed out of the project and the only bid they got on it after that was over $600k.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 minute ago, NolaAuTiger said:

The tone in the city is that this was a last "hail mary" in Mitch's pursuit of landing in Washington. 

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.  It was still the right thing to do.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

6 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

No, it was a quote from a private contractor.  He subsequently backed out of the project and the only bid they got on it after that was over $600k.

Dude, the number was an early city estimate. Contractors placed bids on it. Also, no one would've actually been able to do all of the work, as is, at that price

Bid to remove Confederate monuments exceeds city's $170K budget

The future of the Confederate monuments the City Council decided to remove is again in question after the city received only one competitive bid from a company that wants to do the removal work. The city's budget for removing monuments is $170,000, but Couzan Services LLC bid $600,000 for the work.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

17 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Dude, the number was an early city estimate. Contractors placed bids on it. Also, no one would've actually been able to do all of the work, as is, at that price

Bid to remove Confederate monuments exceeds city's $170K budget

The future of the Confederate monuments the City Council decided to remove is again in question after the city received only one competitive bid from a company that wants to do the removal work. The city's budget for removing monuments is $170,000, but Couzan Services LLC bid $600,000 for the work.

 

It was an early city estimate based on a quote from the original contractor, which we have pointed out to you multiple times now:

Quote

The original $170,000 figure came from a contractor who had to pull out of the project after his car was lit on fire by protesters who were upset the monuments were being taken down

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/12/us/new-orleans-confederate-monument-removal-price-trnd/index.html

 

Quote

BATON ROUGE, LA (WAFB) - A Baton Rouge-based company is backing out of its deal to remove confederate monuments from New Orleans because of death threats to workers.

Lawyers for H and O Investments sent a letter to the City of New Orleans explaining that the owner of the company was not only threatened at his work, but at his home too.

The Baton Rouge Business Report says the owner of the company, David Mahler, sent a letter to the City of New Orleans, saying he "has received numerous telephone complaints, including death threats directed to Mahler and his staff. Mahler’s wife has also received threatening calls at the couple’s residence,"

H&O’s decision to pull out comes in the midst of a preservation effort by organizations that are having a federal judge hear arguments in favor of keeping the confederate monuments standing.

http://www.wafb.com/story/30970044/baton-rouge-contractor-receives-death-threats-backs-out-of-nola-monument-removal

 

Quote

The company hired to remove four New Orleans monuments related to the Confederacy has backed out of that project, after the owner and his wife received death threats and threatening calls, according to a recently filed court document.

An attorney for the company, Baton Rouge-based H&O Investments, said in a letter to city officials on Tuesday that after H&O made preparations to remove the controversial monuments, its offices received multiple telephone complaints, “including death threats personally directed to [company owner] David Mahler, and his staff, in addition to threatening calls received by his wife at their residence.”

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/politics/article_2eeeb079-1e38-5c0a-9576-b54a6d1ca977.html

The $170k figure wasn't a shot in the dark, it was what H&O had told the city it would cost to remove them.  And they didn't up the price on the city later.  They backed out of the job.  The subsequent increased cost came after this from a different contractor.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

41 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The original $170,000 figure came from a contractor who had to pull out of the project after his car was lit on fire by protesters who were upset the monuments were being taken down

bull****! The car was found burning the week AFTER they pulled out. CNN is trash! 

 

41 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

It was an early city estimate based on a quote from the original contractor, which we have pointed out to you multiple times now:

No it was not. You're wrong. You've not pointed anything out to me other than your own errors. Below is an NBC article from 2015, THE WEEK THAT NEW ORLEANS CITY COUNCIL VOTED. H&O was selected after the vote and announcement of the $170K figure.

Landrieu signed the new ordinance into law shortly after the vote. His administration said it would cost $170,000 to take the monuments down and put them in a warehouse until a new location is found for them — perhaps in a park or museum. The city said it would hire contractors soon to remove the monuments.

And this from nola.gov:

The estimated cost is approximately $170,000.  The city will begin the legal process necessary to remove the Liberty Place monument, which is currently subject to a federal court order.  The process for removing the other three monuments could begin in days. The City will use a contractor selected through its Job Order Contract Program (J.O.C.), a publicly-procured program that has been in place since 2009 and provides the opportunity to select from several contractors to perform small and emergency projects.  Additional details will be announced as they become available.

And another article...

H&O Investments of Baton Rouge was initially selected from a list of contractors preapproved to do relatively small projects for the city. But the firm backed out after its owner and staff received death threats. The owner’s $200,000 Lamborghini was later found torched in front of the firm’s office.

41 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

The $170k figure wasn't a shot in the dark, it was what H&O had told the city it would cost to remove them.  And they didn't up the price on the city later.

Wrong. 

Next time you should consider conceding points to those closer to the matter.

[TitanTiger 20,499]

1 hour ago, NolaAuTiger said:

bull****! The car was found burning the week AFTER they pulled out. CNN is trash! 

 

No it was not. You're wrong. You've not pointed anything out to me other than your own errors. Below is an NBC article from 2015, THE WEEK THAT NEW ORLEANS CITY COUNCIL VOTED. H&O was selected after the vote and announcement of the $170K figure.

Landrieu signed the new ordinance into law shortly after the vote. His administration said it would cost $170,000 to take the monuments down and put them in a warehouse until a new location is found for them — perhaps in a park or museum. The city said it would hire contractors soon to remove the monuments.

And this from nola.gov:

The estimated cost is approximately $170,000.  The city will begin the legal process necessary to remove the Liberty Place monument, which is currently subject to a federal court order.  The process for removing the other three monuments could begin in days. The City will use a contractor selected through its Job Order Contract Program (J.O.C.), a publicly-procured program that has been in place since 2009 and provides the opportunity to select from several contractors to perform small and emergency projects.  Additional details will be announced as they become available.

And another article...

H&O Investments of Baton Rouge was initially selected from a list of contractors preapproved to do relatively small projects for the city. But the firm backed out after its owner and staff received death threats. The owner’s $200,000 Lamborghini was later found torched in front of the firm’s office.

Wrong. 

Next time you should consider conceding points to those closer to the matter.

Ok, so he pulled out due to death threats and then the car was torched.  That doesn't substantially change anything.  They didn't pull that figure out of thin air and you've shown nothing that says otherwise.  The figure only went up substantially after he backed out, they had to get new quotes and the only one to submit one quoted them a figure of $600,000.

Hell, Baltimore managed to remove four Confederate statues for less than $20,000, so a $170k quote wouldn't be out of line anyway.

But regardless, the statues had no business on public property and they wouldn't have ended up costing the citing over $1 million had the inbreds not created massive security issues.  In the end, it was 0.16% of the city's general fund budget, hardly a crippling figure.  It would be like a person who makes $80,000 a year having a one time bill to pay of $128.  You'd pay more to have a medium sized tree removed and the stump ground up in your front yard.

[NolaAuTiger 3,295]

2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

then the car was torched.  That doesn't substantially change anything

Yes it does. It undermines claims similar to those by CNN  insinuating that "protestors" torched his car. It just as well could've been someone who has mad that he pulled out. 

4 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Baltimore managed to remove four Confederate statues for less than $20,000, so a $170k quote wouldn't be out of line anyway

Baltimore is not New Orleans. 

6 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

But regardless, the statues had no business on public property

So you say in your opinion

8 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

they wouldn't have ended up costing the citing over $1 million had the inbreds not created massive security issues.  In the end, it was 0.16% of the city's general fund budget, hardly a crippling figure.  It would be like a person who makes $80,000 a year having a one time bill to pay of $128.

The combination of both  pro-statue and anti-statue individuals was the reason for such massive security measure. Thousands of people attended in protest, and on more than one occasion. Lee Circle was a location where BLM protest had occurred before. I had to leave work early on one of the summer afternoons because the streets were being closed in anticipation of a pro BLM protest at Lee Circle. The sheer number of individuals in favor of the removal of the statues, which included lots of people from outside of the parish, would've warranted massive security measures on its own accord. That said, the protests were peaceful, except for a handful of arrest (3 during one of the big protests) for disturbing the peace. Again, you're spitballing from a distance.

20 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

In the end, it was 0.16% of the city's general fund budget, hardly a crippling figure.  It would be like a person who makes $80,000 a year having a one time bill to pay of $128.  You'd pay more to have a medium sized tree removed and the stump ground up in your front yard.

In the end it was a large sum of money that could have been used to address more pressing issues in New Orleans. Again, you're too far detached from unaddressed issues that have plagued New Orleans for years. I have lived in New Orleans ever since graduating high school (on weekdays in the semester I live one hour away in Baton Rouge). It's really aggravating to me that you would characterize it as "hardly a crippling figure." That's simply not true. 

[TitanTiger 20,499]

22 minutes ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Yes it does. It undermines claims similar to those by CNN  insinuating that "protestors" torched his car. It just as well could've been someone who has mad that he pulled out. 

Allow me to clarify, O Pedantic One:  It doesn't substantially change the fact that he pulled out because those opposed to the removal issued death threats to him and his family and he was scared.  Whether the torching of the car happened before or after he bowed out changes nothing of substance to his reasoning.

 

Quote

Baltimore is not New Orleans. 

No one said it is, nor does it matter.  The question you'd need to answer for this to be a valid response is:  To what degree would NOLA be so substantially different as it comes to the cost of removing metal and concrete from Baltimore.

 

Quote

So you say in your opinion

The combination of both pro-statue and anti-statue individuals was the reason for such massive security measure. Thousands of people attended in protest, and on more than one occasion. Lee Circle was a location where BLM protest had occurred before. I had to leave work early on one of the summer afternoons because the streets were being closed in anticipation of a pro BLM protest at Lee Circle. The sheer number of individuals in favor of the removal of the statues, which included lots of people from outside of the parish, would've warranted massive security measures on its own accord. That said, the protests were peaceful, except for a handful of arrest (3 during one of the big protests) for disturbing the peace. Again, you're spitballing from a distance.

In the end it was a large sum of money that could have been used to address more pressing issues in New Orleans. Again, you're too far detached from unaddressed issues that have plagued New Orleans for years. I have lived in New Orleans ever since graduating high school (on weekdays in the semester I live one hour away in Baton Rouge). It's really aggravating to me that you would characterize it as "hardly a crippling figure." That's simply not true. 

The bid that ended up winning was more than three times the $170,000 estimate originally given and that took into account increased security.  Yet it still went way over that due to security concerns mostly presented by the kind of folks who were making death threats.  Whether you think the increased costs were justified or not, the fact of the matter is the circumstances did indeed change significantly and what could have been an uneventful removal, ala Baltimore, became much more involved.

And the objective fact of the matter is that it's not a crippling figure no matter how significant the sum is to you.  Less than 1/6th of one percent of a budget just isn't.  Sure, that guy making $80,000 after taxes would have preferred to spend that $128 on something else, but it's not the end of the world.  It was a one time expense, no projects got shelved.  A one time $1M amount wouldn't have made a substantial dent in the various problems you see as plaguing your city.  And the thing is, had people simply not lost their frickin' minds over something that simply shouldn't have been that much of an idol to them, it wouldn't have.  Private money could have covered the entire thing.

[TexasTiger 12,950]

5 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

Removing New Orleans' confederate statues resulted in cost of $2M-plus for the city. Great use of funds for place that habitually bitches about lack of funding.....

Stupid mistakes are often costly to fix.