ga lied....what do you expect from Kemp?

[SocialCircle 570]

4 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Now, I’m thinking you’ve lost your damn mind.

No, it is the CDC that released the terrible guidelines that allowS for presumptions of Covid-19 and that allows Covid-19 to be counted in the reported deaths if someone has it even if it was “underlying.” You owe our lady friend an apology (and me too) for called her a liar when she said, “If someone dies with Covid-19 we are counting this as a Covid-19 death.” 

[TexasTiger 12,868]

9 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

No, it is the CDC that released the terrible guidelines that allowS for presumptions of Covid-19 and that allows Covid-19 to be counted in the reported deaths if someone has it even if it was “underlying.” You owe our lady friend an apology (and me too) for called her a liar when she said, “If someone dies with Covid-19 we are counting this as a Covid-19 death.” 

She’s not in charge of the CDC, and that is not the issued guideline. The guidelines are not at all obtuse or unclear as you indicate. You don’t get them. I understand that. But they’re not confusing to most medical personnel.

[SocialCircle 570]

28 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

This article lays out the statistical case for gross underreporting of Covid cases and deaths listed as pneumonia.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/05/23/experts-flu-and-pneumonia-data-might-help-curb-covid-19-outbreaks/5183054002/

I do think more people have had Covid-19 than has been reported and the number is large. I would need to study more about pneumonia deaths actually being Covid-19 deaths. 

[SocialCircle 570]

6 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

She’s not in charge of the CDC, and that is not the issued guideline. The guidelines are not at all obtuse or unclear as you indicate. You don’t get them. I understand that. But they’re not confusing to most medical personnel.

I agree it is not confusing to most medical personnel. If someone has or is presumed to have Covid-19 at the time of death they are to list it on the form. If it is anywhere on the form then it is reported by the CDC as a Covid-19 death. This includes immediate cause, underlying cause, and contributing cause and also can be presumed as one of these. 
 

Here is another nugget from the doc you presented:

Part I, Line (a): Immediate Cause of Death
▪ This is the disease or condition that directly preceded death.

Now if anyone has Covid-19 at the time of death didn’t the disease directly precede the death?

At this point you really have to ask yourself why does the CDC feel like they have a need to come out with special guidelines of reporting Covid-19 deaths. 

[TexasTiger 12,868]

21 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I agree it is not confusing to most medical personnel. If someone has or is presumed to have Covid-19 at the time of death they are to list it on the form. If it is anywhere on the form then it is reported by the CDC as a Covid-19 death. This includes immediate cause, underlying cause, and contributing cause and also can be presumed as one of these. 
 

Here is another nugget from the doc you presented:

Part I, Line (a): Immediate Cause of Death
▪ This is the disease or condition that directly preceded death.

Now if anyone has Covid-19 at the time of death didn’t the disease directly precede the death?

At this point you really have to ask yourself why does the CDC feel like they have a need to come out with special guidelines of reporting Covid-19 deaths. 

Why? To have some measure of consistency across 50 states? You see conspiracy in the mere issuance of guidelines?

Look at how the “nugget” you cited is used on the example.

The immediate cause is acute respiratory distress. Underlying that, pneumonia and Covid.

If the immediate condition directly preceding death was being shot in the head, Covid would not be an underlying cause.

[SocialCircle 570]

24 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Why? To have some measure of consistency across 50 states? You see conspiracy in the mere issuance of guidelines?

Look at how the “nugget” you cited is used on the example.

The immediate cause is acute respiratory distress. Underlying that, pneumonia and Covid.

If the immediate condition directly preceding death was being shot in the head, Covid would not be an underlying cause.

It doesn’t have to be the immediate cause of death to be reported by the CDC as a Covid-19 death. If someone has Covid-19 at the time of death it can be reported on the form as underlying or even contributing and thus reported as a Covid-19 death by the CDC. 
 

Again it can be presumed or immediate or underlying or contributing to be reported as a Covid-19 death per the CDC. 
 

You owe our lady an apology for calling her a liar when she said, “If someone has Covid-19 at time of death then they are reported as a Covid-19 death.” 
 

BTW this includes your gun shot victim and the guy in Colorado who died of alcohol poisoning and the person the doctor in Alabama used as as example of dying in an automobile accident. These people could have been completely asymptomatic and still reported as Covid-19 deaths per the CDC guidelines. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

50 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

It doesn’t have to be the immediate cause of death to be reported by the CDC as a Covid-19 death. If someone has Covid-19 at the time of death it can be reported on the form as underlying or even contributing and thus reported as a Covid-19 death by the CDC. 
 

Again it can be presumed or immediate or underlying or contributing to be reported as a Covid-19 death per the CDC. 
 

You owe our lady an apology for calling her a liar when she said, “If someone has Covid-19 at time of death then they are reported as a Covid-19 death.” 
 

BTW this includes your gun shot victim and the guy in Colorado who died of alcohol poisoning and the person the doctor in Alabama used as as example of dying in an automobile accident. These people could have been completely asymptomatic and still reported as Covid-19 deaths per the CDC guidelines. 

If you listen to the full clip and especially things she says up the 0:58, you can see she is talking about a situation almost exactly as I presented as an example. 

 

Hell, what she’s say is what Tex and myself have been saying all along. Let’s say there are outlier cases that have no business being reported....I don’t think the number of gunshot victims or alcohol poisoning cases being reported as Covid deaths are going to statistically sway the overall death counts. Of anything it’s way less than the margin of error. 

 

Now the cases shes referring to have to have legitimate reasons to be labeled as Covid. 

[SocialCircle 570]

23 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

If you listen to the full clip and especially things she says up the 0:58, you can see she is talking about a situation almost exactly as I presented as an example. 

 

Hell, what she’s say is what Tex and myself have been saying all along. Let’s say there are outlier cases that have no business being reported....I don’t think the number of gunshot victims or alcohol poisoning cases being reported as Covid deaths are going to statistically sway the overall death counts. Of anything it’s way less than the margin of error. 

 

Now the cases shes referring to have to have legitimate reasons to be labeled as Covid. 

I listened to the full clip and she starts by saying we report Covid-19 deaths liberally in the US. She is right because NYC is including foreign residents in their Covid-19 death count. She clearly says we count anyone who has Covid-19 as a Covid-19 death. Add to this that nobody disputes the CDC says Covid-19 can be assumed as well and hospitals do indeed get more money for many patients when reporting Covid-19. Keep in mind this is during a time when hospitals are bleeding cash and laying off people because the “experts” warned our healthcare system was going to be overwhelmed with Covid-19 patients. 
 

The extent of the over reporting is not clear. You could be right about that or wrong. I can’t determine from the evidence so far how many have been over reported and I doubt we will ever know. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

18 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

I listened to the full clip and she starts by saying we report Covid-19 deaths liberally in the US. She is right because NYC is including foreign residents in their Covid-19 death count. She clearly says we count anyone who has Covid-19 as a Covid-19 death. Add to this that nobody disputes the CDC says Covid-19 can be assumed as well and hospitals do indeed get more money for many patients when reporting Covid-19. Keep in mind this is during a time when hospitals are bleeding cash and laying off people because the “experts” warned our healthcare system was going to be overwhelmed with Covid-19 patients. 
 

The extent of the over reporting is not clear. You could be right about that or wrong. I can’t determine from the evidence so far how many have been over reported and I doubt we will ever know. 

And right before that she is talking about other countries and cited an example of if a patient comes in with Covid and also ultimately dies of something heart related how they are reporting it as heart related and how we have ways of reporting it as Covid related. They even spell out how to list it. This is almost the exact scenario I mentioned. There is nothing wrong with the guidelines. 

[SocialCircle 570]

1 hour ago, wdefromtx said:

And right before that she is talking about other countries and cited an example of if a patient comes in with Covid and also ultimately dies of something heart related how they are reporting it as heart related and how we have ways of reporting it as Covid related. They even spell out how to list it. This is almost the exact scenario I mentioned. There is nothing wrong with the guidelines. 

I agree with you in that she cites the example and I do agree it is proper to count that as a Covid-19 death. However, you can’t ignore the other things she said in addition to that part. And you can’t ignore the guidelines saying a Covid-19 death can be assumed per the CDC guidelines. 
 

We can agree to disagree. War Eagle and have a great Memorial Day weekend! 

[alexava 6,973]

3 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I do think more people have had Covid-19 than has been reported and the number is large. I would need to study more about pneumonia deaths actually being Covid-19 deaths. 

Covid causes pneumonia. 

[SocialCircle 570]

34 minutes ago, alexava said:

Covid causes pneumonia. 

Not always, but it can. However, if you look at the CDC data on reported provisional Covid-19 deaths this is clearly accounted for. Which means.....yes, but so what.

[alexava 6,973]

2 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

Not always, but it can. However, if you look at the CDC data on reported provisional Covid-19 deaths this is clearly accounted for. Which means.....yes, but so what.

I don’t know what you are even saying. But let me break this down. If you are ill, go to the hospital with trouble breathing you are going to get a chest X-ray and a Covid test. If the X-ray shows infection in the lungs, you have pneumonia.  If your Covid swab is positive, you have Covid. Every sane human being on earth will accept that the gotdam novel coronavirus referred to as Covid 19 caused pneumonia. If you die, Covid 19 is what Effing killed you. I don’t know what kind of research you have planned but it’s probably not exactly necessary. 

[wdefromtx 3,159]

3 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I agree with you in that she cites the example and I do agree it is proper to count that as a Covid-19 death. However, you can’t ignore the other things she said in addition to that part. And you can’t ignore the guidelines saying a Covid-19 death can be assumed per the CDC guidelines. 
 

We can agree to disagree. War Eagle and have a great Memorial Day weekend! 

I don’t really see any other problem with what she said. What specifically are you not liking? The reporter asked if the numbers could be skewed and are they overriding coroners (paraphrasing) and she notes that there are instances in rural cases in which they don’t have the full array of testing. Then Fauci comes in at the end and further more backs it up by saying if someone comes in with a heart condition and is positive for Covid and dies of a heart attack, they are listing it as a Covid related death. Is that what you don’t agree with? Honestly, I’m just trying to see what part it is you are concerned with. 

Happy Memorial Day as well!! 

[SocialCircle 570]

57 minutes ago, alexava said:

I don’t know what you are even saying. But let me break this down. If you are ill, go to the hospital with trouble breathing you are going to get a chest X-ray and a Covid test. If the X-ray shows infection in the lungs, you have pneumonia.  If your Covid swab is positive, you have Covid. Every sane human being on earth will accept that the gotdam novel coronavirus referred to as Covid 19 caused pneumonia. If you die, Covid 19 is what Effing killed you. I don’t know what kind of research you have planned but it’s probably not exactly necessary. 

I agree with you and have never said otherwise. What can happen though is someone can die because of pneumonia and never have had Covid-19. Per the CDC guidelines the assumption can be made this is a Covid-19 death And thus reported as such. 

[SaltyTiger 7,803]

2 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I agree with you and have never said otherwise. What can happen though is someone can die because of pneumonia and never have had Covid-19. Per the CDC guidelines the assumption can be made this is a Covid-19 death And thus reported as such. 

So you are saying we are not or at some point were not testing ideally? Why would that happen?

"Ideally, testing for COVID–19 should be Vital Statistics Reporting Guidance U.S. Department of Health and Human Services • Centers for Disease Control and Prevention • National Center for Health Statistics • National Vital Statistics System 3 conducted, but it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate without this confirmation if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty."

[SocialCircle 570]

3 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

I don’t really see any other problem with what she said. What specifically are you not liking? The reporter asked if the numbers could be skewed and are they overriding coroners (paraphrasing) and she notes that there are instances in rural cases in which they don’t have the full array of testing. Then Fauci comes in at the end and further more backs it up by saying if someone comes in with a heart condition and is positive for Covid and dies of a heart attack, they are listing it as a Covid related death. Is that what you don’t agree with? Honestly, I’m just trying to see what part it is you are concerned with. 

Happy Memorial Day as well!! 

To be brief I don’t like that someone with Covid-19 is reported as a Covid-19 death. Some of these people might even be asymptomatic and have Covid-19 at the time of death and get reported as a Covid-19 death. I also don’t like the fact that Covid-19 can be assumed and that can also be reported as a Covid-19 death. This causes Covid-19 deaths to be over reported in the US. 

[SocialCircle 570]

1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

So you are saying we are not or at some point were not testing ideally? Why would that happen?

"Ideally, testing for COVID–19 should be Vital Statistics Reporting Guidance U.S. Department of Health and Human Services • Centers for Disease Control and Prevention • National Center for Health Statistics • National Vital Statistics System 3 conducted, but it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate without this confirmation if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty."

Testing was botched by the CDC. Makes no sense now to allow assumptions does it? Why are the guidelines not updated? Today anyone can still assume and there is no reason for it.

[SocialCircle 570]

4 hours ago, alexava said:

I don’t know what you are even saying. But let me break this down. If you are ill, go to the hospital with trouble breathing you are going to get a chest X-ray and a Covid test. If the X-ray shows infection in the lungs, you have pneumonia.  If your Covid swab is positive, you have Covid. Every sane human being on earth will accept that the gotdam novel coronavirus referred to as Covid 19 caused pneumonia. If you die, Covid 19 is what Effing killed you. I don’t know what kind of research you have planned but it’s probably not exactly necessary. 

Google is your friend. The CDC already accounts for that.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#AgeAndSex
 

[SaltyTiger 7,803]

4 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Testing was botched by the CDC. Makes no sense now to allow assumptions does it? Why are the guidelines not updated? Today anyone can still assume and there is no reason for it.

No reason to allow assumptions? We have been building bridges for century's. Why are engineers still allowed to make design assumptions? 

[alexava 6,973]

3 hours ago, SocialCircle said:

I agree with you and have never said otherwise. What can happen though is someone can die because of pneumonia and never have had Covid-19. Per the CDC guidelines the assumption can be made this is a Covid-19 death And thus reported as such. 

I can’t imagine them not being swabbed in triage . First thing. 

[SocialCircle 570]

1 minute ago, alexava said:

I can’t imagine them not being swabbed in triage . First thing. 

Unless you can make more money by assuming and assuming is OK per the CDC guidelines. 

[SocialCircle 570]

13 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

No reason to allow assumptions? We have been building bridges for century's. Why are engineers still allowed to make design assumptions? 

Assumptions wouldn’t be allowed if a test was available unless it is Covid-19 you are talking about. 

[alexava 6,973]

3 minutes ago, SocialCircle said:

Unless you can make more money by assuming and assuming is OK per the CDC guidelines. 

I assume that er doctors in New York that have lived in the nightmare for 3 months can tell fairly easily if a person has advanced Covid. They might have been right to forego the test when testing was stretched thin. Now I see no reason not to verify it. I still can’t imagine this count of 93000??? Deaths being over reported by more than a thousand or two. Even if it was as much as 6-7000 how does 87000 change mentalities from 93000?

[wdefromtx 3,159]

1 hour ago, alexava said:

I assume that er doctors in New York that have lived in the nightmare for 3 months can tell fairly easily if a person has advanced Covid. They might have been right to forego the test when testing was stretched thin. Now I see no reason not to verify it. I still can’t imagine this count of 93000??? Deaths being over reported by more than a thousand or two. Even if it was as much as 6-7000 how does 87000 change mentalities from 93000?

The misreported cases probably don’t even move the needle past the margin of error.