Grand jury may review NYC subway chokehold killing: Sources

[TexasTiger 13,130]

10 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

No one here is arguing that it’s okay. I am saying that nothing I’m seeing so far makes it criminal.

I’m not encouraging anything. I’m saying that under the circumstances, intervening seems reasonable. 
 

Agreed. And I’m not offering care blanche immunity for any action a person attempts to address a perceived threat. 

While intervening seemed reasonable, was a prolonged chokehold excessive especially given no one had been harmed?

[TitanTiger 20,542]

3 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

While intervening seemed reasonable, was a prolonged chokehold excessive especially given no one had been harmed?

According to The NY Times, and what I can observe, the entire time of him having him in that hold was just under three minutes. And according to the man that recorded it, the man was fighting them most of that time. He also said none of them thought he was in distress or hurt by it. 

[1716AU 732]

18 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

It must take a judgmental mind to do so.

Well, you would be the expert in that area...

[icanthearyou 4,464]

17 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

This is the result of the soft on crime approach that results in more incidents of attacks and killings between criminals and regular citizens.

No.  This is the result when the wealthiest country in the history of humankind lacks the necessary humanity for dealing with it's homeless, mentally ill, poor.

We need more social programs, they are ultimately cheaper than the alternatives. 

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

6 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

No.  This is the result when the wealthiest country in the history of humankind lacks the necessary humanity for dealing with it's homeless, mentally ill, poor.

We need more social programs, they are ultimately cheaper than the alternatives. 

Nope this case doesn't fit your narrative of someone not being offered help or given chances to avoid being in jail.

Quote

Neely was arrested 42 times across the last decade, with his most recent bust in November 2021 for slugging a 67-year-old female stranger in the face as she exited a subway station in the East Village, cops said.

The senior citizen suffered a broken nose and fractured orbital bone when she was knocked to the sidewalk, along with swelling and “substantial” head pain after hitting the ground.

Neely eventually pleaded to felony assault and received 15 months in an alternative-to-incarceration program that, if completed, would have allowed him to plead to misdemeanor assault and get a conditional discharge.

But a warrant was issued for his arrest on Feb. 23, when he skipped a court compliance court date where a judge was to be updated on whether he was meeting all the requirements of the program.

On June 27, 2019, Neely was arrested for punching a 64-year-old man in the face during a fight in a Greenwich Village subway station, cops said.

And he was busted in August 2015 for attempted kidnapping after he was seen dragging a 7-year-old girl down an Inwood street. He pled guilty to endangering the welfare of a child and was sentenced to four months in jail.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-possible-charges-marine-michael-jackson-impersonator-jordan-neely-20230504-plaznkv5pjbuxaqdu2tlxpieqq-story.html

[icanthearyou 4,464]

17 hours ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Nope this case doesn't fit your narrative of someone not being offered help or given chances to avoid being in jail.

You should look at this persons life in a little more detail.  You might also want to think about your own sense of empathy.  Killing the mentally ill is not the answer.

[Auburnfan91 1,407]

4 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

You should look at this persons life in a little more detail.  You might also want to think about your own sense of empathy.  Killing the mentally ill is not the answer.

Mental illness isn't an excuse to to threaten to harm to others. Not all mentally ill people threaten to hurt others. Not all mentally ill adults attack 7 year old kids or attack elderly people. Not all mentally ill people get arrested 42 times. This is more than just mental illness. This individual was allowed to terrorize society for years because none of his family cared enough about him to get him to half way function without being violent.

So if a stranger threatens to hurt you on a subway are you supposed to hope the person doesn't follow through on the threats and not engage them?  There's no police around to help. You can't just retreat either, you're on the subway. There's only so much you can do when you can't retreat and someone is threatening to hurt anyone in their path.

It's amazing how regular citizens are tasked with following the rules and facing consequences if anything goes wrong when they engage a bad person but bad people/criminals don't have to follow the rules and aren't held accountable.

[icanthearyou 4,464]

57 minutes ago, Auburnfan91 said:

Mental illness isn't an excuse to to threaten to harm to others. Not all mentally ill people threaten to hurt others. Not all mentally ill adults attack 7 year old kids or attack elderly people. Not all mentally ill people get arrested 42 times. This is more than just mental illness. This individual was allowed to terrorize society for years because none of his family cared enough about him to get him to half way function without being violent.

So if a stranger threatens to hurt you on a subway are you supposed to hope the person doesn't follow through on the threats and not engage them?  There's no police around to help. You can't just retreat either, you're on the subway. There's only so much you can do when you can't retreat and someone is threatening to hurt anyone in their path.

It's amazing how regular citizens are tasked with following the rules and facing consequences if anything goes wrong when they engage a bad person but bad people/criminals don't have to follow the rules and aren't held accountable.

You are very wrong.  It is our job to care for these people, not simply incarcerate and harm them.  This man has been known to be mentally ill since his teens, when his mother was murdered.  Most of those 42 arrests were for petty incidents such as fare evasion.  This situation NEVER should have come to this if, in fact, we were a caring, benevolent society.

Nothing about our system suggests we kill, accidentally or not, others who are causing a disturbance.  Violence is NOT the answer to dealing with those who are mentally ill.

[Auburn85 434]

 

[CoffeeTiger 5,227]

Yeah, a Manslaughter charge is what I was betting on. 

[Auburn85 434]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/daniel-penny-surrenders-jordan-neely-subway-chokehold-death-manslaughter-charge/

 

 

Quote

 

Daniel Penny released on bail after being charged with manslaughter in Jordan Neely subway chokehold death

 

By Stephen Smith, Alex Sundby

Updated on: May 12, 2023

 

A man seen on video putting another man in a deadly chokehold on a New York City subway train was released on bail Friday after turning himself in to face criminal charges. Daniel Penny, a 24-year-old Marine veteran, was charged with second degree manslaughter, the Manhattan district attorney's office said Thursday.

Jordan Neely, a 30-year-old former Michael Jackson impersonator who was homeless, died after being put in a chokehold by Penny earlier this month. Attorneys for Neely's family on Friday supported prosecutors' decision to charge Penny, but said he should have been charged with murder, not manslaughter, and that he should have been arrested sooner.

"Daniel Penny chose, intentionally chose, a technique to use that is designed to cut off air — that's what he chose — and he chose to continue to hold that chokehold minute after minute, second after second, until there was no life left in Jordan Neely," Neely family attorney Lennon Edwards told reporters Friday.

if convicted of manslaughter in the second degree, Penny could face as many as 15 years in prison. During Friday's court appearance, he didn't enter a plea and was released on $100,000 bond. He can't leave New York state without approval, and his next court date was scheduled for July.

Penny surrendered to authorities at a New York City police precinct shortly after 8 a.m. Friday was later led out of the precinct in handcuffs. His attorneys have said they expect him to be "fully absolved" as the case moves forward.

Daniel Penny is walked out of a New York Police Department precinct in Lower Manhattan on his way to be arraigned after he surrendered to authorities in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely. Timothy A. Clary/AFP via Getty Images

Jordan Neely's cause of death

A video lasting nearly 3 minutes shows Penny on the floor of a subway car with Neely in a chokehold on May 1. Penny was initially questioned by police and released without being charged.

"He should have been arrested on the spot," Edwards said Friday. Donte Mills, another attorney representing Neely's family, said Penny "absolutely" should have been charged "because he acted with indifference."

The New York City medical examiner's office determined that Neely died from a chokehold and ruled his death a homicide.

Witnesses told police Neely had been begging for food and acting erratically on the F-line train before Penny intervened. According to witnesses, Neely was screaming about being hungry and tired but didn't attack anyone.

"There was no attack," Mills told reporters. "Mr. Neely did not attack anyone, he did not touch anyone, he did not hit anyone. But he was choked to death, and that can't stand. That can't be what we represent."

Daniel Penny's attorneys' statement

After charges were announced Thursday, Penny's attorneys said he "stepped in to protect himself and his fellow New Yorkers."

"We are confident that once all the facts and circumstances surrounding this tragic incident are brought to bear, Mr. Penny will be fully absolved of any wrongdoing," Kenniff and fellow attorney Steven Raiser said in a statement.

Last week, the attorneys said Neely was "aggressively threatening Daniel Penny and other passengers," and that Penny and others "acted to protect themselves."

"Daniel never intended to harm Mr. Neely and could not have foreseen his untimely death," the attorneys said.

Neely's family said in response that the statement by Penny's attorney amounts to an "admission of guilt," and that "his actions on the train, and now his words, show why he needs to be in prison."

Mills described Neely as someone who struggled with mental illness but said, "Jordan had a family. Jordan was loved. ... He made other people smile."

The case sparked days of protests by demonstrators calling for justice for Neely.

Public Advocate Jumaane Williams, a city elected official, joined the calls for charges against Penny ahead of Thursday's announcement.

"Jordan Neely was unjustly killed, and charges must be immediately brought against the person who killed him," Williams told reporters this week. "To say anything else is an equivocation that will only further a narrative that devalues the life of a Black homeless man with mental health challenges and encourages an attitude of dehumanization of New Yorkers in greatest need."

City Comptroller Brad Lander said mental health services need to be more widely available to New Yorkers. "New York City is not Gotham," Lander told reporters. "We can't be a city where you can choke someone to death who's experiencing a mental health crisis."

New York Mayor Eric Adams acknowledged that Neely's death "devastated his family and shocked his fellow New Yorkers." Adams also urged people not to rush to judgment.

"One thing we can say for sure: Jordan Neely did not deserve to die," Adams said Wednesday during an address at City Hall, "and all of us must work together to do more for our brothers and sisters struggling with serious mental illness."

 

 

 

[I_M4_AU 8,055]

A better headline would have been:  Gotham City arrests Batman: Released on Bail.

[aubiefifty 17,098]

it is a very bad look and it ended up badly. is the choke hold not outlawed by police and i assume illegal for anyone? at the same time marines are trained to kill. they grind that training into you until it becomes second nature. but here is what i do not understand is all i see was the man hollering? i read nothing said he was attacking anyone. if this is true then what happened was wrong in holding him in that choke hold too long was wrong. i do not know a single person who has his breath cut off that would not struggle. i imagine the homeless guy was nasty and stunk and that probably prejudiced some folks. but some talking heads are celebrating this death and that is wrong. all you have to do is scan the headlines. i will offer taking a life is wrong if you can help it but if the guy was threatening folks i can see why it happened.

[Mims44 1,896]

On 5/5/2023 at 4:40 PM, TitanTiger said:

I would agree, but also based on what I've read and the video I've seen so far, I wouldn't say the guy was trying to kill anyone.  He was just trying to subdue a guy who was screaming and saying things like, "I don’t mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I’m ready to die." 

 

On 5/5/2023 at 4:50 PM, TitanTiger said:

I don't think trying to restrain someone is an act of "vigilantism."  It's an act of protection for innocent people around you.  There were women and older people around this guy who's losing his s*** and strongly suggesting he's willing to do something that could result in him getting the death penalty.  You seem to be penalizing a guy for having to make a judgment call on when to step in and that doesn't make sense to me.
 

On 5/5/2023 at 4:59 PM, TitanTiger said:

You keep using the word "should" as if he set out to kill the guy or didn't give a s***.  Nothing we've learned thus far from eyewitnesses nor video of the situation warrants such a belief.  He was attempting to restrain a man who was being menacing and threatening in a confined space with no law enforcement. 

I reserve the right to change my mind if additional facts or video come out, but trying to subdue someone acting erratic and threatening until the next stop (this incident lasted less than 3 minutes), but nothing about this so far reads as a guy obviously attempting to respond disproportionately in the heat of the moment.  And if nothing more comes out to change that, he shouldn't be charged with a crime.  Maybe if he'd jumped the guy and started punching him or something you'd have a point here but just "well a man died so the guy restraining him must be guilty of a crime - circumstances, intent and video evidence be damned" is a strange approach.

On 5/5/2023 at 6:10 PM, TitanTiger said:

No one here is arguing that it’s okay. I am saying that nothing I’m seeing so far makes it criminal.

I’m not encouraging anything. I’m saying that under the circumstances, intervening seems reasonable. 
 

Agreed. And I’m not offering care blanche immunity for any action a person attempts to address a perceived threat. 

God bless you Titan. ICHY is so dense it has to take a truly good person to continue as you do.

No one, not a single poster ever makes this point.

ICHY: I for one an against randomly murdering homeless people.

No one, not a single poster argues that point.

ICHY: I am AGAINST the genocide of the mentally ill.

No one again argues the point.

ICHY: Guys, I am SERIOUS about this. I am against the random slaughtering of homeless mentally ill people!

 

 

 

 

And Titan just calmly explains it to him, over and over. 

You are a true AUFamily hero Sir.

 

[icanthearyou 4,464]

2 hours ago, Mims44 said:

No one here is arguing that it’s okay. I am saying that nothing I’m seeing so far makes it criminal.

Then it is okay? 

You and, Titan are misrepresenting my words.

The mentally ill, homeless man was killed.  I do not think it is murder but, it should not be written off as a justifiable mistake.  The practice of violent vigilantism should not be encouraged.

I hope both of you can understand.

Edited May 15, 2023 by icanthearyou

[homersapien 11,511]

42 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Then it is okay? 

You and, Titan are misrepresenting my words.

The mentally ill, homeless man was killed.  I do think it is murder but, it should not be written off as a justifiable mistake.  The practice of violent vigilantism should not be encouraged.

I hope both of you can understand.

"not"?

I agree, it wasn't murder - something more like manslaughter.

And it's hard to tell from all this, but I'd like know just how much of a actual much of a physical threat the victim represented.  We know he was mentally ill and homeless. How old was he?  How fit?

A choke hold is serious.  Could the Marine could have just pinned him from behind? 

Edited May 15, 2023 by homersapien

[Trakem 85]

On 5/7/2023 at 11:45 AM, icanthearyou said:

You should look at this persons life in a little more detail.  You might also want to think about your own sense of empathy.  Killing the mentally ill is not the answer.

 

[icanthearyou 4,464]

1 minute ago, Trakem said:

 

So, you equate a mentally ill human being with a rabid dog?

[icanthearyou 4,464]

Funny how some of those who are the most outspoken in regard to abortion,,, are so willing to support this sort of killing.

[I_M4_AU 8,055]

A witness has come forward with her story:

“I hope he has a great lawyer, and I’m praying for him,” the 66-year-old woman, who did not want to be identified, told The Post Thursday night. “And I pray that he gets treated fairly, I really do. Because after all of this ensued, I went back and made sure that I said ‘Thank you’ to him.”

The Manhattan District Attorney’s Office confirmed Thursday afternoon Penny would be charged with second-degree manslaughter. 

He is expected to surrender to authorities Friday morning.

The subway rider said Neely, who had a history of mental illness, was threatening passengers after he hopped on an F train in Manhattan.

“He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”

The retiree said Penny did not initially engage with Neely during the wild rant until things got out of hand and he felt the urge to step in.

“This gentleman, Mr. Penny, did not stand up,” the rider said. “Did not engage with the gentleman. He said not a word. It was all Mr. Neely that was … threatening the passengers. If he did not get what he wants.”

Neely had a criminal history with more than 40 arrests, law enforcement sources previously told The Post.

“‘Gonna go to jail for life’? What? What penalties involve going to jail for life?” she wondered. “Could you tell me? Yeah, it’s not kicking somebody in the shin, or punching somebody in the face.”

https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/jordan-neely-chokehold-death-witness-praying-for-daniel-penny/

 

[aubiefifty 17,098]

17 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

A witness has come forward with her story:

“I hope he has a great lawyer, and I’m praying for him,” the 66-year-old woman, who did not want to be identified, told The Post Thursday night. “And I pray that he gets treated fairly, I really do. Because after all of this ensued, I went back and made sure that I said ‘Thank you’ to him.”

The Manhattan District Attorney’s Office confirmed Thursday afternoon Penny would be charged with second-degree manslaughter. 

He is expected to surrender to authorities Friday morning.

The subway rider said Neely, who had a history of mental illness, was threatening passengers after he hopped on an F train in Manhattan.

“He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”

The retiree said Penny did not initially engage with Neely during the wild rant until things got out of hand and he felt the urge to step in.

“This gentleman, Mr. Penny, did not stand up,” the rider said. “Did not engage with the gentleman. He said not a word. It was all Mr. Neely that was … threatening the passengers. If he did not get what he wants.”

Neely had a criminal history with more than 40 arrests, law enforcement sources previously told The Post.

“‘Gonna go to jail for life’? What? What penalties involve going to jail for life?” she wondered. “Could you tell me? Yeah, it’s not kicking somebody in the shin, or punching somebody in the face.”

https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/jordan-neely-chokehold-death-witness-praying-for-daniel-penny/

 

the point i think bothering ichy is some of you seem happy about someone losing their life. the fact they were mentally makes it worse. and what is the first commandment? this country enjoys death too much. it has become part of our culture. and again, since no one answered is a choke hold still legal? the last i heard it was NOT. if it was then mr hero messed up trying to help out.

[I_M4_AU 8,055]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

the point i think bothering ichy is some of you seem happy about someone losing their life. the fact they were mentally makes it worse. and what is the first commandment? this country enjoys death too much. it has become part of our culture. and again, since no one answered is a choke hold still legal? the last i heard it was NOT. if it was then mr hero messed up trying to help out.

The first commandment is *Thou shalt have no other gods before me*, I would guess you are looking for the 6th commandment which is *Thou shalt not kill* which widely interpreted as *Thou shalt not murder* as there are instances where killing is justified.

let’s look at these two lives; Jordan Neely had 30 years on this earth and had made many poor decisions that lead to that fateful day.  His family, evidently, abandoned him to the streets and did not support him in the last decade or so.  Law enforcement, which is only going to be involved if the family unit has failed, did not hold him accountable for his actions.  This is what should have happened when he was growing up by the family.  So, he was lead to believe he could do anything he wanted to other people without consequences and that is what he did by threatening the people on the subway.

Daniel Penny had 24 years on this earth filled with good decisions.  He took responsibility for his life and attempted to better himself by joining the Marines.  He is the type of person that looks out for his fellow man and is willing to stand in defense of other people when threatened and Jordan Neely was threatening other people.

Those two life’s collided when Neely threatened the passengers saying he would be willing to jail if he didn‘t get his way.  I was not there, but evidently, the situation escalated to the point Penny AND TWO OTHER PASSENGERS attempted to subdue Neely until police arrived.  Keep in mind they were on the a traveling train and Neely knew there would be no police available to control him.  That coupled with the fact he never had resistance before and he felt confident he could coerce the other passengers to give him money.  This is the reason Penny reacted, because he is a responsible able bodied man doing what men are suppose to do.

To answer you question about a choke hold is; no it is not illegal as a person has the right to use every ability available to protect his life.  Most all police departments have erased the choke hold from their policies and there in lies the confusion.

Now on to Ichy:  No one is happy Jordan Neely lost his life, it was an unfortunate turn of events that no one on that train had any idea would happen when they boarded.  The cause and affect was all on Neely, if this man had not threatened his fellow passengers they all would have left alive.  You last statement is what his world has come to.  Condemning a man for coming to the aid of others.  It is the same reason Neely has had free rein on the subway for a decade or so.  No one, not his family, the police or other citizens, wanted to get involved.  Vigilantes are not the answer, but this wasn’t about vigilantes as Penny didn’t go *hunting* for subway thugs.  It just presented itself.

Ichy comparing this to abortion is even more egregious.  Ending a person’s life before is begins is, in most cases, because of convenience.  There are a great many stories that show the potential of a life yet to be lived.  Here is one of those stories, it wasn’t abortion, but he mother would not give up on her son even though they only had (according to the doctors) a 1% chance of survival.

 

Life is a crap shoot.  You have not idea how it will turn out, but family is what pulls you through.  If you don’t have a caring family, life is not over, it still holds potential.  That is what I get from Ichy POV is that if that unwanted child is born into a family that didn’t want it that child is doomed.  It really is a negative way of looking at the love of Jesus.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[aubiefifty 17,098]

50 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

The first commandment is *Thou shalt have no other gods before me*, I would guess you are looking for the 6th commandment which is *Thou shalt not kill* which widely interpreted as *Thou shalt not murder* as there are instances where killing is justified.

let’s look at these two lives; Jordan Neely had 30 years on this earth and had made many poor decisions that lead to that fateful day.  His family, evidently, abandoned him to the streets and did not support him in the last decade or so.  Law enforcement, which is only going to be involved if the family unit has failed, did not hold him accountable for his actions.  This is what should have happened when he was growing up by the family.  So, he was lead to believe he could do anything he wanted to other people without consequences and that is what he did by threatening the people on the subway.

Daniel Penny had 24 years on this earth filled with good decisions.  He took responsibility for his life and attempted to better himself by joining the Marines.  He is the type of person that looks out for his fellow man and is willing to stand in defense of other people when threatened and Jordan Neely was threatening other people.

Those two life’s collided when Neely threatened the passengers saying he would be willing to jail if he didn‘t get his way.  I was not there, but evidently, the situation escalated to the point Penny AND TWO OTHER PASSENGERS attempted to subdue Neely until police arrived.  Keep in mind they were on the a traveling train and Neely knew there would be no police available to control him.  That coupled with the fact he never had resistance before and he felt confident he could coerce the other passengers to give him money.  This is the reason Penny reacted, because he is a responsible able bodied man doing what men are suppose to do.

To answer you question about a choke hold is; no it is not illegal as a person has the right to use every ability available to protect his life.  Most all police departments have erased the choke hold from their policies and there in lies the confusion.

Now on to Ichy:  No one is happy Jordan Neely lost his life, it was an unfortunate turn of events that no one on that train had any idea would happen when they boarded.  The cause and affect was all on Neely, if this man had not threatened his fellow passengers they all would have left alive.  You last statement is what his world has come to.  Condemning a man for coming to the aid of others.  It is the same reason Neely has had free rein on the subway for a decade or so.  No one, not his family, the police or other citizens, wanted to get involved.  Vigilantes are not the answer, but this wasn’t about vigilantes as Penny didn’t go *hunting* for subway thugs.  It just presented itself.

Ichy comparing this to abortion is even more egregious.  Ending a person’s life before is begins is, in most cases, because of convenience.  There are a great many stories that show the potential of a life yet to be lived.  Here is one of those stories, it wasn’t abortion, but he mother would not give up on her son even though they only had (according to the doctors) a 1% chance of survival.

 

Life is a crap shoot.  You have not idea how it will turn out, but family is what pulls you through.  If you don’t have a caring family, life is not over, it still holds potential.  That is what I get from Ichy POV is that if that unwanted child is born into a family that didn’t want it that child is doomed.  It really is a negative way of looking at the love of Jesus.

Sorry for the long post.

 

you are so right about family. i am alone in this world. when thanksgiving and mom and dads day roll around i am. no sisters. it is pretty scary to be almost 68 and be alone. it is pretty tough watching friends go celebrate this or that with joy and laughter and home cooked meals which i rarely ever get. sometimes i think it is a trade off for being able to live this long. i am certainly not looking for sympathy. it is what it is. but no one cares as much about people as they used to. i was stuck in the pentagon in dc on my first thanksgiving. a sailor i barely knew just showed up knocking on my door telling me to get my stuff that he would not allow a brother to suffer the holiday alone. i am sure they still do it in the military but this kind of thing rarely ever happens. the worst thing is i live alone and fear one day i will pass and no one will know for a couple of weeks. that happened to a fellow musician i met. he was well loved by all. no one saw him and it turns up he was lying dead for about two weeks and they still talk about how bad it looked. and you guys say have faith and turn to jesus. but i had faith in much of anything beaten out of me. i do pray and i hope one day jesus reaches out to me. pardon me for getting off tangent. i am high at the moment and sometimes i am less guarded in what i say. as an after thought when god says no other god before me does this mean i can believe in other gods as long as he is number one?

[I_M4_AU 8,055]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

you are so right about family. i am alone in this world. when thanksgiving and mom and dads day roll around i am. no sisters. it is pretty scary to be almost 68 and be alone. it is pretty tough watching friends go celebrate this or that with joy and laughter and home cooked meals which i rarely ever get. sometimes i think it is a trade off for being able to live this long. i am certainly not looking for sympathy. it is what it is. but no one cares as much about people as they used to. i was stuck in the pentagon in dc on my first thanksgiving. a sailor i barely knew just showed up knocking on my door telling me to get my stuff that he would not allow a brother to suffer the holiday alone. i am sure they still do it in the military but this kind of thing rarely ever happens. the worst thing is i live alone and fear one day i will pass and no one will know for a couple of weeks. that happened to a fellow musician i met. he was well loved by all. no one saw him and it turns up he was lying dead for about two weeks and they still talk about how bad it looked. and you guys say have faith and turn to jesus. but i had faith in much of anything beaten out of me. i do pray and i hope one day jesus reaches out to me. pardon me for getting off tangent. i am high at the moment and sometimes i am less guarded in what i say. as an after thought when god says no other god before me does this mean i can believe in other gods as long as he is number one?

I was orphaned when I was 48.  It sounds weird, but when both your parents pass you are orphaned and it is just different when you don’t have that contact with someone that has known you your entire life.  I’m sorry about your current situation Fifty, sounds rough.  I wonder who will go first; my wife or me and it will be devastating if she goes first.  I already know that.

As to the commandment; I am alway thought of it as there is only one God, the others are false idols. In Matthew 24: it goes on to say “No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”. Obviously talking about putting wealth, fame etc ahead of God, but it points out that some people will honor wealth more than God and I, at times, have been guilty of that.  We all have sinned and still we try go do better.

[icanthearyou 4,464]

4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

what I get from Ichy POV is that if that unwanted child is born into a family that didn’t want it that child is doomed

Not necessarily, nothing is absolute but,,, the odds for happiness are greatly diminished, particularly in a world with such extreme inequality and, little social welfare.

The remedy lies in a better society, not the force of law.