The income tax?

[Tigermike 3,055]

“Tyrannical taxation, and excessive government spending and borrowing, are not only threats to our economy—they erode the resource base of our freedom and our moral responsibility. The income tax is a 20th-century socialist experiment that has failed. Before the income tax was imposed on us just 85 years ago, government had no claim to our income. Only sales, excise and tariff taxes were allowed. We need to return to the Constitution of economic liberty that our Founders intended to be a permanent bulwark of our political liberty. The income tax in effect makes us vassals of the government—the politicians decide how much income we can keep. No mere ‘reform’ of this slave tax, such as flattening the rate, can correct its fundamental denial of control over our own money.” — Alan Keyes

What do you think? Is he right or wrong? Is he even close?

[CCTAU 3,350]

We are way down deep in the hole now. Can't eliminate it, but you can stabilize it. Fair tax plan would put the burden on every occupant of this country. It would alleviate that burden for the legal citizens of low income. It wold keep revenue flowing to the government without stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Anyone who opposes it truly subscribes to a slave system that can be used for political, and not practical, gain.

[otterinbham 0]

Well, the interesting thing is that the Sixteenth Amendment, the one that gives the Federal government the right to implement an Income Tax, may have not been ratified by the 2/3rds of states required for inclusion in the constitution.

To wit:

http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxe...r_is_income.htm

[otterinbham 0]

“Tyrannical taxation, and excessive government spending and borrowing, are not only threats to our economy—they erode the resource base of our freedom and our moral responsibility. The income tax is a 20th-century socialist experiment that has failed. Before the income tax was imposed on us just 85 years ago, government had no claim to our income. Only sales, excise and tariff taxes were allowed. We need to return to the Constitution of economic liberty that our Founders intended to be a permanent bulwark of our political liberty. The income tax in effect makes us vassals of the government—the politicians decide how much income we can keep. No mere ‘reform’ of this slave tax, such as flattening the rate, can correct its fundamental denial of control over our own money.” — Alan Keyes

What do you think? Is he right or wrong? Is he even close?

Well, he is essentially correct. However, Friedman and Von Hayek were far more eloquent.

The role of all government is to expand. The role of all free people is to resist the expansion of government. The problem is that, besides the role of defending the shores and building the roads, there is very little agreement on where the role of the Federal government stops and individual and local responsibility begins.

As a result, we are constantly squabbling on this forum and others about what the role of the Federal government should be and what is our responsibility to fund it. Rather than simply rail against the tax system, however, you should test your own political resolve and see where you stand. Then decide if we need an income tax to fund all the programs that we take for granted:

-- Do we need a permanent military commitment in the Pacific, Europe, and the Middle East?

-- Do we need a national weather service?

-- Do we need to fund people's retirement and healthcare?

-- Do we need to prevent consenting adults from taking drugs?

-- Do we need to regulate the environment?

-- Do we need Federal disaster protection?

-- Do we need to regulate the financial markets to ensure transparent, lawful dealings?

-- Do we need dikes, dams, and canals to prevent flooding and ensure the transportation of goods?

-- Do we need a space program?

-- Do we need to be supporting farmers?

-- Do we need to guarantee bank deposits?

-- Do we need to fund local arts?

-- Do we need national parks?

The list goes on and on. Obviously, some of these are an absolute "Yes" while others are really subject to debate based on your political point of view. But the more things you say "Yes" to means that you must say "Yes" to higher and more pervasive taxation. And lest you think that the Democrats are the only ones slopping the hogs, think again. The Republicans are equally guilty of wholesale, reckless spending. And, collectively, we are all urging them on.

Sure, you may not approve of government funding for a crucifix immersed in urine, but chances are you approve of some other obscene expenditure. Maybe it's a weapon system that is found to not work. Maybe it's for a drug enforcement program that strips people of their right to due process. Maybe it's for Federal funding for some recreation center in your home town. In any event, we are all culpable and, by accepting a check from the Federal government, you are implicitly accepting the slavery of the current system.

[Bottomfeeder 244]

-- Do we need a permanent military commitment in the Pacific, Europe, and the Middle East?

No

-- Do we need a national weather service?

Yes. Paid for by cable television companies, who are morbidly obese, as a public service. That's privatization.

-- Do we need to fund people's retirement and healthcare?

No. Monies spent by congress to be refunded to the system to which it was stolen with interest.

-- Do we need to prevent consenting adults from taking drugs?

No. Who cares. If they come on or in my property with ill intent they will leave in a body bag.

-- Do we need to regulate the environment?

No. Just move where there is no polution.

-- Do we need Federal disaster protection?

No. State's Rights.

-- Do we need to regulate the financial markets to ensure transparent, lawful dealings?

No. Find the thieves and hang them.

-- Do we need dikes, dams, and canals to prevent flooding and ensure the transportation of goods?

Yes. The states should be handling this. If the money goes missing find the criminals and hang them. It's that simple, hang the bastards. That should send the message not to &%$# with the people.

-- Do we need a space program?

Yes and No. Not on a mission to Mars. And not to fund large government contracts that would waste money that could be used to benefit the people.

-- Do we need to be supporting farmers?

No. Let them grow what the market dictates.

-- Do we need to guarantee bank deposits?

No, We need to get rids of banks.

-- Do we need to fund local arts?

No

-- Do we need national parks?

Yes and No. Most are owned by the UN now. So why does it matter anymore? Bush has successfully cut down trees in these parks as a give away to lumber companies with no benefit for us. So why does it matter anymore? Get rid of the UN and take back our property.

The income tax goes to pay just the interest on the national debt to bankers who lend the money to the government with interest. Not one red cent goes to pay for government services.

They have other taxes to pay for those services you mentioned.

Here's a list of taxes that didn't exist 100 years ago:

Accounts Receivable Tax

Building Permit Tax

Capital Gains Tax

CDL License Tax

Cigarette Tax

Corporate Income Tax

Court Fines (indirect taxes)

Dog License Tax

Federal Income Tax

Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

Fishing License Tax

Food License Tax

Fuel Permit Tax

Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)

Hunting License Tax

Inheritance Tax Interest Expense (tax on the money)

Inventory Tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)

IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)

Liquor Tax

Local Income Tax

Luxury Taxes

Marriage License Tax

Medicare Tax

Property Tax

Real Estate Tax

Recreational Vehicle Tax

Road Toll Booth Taxes

Road Usage Taxes (truckers)

Sales Taxes

School Tax

Septic Permit Tax

Service Charge Taxes

Social Security Tax

State Income Tax

State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)

Telephone Federal Excise Tax

Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes

Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax

Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax

Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax

Telephone State and Local Tax

Telephone Usage Charge Tax

Toll Bridge Taxes

Toll Tunnel Taxes

Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)

Trailer Registration Tax

Utility Taxes

Vehicle License Registration Tax

Vehicle Sales Tax

Watercraft Registration Tax

Well Permit Tax

Workers' Compensation Tax

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/amberg1.html

Furthermore, I am totally against taxpayer fund federal retirement programs, including military. Let them take their chances in the markets like everyone else by including the money as income and allow them to invest it where they wish. They'll have plenty of time on their hands when the Republicans aren't in office starting unnecessary wars. The IRS agents, who will be unemployed, and will have to find real jobs that actually produce something besides fear in the heart of the average taxpayer. I say put them in farming fields picking fruit and veggies in heat to replace the deported illegal Mexicans.